Must it be the final year for our 1/1A Goaltenders?

[OccamsRazor]

52 minutes ago, fan4ever said:

Mason never gets any respect and it ticks me off!!!!

 

And posting those stats with the guys like Luke Schenn, Nick Schultz, Andrew Mcdonald Nick GrossmanN, Bruno Gervais, Kurtis Foster and Andre Meszaros.....yikes......that isn't a great cast to work with...  

[Poulin20]

So they have been more like 2A/B this year.  While it hasn't been their fault completely, they have not been stealing games for us like last year, instead they have been stealing points from us and gifting them to the other teams.

[flyercanuck]

4 minutes ago, Poulin20 said:

So they have been more like 2A/B this year.  While it hasn't been their fault completely, they have not been stealing games for us like last year, instead they have been stealing points from us and gifting them to the other teams.

 

Makes for easier contract negotiations though....so we got that going for us!

[Howie58]

Candidly, I'd love to see Lyons or Stolarz get a start....a test case.  Our duo looks out of it these days...agreed with Poulin they aren't making critical stops.  

[ruxpin]

Neuvirth has been simply horrible . 

[King Knut]

On 10/30/2016 at 7:09 PM, Howie58 said:

Candidly, I'd love to see Lyons or Stolarz get a start....a test case.  Our duo looks out of it these days...agreed with Poulin they aren't making critical stops.  

 

The way the defense is playing, I wouldn't want to screw up Lyons or Stolarz in the head.  This is a bad situation.  They shouldn't be brought up until the team sorts itself out defensively a little more.

 

A better goalie might steal a victory or two for a bad defense, but in the end it's a bad idea for both team and goalie.  No one sorts out how to be a good team that way.

 

Better to have a worse goalie so the team learns how to not give up as many chances.  

 

See:  Roman Cechmanek for historical reference.  

Dude stood on his head did an amazing job keeping the puck out of the net... the team never learned to play well in front of him as a result. They spent all their time trying to pounce on big rebounds and clear their zone.  never mounted a successful blue line defense or transition and ultimately they ended up playing much better in front of Boucher and Esche (who were in fact worse at stopping the puck, but better at helping the team play better overall).  

 

 

[Howie58]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

The way the defense is playing, I wouldn't want to screw up Lyons or Stolarz in the head.  This is a bad situation.  They shouldn't be brought up until the team sorts itself out defensively a little more.

 

A better goalie might steal a victory or two for a bad defense, but in the end it's a bad idea for both team and goalie.  No one sorts out how to be a good team that way.

 

Better to have a worse goalie so the team learns how to not give up as many chances.  

 

See:  Roman Cechmanek for historical reference.  

Dude stood on his head did an amazing job keeping the puck out of the net... the team never learned to play well in front of him as a result. They spent all their time trying to pounce on big rebounds and clear their zone.  never mounted a successful blue line defense or transition and ultimately they ended up playing much better in front of Boucher and Esche (who were in fact worse at stopping the puck, but better at helping the team play better overall).  

 

 

Knut:  I can't argue with your reasoning. But I worry when both goalies are sub .900 on percentage.  If the D stays this bad past Turkey Day, I will be worried, very worried. 

[King Knut]

3 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

Knut:  I can't argue with your reasoning. But I worry when both goalies are sub .900 on percentage.  If the D stays this bad past Turkey Day, I will be worried, very worried. 

 

 

Neither are doing the team any favors right now, but the D as a first pass offense generating machine is doing quite well.  Brandon Manning is like a damn plus 8.  

 

It's not that I think Mase and Neuvy are doing well.  They aren't .  But they are getting hung out to dry regularly and that won't be good for Lyons or Stolarz to step into.  

 

I'm still struggling to determine why the D is so bad.  Like a lot.  up and down the lineup, forwards and D men... they're just the opposite of last year.  It's weird.  

[Howie58]

I am wondering if the "paradigm" of defense-first was the driver last year, while the newly-mobile, offensively oriented D is having to "relearn" a D.  The personnel are different...not too much but different. Manning is a pleasant surprise. 

[Podein25]

28 minutes ago, King Knut said:

I'm still struggling to determine why the D is so bad.  Like a lot.  up and down the lineup, forwards and D men... they're just the opposite of last year.  It's weird.  

