Time to Trade Giroux?

[Howie58]

Here is a piece by Marcus Hayes of the Inquirer stating, in so many words, that Giroux is unlikely to be around for a Cup and his cap space could be deployed elsewhere.  Without saying yeah or nay on the trade, Giroux's benefit-cost calculus to the team will be a topic in the off-season to be determined in October and beyond.  

 

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/20170410_Flyers_should_trade_Claude_Giroux___Marcus_Hayes.html

 

One thing I agree with--Simmonds is heir apparent for Captain.  

[Samifan]

I would be shocked if he agreed to waive his NMC. He's already on record as saying he's not going anywhere. Now maybe if the flyers were to strip him of the C, that would anger him enough to want to waive it.

[Howie58]

I might be shocked too. He may be a Shane Doan-type who stays here as the face of the franchise.  But his consistent drop-off in points over the last four years has to worry our GM.  And I agree with Hayes--miracle aside, this team isn't elite for another 2-3 years.  At that point we are paying lots of dough for someone whose performance could be 2nd-3rd line-worthy.  Maybe a sense of "mortality" alters his thinking.  Martin St. Louis comes to mind. 

 

 

[murraycraven]

I really dont see him going anywhere.   First, he has that NMC which is going to be tough to get waived.  More importantly, I dont see any Team giving up fair value for that contract.   Simply put:  he is overpaid and he is nonperforming.   His numbers have been in decline the past few years so I think we are stuck with him.   

 

Let's hope he is healthier next year and at least able to help the Team.   

[radoran]

I see him in a very similar position to Mikko Koivu on the Wild - a guy playing first line that would do better playing second line. Which is what got Koivu going this season.

 

Granted Koivu is $1.5M cheaper, but he signed a 7-year deal at 29 and Giroux at 29 has 5 years left on his contract.

 

IF Giroux agreed to waive his clause and IF the Flyers were to trade him, they would likely need to retain $1-2M in salary (at least). Much like they would have to with Voracek and MacDonald.

 

That's about $6M worth of overpayment for those three...

 

I don't expect him to waive for a few more seasons at least.

 

Aside from getting some new faces on the blue line and in the blue paint, I don't see this team being much different in terms of results next season. Not through anything they've done, but just because there are clearly 3-4 better teams in the Metropolitan right off the bat and the Flyers are closer to the Devils (18 points) than they are to the auto-qualifier Blue Jackets (20 points).

 

And, yes, they had the fourth best home record in the Eastern Conference, but the three ahead of them were all in their Division.

 

The team is simply several orders of magnitude away from seriously competing. Sure they might "make the playoffs" but is anybody seriously picking the Leafs or Flames to "make some noise" in the playoffs?

 

I didn't think so.

[murraycraven]

15 minutes ago, radoran said:

I see him in a very similar position to Mikko Koivu on the Wild - a guy playing first line that would do better playing second line. Which is what got Koivu going this season.

 

Granted Koivu is $1.5M cheaper, but he signed a 7-year deal at 29 and Giroux at 29 has 5 years left on his contract.

 

IF Giroux agreed to waive his clause and IF the Flyers were to trade him, they would likely need to retain $1-2M in salary (at least). Much like they would have to with Voracek and MacDonald.

 

That's about $6M worth of overpayment for those three...

 

I don't expect him to waive for a few more seasons at least.

 

Aside from getting some new faces on the blue line and in the blue paint, I don't see this team being much different in terms of results next season. Not through anything they've done, but just because there are clearly 3-4 better teams in the Metropolitan right off the bat and the Flyers are closer to the Devils (18 points) than they are to the auto-qualifier Blue Jackets (20 points).

 

And, yes, they had the fourth best home record in the Eastern Conference, but the three ahead of them were all in their Division.

 

The team is simply several orders of magnitude away from seriously competing. Sure they might "make the playoffs" but is anybody seriously picking the Leafs or Flames to "make some noise" in the playoffs?

 

I didn't think so.

 

Not to turn the discussion here but Jake and G's contracts are the quintessential albatross around this Team's "plan."  The are grossly overpaid and not elite players in this league.   This alone is why I have always been a little suspect with Hextall's "plan."

 

As the kids come up and then resigned after their ELC it is going to be tough to manage the salary cap.    I think G is the most untouchable on this Team and for all the wrong reasons - IF we trade him we need to eat salary.   Why would a Team want a declining player that is paid like a top tier player in the league?  

 

Tough position and from where I stand fans can only hope that (1) G returns to form (not likely) or (2) the Flyers find a legit # 1 center so he can play 2C.   How they do that is anyone's guess....

Edited April 10, 2017 by murraycraven

[radoran]

5 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

Not to turn the discussion here but Jake and G's contracts are the quintessential albatross around this Team's "plan."  The are grossly overpaid and not elite players in this league.   This alone is why I have always been a little suspect with Hextall's "plan."

 

As the kids come up and then resigned after their ELC it is going to be tough to manage the salary cap.    I think G is the most untouchable on this Team and for all the wrong reasons - IF we trade him we need to eat salary.   Why would a Team want a declining player that is paid like a top tier player in the league?  

 

Tough position and from where I stand fans can only hope that (1) G returns to form (not likely) or (2) the Flyers find a legit # 1 center so he can play 2C.   How they do that is anyone's guess....

 

To be fair, Giroux wasn't Hextall's signing. That said, his bidding against himself on Voracek was a terrible miscalculation.

 

I am going to keep harping on this - but this team lacks goal scoring and neither Giroux nor Voracek have ever been prolific scorers.

 

Are there m/any examples of guys in their late 20s/early 30s blossoming into prolific scorers?

[murraycraven]

11 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

To be fair, Giroux wasn't Hextall's signing. That said, his bidding against himself on Voracek was a terrible miscalculation.

 

I am going to keep harping on this - but this team lacks goal scoring and neither Giroux nor Voracek have ever been prolific scorers.

 

Are there m/any examples of guys in their late 20s/early 30s blossoming into prolific scorers?

 

oh, I know that G was not Hexy's which often makes me questions his signing of Jake even more.   "Sure Jake, you just had a great career year and you are a RFA - here is 8M per year which puts you in the top tier of the league... wanna sign it?"

 

You'd think that Hextall and all his patience (or perceived patience) would have had the forethought to actually WAIT and see if Jake could replicate his career season.   But no... just throw him a contract, and again, over evaluate your very own player.     

 

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2017 by murraycraven

[mojo1917]

28's non- performance still yields the second highest point total on the team.

I think this season is an outlier, his production totals have been gradually decreasing, this season they've fallen off a cliff. 

I will bet a dollar he's a 65- 70 point player next year. Now do you want to be paying 8+ mill a season for that player ?

probably not, but he's of more value to the Flyers playing than he would be in a trade.  He is still the team's best player, he had a down year, I find it to be no coincidence that the rest of the team struggled too.

The pipe dream of giving the magical C to another player I find to be folly as well. What purpose does that serve ? There will come a time when a player like Provorov will assume a/the leadership role on the team and at that time 28 will step back.  

When has Simmonds been a captain ? how's he going to be better ?  he'll be different but will he be effective ?  That move makes more questions than it solves. 

This wasn't a good year and the team is still 6 games over .500 and 88 points.  If that's a terrible year, I'll take it. 

 

 

 

[mojo1917]

Oh and Marcus Hayes should stick to the Eagles and the Phillies, whenever he dips his toes into the hockey waters he's more trolling for click bait than he is actually making a salient point.

[murraycraven]

6 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

28's non- performance still yields the second highest point total on the team.

 

agree here... he is definitely not the player we watched this year but I dont believe he will ever return to what he was either.    My concern is that we could see a Mike Richards type of drop-off but that can happen to anyone.    

 

8 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I will bet a dollar he's a 65- 70 point player next year. Now do you want to be paying 8+ mill a season for that player ?

 

I would not be shocked...  but I also believe he is still grossly overpaid even if he returns to 70 points.

 

8 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

He is still the team's best player, he had a down year, I find it to be no coincidence that the rest of the team struggled too.

 

For my money Simmonds is the best player on this Team.   G is really, as it stand now, a PP specialist that can't produce in a 5v5 situation.   The issue here is that G is probably the second best player.   For this Team to begin to move forward and compete they NEED G to be the guy who leads them on the ice.   In all situations....

 

10 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

The pipe dream of giving the magical C to another player I find to be folly as well. What purpose does that serve ?

 

 agree with everything... removing the C is not going to do anything.  Flyers fans are always chasing the new shiny toy (idea) thinking it will change everything - removing the C won't do a damn thing.   

 

This Team will go as G goes....  simple as that.   Which right now is pretty scary....

[King Knut]

12 hours ago, Samifan said:

I would be shocked if he agreed to waive his NMC. He's already on record as saying he's not going anywhere. Now maybe if the flyers were to strip him of the C, that would anger him enough to want to waive it.

 

11 hours ago, Howie58 said:

I might be shocked too. He may be a Shane Doan-type who stays here as the face of the franchise.  But his consistent drop-off in points over the last four years has to worry our GM.  And I agree with Hayes--miracle aside, this team isn't elite for another 2-3 years.  At that point we are paying lots of dough for someone whose performance could be 2nd-3rd line-worthy.  Maybe a sense of "mortality" alters his thinking.  Martin St. Louis comes to mind. 

 

 

 

He'll waive his NMC the moment the team asks him to.  It's happened before and it'll happen again.  Roenick & Forseberg are just two examples.  The NMC is more of a deterrent than an actual restriction.  The chances are good if he was traded it would be to someplace he'd be happy to go anyway (Montreal, Ottawa most likely).  

 

However, if I'm Hextall, even if I get a willing partner, I'm not trading him unless I somehow have it locked in that John Tavares is signing a 5+ year deal with the Flyers.  I think another article details this, but who the heck are you going to get in return for Giroux at this point?  You're not going to get 3 First round picks.  You're not going to get a young superstar in the making.  You're probably not even going to get Simmonds and Schenn or Jake and Coots (although that's the most likely scenario... a handful of magic beans that you have cultivate over years into competitors and producers) and if you get luck they're pretty good.  So in essence, I'd only ever trade him if I KNEW I was able to sign a replacement 1C who is notably and obviously better.  John Tavares is the obvious option coming up.  He's the right age, he's got the skills and he needs a solid team behind him and oh look the Flyers will have one growing up at exactly that moment.  Downside?  You'll have to give him another absurd awful terrible contract that we'll all be complaining about in 4 years or so.

 

This is all not to say I think Giroux is going anywhere.  I'd be shocked if he were and not because of his NMC.

But because he's still a good player... but he's not the kind of player a team will give up the ghost for.  He's the kind of player a team that needs to prove something and with plenty of cap room will go for out of desperation to get beyond the second round (aka Montreal / Ottawa).  Not that we'd want him in the division, but I could see a team like the Caps or Ducks or Sharks going for him if they get booted early (and can't resign some of their big names).  

 

All this talk about his drop off in points and stripping his C is just so short sighted I don't even know what to say really.  Even when I was railing on him for being the absentee captain earlier this year, the thought of stripping his C was always silly to me.

 

And at the same time, while I was shredding him for not showing up and really complaining about not knowing what was going on, I never blamed him for not scoring as much as he used to.

 

I'll say this for the billionth and probably not the last time.  When the entire team is NOT scoring at even strength--and NO ONE was scoring at even strength all year but for the first two weeks and the last two weeks for some reason--blaming a single player who you think should be scoring more for not scoring enough is just useless.

 

Clearly there was a larger problem going on.  My guess is still that the larger problem was the defense being too porous andweak and  too many forwards having to play too deep in their own zone to mount successful transitions and attacks. To me it appears that Giroux has plenty left in the tank and has been suffering from whatever the recovery on that injury was and the fact that his defense was terrible.

 

If you want him to be scoring more points, complain about Hakstol who decided two weeks into the season that it would be better to have a chance at winning a ton of low scoring games than not being able to keep up in 7-6 games every other night.  It's not hard to score a lot of goals in this league if you have a little bit of talent.  It's extremely difficult to score a lot without giving up even more.  That's the way the league has developed and I think that's awesome because I love the game, not just the goals.  

 

 They team could have had an even worse record and SImmonds, Jake and Giroux could have put up 90 points each, Schenn could have had 80 and Coots 75, we get another 60 or so from Ghost and who knows what from Provo and everyone could have stopped complaining about the team with no talent that can't score, and just blamed the goalies even though the real culprit would have been that out of 8 D men on the roster, only 2 knows how to play stay at home D and one was older than the hills and can't keep up (Schultz) and the other is friggin' Manning. 

 

Provo is an amazing talent with great positioning sense and unbelievable skills and hockey sense.  He'll be a guy in the vein of Rico or Timmo.  His nickname even ends in an "o".  it's perfect.  But he ain't a stay at home guy.

I love Gudas and frankly his game developed over the year.  He didn't start as a Defensive D man, but he was getting there by the end of last year and this year was basically spent learning how to play the position without hitting anyone (p.s. that's a difficult thing to do, but the league decided Radko will get suspended anytime he checks someone).  Radko was still essentially a developing talent.

 

Which leaves you with MacDonald.  I don't call him the name you all do because A) it's a stupid nickname B)  It's really not his fault Homer game him an inexplicable sweetheart deal.  And as much as MacDonald rebounded and proved himself to be an NHL player this year, he's not a top pairing stay at home D man.

 

Next year will be fascinating on Defense.  I think Morin and Hagg will make life horribly difficult on MacDonald and Manning and there's a distinct possibility we'll see Sanheim as well.  Will they all be ready to perform?  I have no idea, but it'll be fun watching.  Throw in the possibility of Lindblom making the team out of camp and Vecchione unseating Read and there are plenty of fun storylines to watch for.  I mean the 4th line next year could literally be PEB, Vecchione and Raffl.  Anyway, it opens up a ton of fun and possibilities for GIroux.  unless they trade him and sign Tavares... which I'd kinda be okay with too.  

[Howie58]

K-Squared:

 

That is a thoughtful post and I concur with your assessment.  I suspect we'd get a 1st and prospects if....salary cap reduction were the ultimate objective, along with growing youngins.

 

I concur 100% on the D issue and suspect our poor offense and drop-off in PP performance does, in part, reflect a coaching decision to play a "structured" (using Coach Dave's phrase) game to compensate for a D that couldn't control the neutral zone.  And yes--it is possible our 4th line would be something more than a "checking/energy line," and actually contribute offensively, something the elite squads do.  

 

Next year will be a transition year.  I could see two very distinct seasons: one that ends with Turkey Day, and one that starts at Turkey Day + 1.  The first half will be a lot of line and D pair experimentation.  The second may actually be a nucleus for the future.

 

Goal leaves me a bit befuddled. But we should probably do a separate thread on that.

 

Howie

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

28's non- performance still yields the second highest point total on the team.

I think this season is an outlier, his production totals have been gradually decreasing, this season they've fallen off a cliff. 

I will bet a dollar he's a 65- 70 point player next year. Now do you want to be paying 8+ mill a season for that player ?

probably not, but he's of more value to the Flyers playing than he would be in a trade.  He is still the team's best player, he had a down year, I find it to be no coincidence that the rest of the team struggled too.

The pipe dream of giving the magical C to another player I find to be folly as well. What purpose does that serve ? There will come a time when a player like Provorov will assume a/the leadership role on the team and at that time 28 will step back.  

When has Simmonds been a captain ? how's he going to be better ?  he'll be different but will he be effective ?  That move makes more questions than it solves. 

This wasn't a good year and the team is still 6 games over .500 and 88 points.  If that's a terrible year, I'll take it. 

 

Thank you.

 

His point production has fallen off since Jagr and Laviolette left.  

He has ONE 90+ season. That was a peak.  Not the norm.  Since then he had (the equivalent of) an 82 point season and an 86 point season.  Not 93, but in a general range.  

 

He has scored fewer and fewer points for the past three years.  However over those three years the team has been utterly terrible.  No one's scored much.  

Everyone's screaming about SImmonds, but as great as Wayne is, he only put of 54 points this year and 30 of them were on the PP. 

 

What gives SImmonds his value is that he's been on the PK (playing well there) and providing a lot of energy and positivity.

 

"he's of more value to the Flyers playing than he would be in a trade."

 

This is the key.  Do people really think the leafs are going to trade Matthews for Giroux?  What do they think we're getting back? If another Matthews type player came along, do we really think the worst team in the league that year would trade the pick for Giroux?  

 

After seeing how he played at the end of this year, I do think he was held back by his recovery.  He shouldn't have gone to worlds at all, but I don't think that was really the cause of the season.  He had a double surgery that players who've had it admit has taken them over a year to recover from.  

 

He was playing on a team that had the chips stacked against it personnel wise from the start who were forced into playing a "better than nothing" Defensively oriented system because they couldn't keep the puck out of the net playing what Hakstol wanted to.

 

The best hope for the team and Giroux is that Morin and Hagg and maybe Sanehim are ready to roll with Hak's game in October.  I think we'll all be pleasantly surprised and much happier.

 

OR

(as I've said elsewhere) if Hextall can get his hands on Tavares, he can be free to ask Claude to waive whatever he wants.

 

[radoran]

59 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

28's non- performance still yields the second highest point total on the team.

I think this season is an outlier, his production totals have been gradually decreasing, this season they've fallen off a cliff. 

I will bet a dollar he's a 65- 70 point player next year. Now do you want to be paying 8+ mill a season for that player ?

probably not, but he's of more value to the Flyers playing than he would be in a trade.  He is still the team's best player, he had a down year, I find it to be no coincidence that the rest of the team struggled too.

The pipe dream of giving the magical C to another player I find to be folly as well. What purpose does that serve ? There will come a time when a player like Provorov will assume a/the leadership role on the team and at that time 28 will step back.  

When has Simmonds been a captain ? how's he going to be better ?  he'll be different but will he be effective ?  That move makes more questions than it solves. 

This wasn't a good year and the team is still 6 games over .500 and 88 points.  If that's a terrible year, I'll take it.

 

I wasn't really going to address Hayes' nonsense because it was nonsense. Agreed he should stick to sports he's more familiar with.

 

Quote

It would take a playoff-caliber team approaching the Flyers with an expensive veteran with an expiring contract they want to dump, as well as a prospect or draft pick.

 

Does that team even exist? Who are we talking about? Mikko Koivu? James Neal? Thomas Plekanec? Paul Stastny?

 

Rick Nash? Let's face it - they're not trading him within the Metro and those are really the only guys that fit the profile outlined (it wasn't hard to do that research even if Hayes didn't).

 

And, as perhaps the biggest Koivu fan on the board, I'm not so sure even I do that deal, much less Minnesota.

 

I don't see a scenario where they get back what would be worth parting with Giroux for. And I don't see this scenario playing out in the next few seasons. Teams aren't going to look at the last quarter of the season as an evaluation for a player with five more years on his deal (Homer isn't a GM anywhere else yet, is he?). They're going to want to see production increase to the 65-70 level and stay reliably there next season.

 

And, unless there is serious unrest in the locker room (there isn't), stripping him of the "C" simply doesn't make sense unless you're trying to ride him out of town (they aren't).

 

Unfortunately, I don't see a scenario where this plays out in the Flyers' favor. It's really just more evidence that "winning the trades" in the short term didn't actually win the Flyers very much in the long term.

 

And the #homercoaster rolls on.

 

59 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

This wasn't a good year and the team is still 6 games over .500 and 88 points.  If that's a terrible year, I'll take it.

 

There is something to be said for this. But the fly in the ointment is that they've simply been hovering around the 90 point level for 5 seasons while the top teams in the East have been significantly north of 100 points.

 

So, this isn't really a "terrible year" as you say (and I agree) but it's not just this year, it's been relatively the same for the past five.

 

And it really doesn't show much hope that it will significantly improve in the near-to-mid-range future.

[OccamsRazor]

[AJgoal]

No, but I would seriously consider leaving Jake unprotected in the expansion draft.

 

His contract could act as a deterrent, but he could also be a "star" that Vegas decides to nab. I like Jake's game a lot, but the opportunity to get out of that contract is tempting.

[murraycraven]

13 hours ago, AJgoal said:

No, but I would seriously consider leaving Jake unprotected in the expansion draft.

 

His contract could act as a deterrent, but he could also be a "star" that Vegas decides to nab. I like Jake's game a lot, but the opportunity to get out of that contract is tempting.

 

I suggested this a while ago as well.   I would leave him unprotected if I was Hextall and hope that LV picks him.   I like Jake but he is what he is and I don't ever see him being an elite player that will replicate his career year.   Not sure that LV would pick him but it is worth a shot and maybe it sends a message to Jake.   

 

I doubt it will happen but I am 100% behind the idea.   

[peter679]

Value I think is the key here and when I say value I say what's his value to this team?  out of his 9 years on the team he's - in the +/- like 5/6 times.  He's not a scorer, he can set up the guys ok but don't we have a ton of table setters?  We need closers!  People that score, people that don't monkey with the puck too much a sniper ooooh I'm sorry flyers but you need to score.  I don't know if he's a top Captain either, is he? is any of us in the locker room to know for sure?  

I have conversations with my buddy's all the time, and I say and have said for a very long time.. you need skill! You need people that can create and score.  Who does that here?  Does Hexy want that type of player? 

I like G alot, but realize he's not an 8+million dollar a year player, he's not what you want as your #1.  He's a #3 on a top team.  I think Jake would benefit from a true #1.  

I will also say Jagr made G and Hartnell alot of money .. it shows you how a skillful player can make alot happen and bump a team.. nobody is even close to Jagr (what was he 40? 42?) even at that age.. 

That being said, I think he's untradeable and the flyers are in Cap hell, and a lack of scoring even in the future.. which brings me too.  DOes Haks system hinder a skillful player?  Wrong thread but I wonder if Hak is hindering his players at times.

[King Knut]

On ‎4‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 11:18 AM, Howie58 said:

K-Squared:

 

That is a thoughtful post and I concur with your assessment.  I suspect we'd get a 1st and prospects if....salary cap reduction were the ultimate objective, along with growing youngins.

 

I concur 100% on the D issue and suspect our poor offense and drop-off in PP performance does, in part, reflect a coaching decision to play a "structured" (using Coach Dave's phrase) game to compensate for a D that couldn't control the neutral zone.  And yes--it is possible our 4th line would be something more than a "checking/energy line," and actually contribute offensively, something the elite squads do.  

 

Next year will be a transition year.  I could see two very distinct seasons: one that ends with Turkey Day, and one that starts at Turkey Day + 1.  The first half will be a lot of line and D pair experimentation.  The second may actually be a nucleus for the future.

 

Goal leaves me a bit befuddled. But we should probably do a separate thread on that.

 

Howie

 

Yeah I agree with all that.

On the goalie sadly I don't think we'll be able to start that thread until after the Vegas draft.  We're in limbo for a while.

[King Knut]

On ‎4‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 11:33 AM, radoran said:

It's really just more evidence that "winning the trades" in the short term didn't actually win the Flyers very much in the long term.

 

And it really doesn't show much hope that it will significantly improve in the near-to-mid-range future.

 

-Which trades are you talking about winning? 

 

-I disagree on improvement.  I think this team will surprise you next year both in how much they score and how well they do overall.  They will finally have some control of the roster.  Morin/Hagg/ Sanheim will have some serious kinks to work out to be sure (they can't all be like Provo) but just being able to match complemtary skill sets on Defense will make an amazing difference for the offense. 

 

I do not think the production of guys like Weal, Coots, Weise and the resurgence of Giroux at the end of this season is an accident or simply the results of other teams not trying.  I think we started to get a glimpse of how this team means to play the game.  Something we haven't been able to see for 4-5 years. 

[radoran]

4 minutes ago, King Knut said:

-Which trades are you talking about winning?

 

Richards/Crater. The trades that gave us Voracek, Simmonds, Schenn and Couturier - the large part of the current core.

 

4 minutes ago, King Knut said:

-I disagree on improvement.  I think this team will surprise you next year both in how much they score and how well they do overall.  They will finally have some control of the roster.  Morin/Hagg/ Sanheim will have some serious kinks to work out to be sure (they can't all be like Provo) but just being able to match complemtary skill sets on Defense will make an amazing difference for the offense. 

 

I do not think the production of guys like Weal, Coots, Weise and the resurgence of Giroux at the end of this season is an accident or simply the results of other teams not trying.  I think we started to get a glimpse of how this team means to play the game.  Something we haven't been able to see for 4-5 years. 

 

I don't disagree here. I just don't see where they are that much better that they go from being an 85-90 point team to a 100+ point team.

 

Again, they can "make the playoffs" but that's not the same as a real legit contender.

 

YMMV - which is fair. And we certainly shall see where we are when camp opens.

[King Knut]

6 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Richards/Crater. The trades that gave us Voracek, Simmonds, Schenn and Couturier - the large part of the current core.

 

 

I don't disagree here. I just don't see where they are that much better that they go from being an 85-90 point team to a 100+ point team.

 

Again, they can "make the playoffs" but that's not the same as a real legit contender.

 

YMMV - which is fair. And we certainly shall see where we are when camp opens.

 

I wasn't aware there was ever any question as to the fact that the Flyers LOST those trades in the short term.  It's only over the long term they have a chance of saving face on those trades for anyone realistically keeping track of such things.  Richards and Carter became the new "core" immediately making the team competitive because Briere, Timmo, Hartnell and Coburn came along with them. 

 

This new Core hasn't come together like that. 

 

I think they'll be that much better.  Honestly.  At least I'll be shocked if they aren't.

I think Hextall had a really good perspective on the team this year and how bad they got after the streak.

The win streak was a lot of OT and SO and 1 goal games.  Then they lost a lot of OT, SO and 1Goal games.

 

Essentially a LOT of games for this team could have gone either way.   They don't need to get A TON better for many of those games to go the other way.

 

They're record since the deadline was not just better 10-7-3? (some of this was because superior teams weren't trying very hard) but they're play was completely different.  That's far more encouraging to me than the increased goals or the record.  They're system was being executed for a change.  They were attempting a style of game they hadn't tried since the 2nd week of the season and it was going much better this time. 

 

Anyway, the team I see taking the ice next year could be a serious improvement because it will enable the Jakes and the G's and the Cootses, and hopefully Weises and Weals to do what they do better.  While hopefully protecting their own end and protecting whoever is in net a little better than they did for Mase and Neuvy this year.

 

Are they ECF bound like in 2008?  That would take a lot.  I think there will be too many rookies to actually excel in the playoffs, but they will be better. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[radoran]

@King Knut

 

I'm not saying it won't happen - just that I don't expect it to happen.

 

There are a lot of pieces that have to fall into place and a lot of them will be "new to the system" and/or "new to the league".

 

I certainly hope that they improve. Of course, that's what I was hoping for when I bought my 11-game partial plan this season.

 

("We Won The Trades" has been a mantra for Many since they happened)

[King Knut]

50 minutes ago, radoran said:

@King Knut

 

I'm not saying it won't happen - just that I don't expect it to happen.

 

There are a lot of pieces that have to fall into place and a lot of them will be "new to the system" and/or "new to the league".

 

I certainly hope that they improve. Of course, that's what I was hoping for when I bought my 11-game partial plan this season.

 

("We Won The Trades" has been a mantra for Many since they happened)

 

I think "we won" the VLC deal.  Outside of that, I think either both teams were happy and there was no winner or loser or both teams wanted such disparate things that saying someone won or lost is just irrelevant in a very complete way. 

 

Did we win the Coburn deal?  Yes.  We got a first round pick.

Did Tampa win the Coburn deal?  Yes.  They got a top 4 D man that complements the talent they already had. He helped them almost just about get to the finals.  They were happy to extend him. 

 

I know you probably agree, but even thinking about winners and losers in the Richards and Carter deals is ludicrous.  The two teams were after two completely disparate goals.  One wanted to push their team to the next level to win a cup.  They won two.  Of which both Richards and Carter were integral parts and frankly, I'm not sure either cup happens without them despite what many here say.  Those guys were animals on those runs.

 

The Flyers wanted to rebuild their core.  They did.  Is it as good?  It's hard to say.  What would this team have looked like over the past 5 years with Jagr, Bobrovsky and a healthy Pronger?  Richards and Carter had the advantage of a few players that have been absent from the new core.

 

Anyway, skepticism is good.  blind faith is bad.  blind skepticism is also bad. 

I'll just say that I have reason to feel positive and that if things were going to work, it would start to show next year and get better from there and I see evidence to support this.  I don't think the team was actually as bad as they were this year.  Something was getting in their way.  I think that something is going to be improved next year.  I think it's improved already.