 

I've not watched enough this year so far to be speculating. My assumption is that it was a combination of poor 'tending and brain fart giveaways leading to great scoring chances, many of which have gone in. 

[King Knut]

15 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

I've not watched enough this year so far to be speculating. My assumption is that it was a combination of poor 'tending and brain fart giveaways leading to great scoring chances, many of which have gone in. 

 

This is the key.  When a higher percentage of the shots are higher quality chances, the higher the percentage of them is going to go in the net.    When you only give up perimeter shots and you keep the front porch clear of screens and tip ins, the lower the percentage of shots is going to go in.

 

One of the reasons Shot % while a great overall number can actually be deceptive.

 

If the Flyers don't give up a ton of shots, but the ones they give up are breakaways, then the save % for either goalie is going to be terrible.  

 

This isn't the case, as both Mase and especially Neuvy have had really soft ones get by, but there's an element of it at play.  

[Howie58]

Bringing the thread "home," you might ask if one of our goalies gets traded for a defender....even as a stop-gap?  Sub-par years means one or both leave the "organeyezhation."

 

[Podein25]

14 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

This is the key.  When a higher percentage of the shots are higher quality chances, the higher the percentage of them is going to go in the net.    When you only give up perimeter shots and you keep the front porch clear of screens and tip ins, the lower the percentage of shots is going to go in.

 

One of the reasons Shot % while a great overall number can actually be deceptive.

 

If the Flyers don't give up a ton of shots, but the ones they give up are breakaways, then the save % for either goalie is going to be terrible.  

 

This isn't the case, as both Mase and especially Neuvy have had really soft ones get by, but there's an element of it at play.  

 

I can't argue with any of that, but I'm not sure we're closer to diagnosing the problem...

[DaGreatGazoo]

23 minutes ago, Podein25 said:

 

I can't argue with any of that, but I'm not sure we're closer to diagnosing the problem...

Who wants to diagnose the problem?

 

I prefer just bitching about it. 

[King Knut]

40 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

Bringing the thread "home," you might ask if one of our goalies gets traded for a defender....even as a stop-gap?  Sub-par years means one or both leave the "organeyezhation."

 

 

I don't think either gets traded for a rental, and neither are playing well enough to go for a good player.

 

As evidenced by the fact that supposedly the Kings were talking to Hexy about Mason, but never thought of looking at Neuvy.

Not that anyone things Hexy was seriously considering mason and as was pointed out elsewhere, the kings would had to have traded back some serious salary in order to fit Mason under their cap (and it's not as if he makes an absurd amount either).  

 

Again, I think the thing out D needs most right now (besides MDZ and Schultz in the lineup over Mac) is coaching and time.

 

At this point, I think you're right... Neuvy and Streit can and should be traded at almost any point.  There's no real reason to hang on to either at this point.  

[King Knut]

15 minutes ago, DaGreatGazoo said:

Who wants to diagnose the problem?

 

I prefer just bitching about it. 

 

Honestly, I think besides the miscues like Provo's the biggest problem is a combination of positioning and lack of size.  

 

People love to trash Mac, but the fact of the matter is his partner is often out of position and Mac's left covering two men at once.  It's easy to complain about because it's hard to see on the replays.  

 

And then there's size.  Many many many of the goals so far have been tip ins and due to screens and or uncontrolled rebounds.  What this says to me is that the Flyers D is getting pushed around on their own front porch.  

 

Sometimes it's a guy being out of position again, but often it's just whoever is there getting outmuscled and beat to the puck or the screen/tip.

 

Mac while I give Mac the benefit of the doubt on positioning, I fully admit he's ATROCIOUS at this.  

Schultz is better at position and his presence, but for some reason they're not playing him.

 

Should Morin be out there learning how to do this at the NHL level NOW or is he better suited learning the fundamentals with 20 minutes every night in the AHL instead?  

 

Just my diagnosis.  What do you guys think?

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

33 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Should Morin be out there learning how to do this at the NHL level NOW or is he better suited learning the fundamentals with 20 minutes every night in the AHL instead?  

 

Just my diagnosis.  What do you guys think?

 

I was hoping Morin would make the big club this year. He had a fantastic pre-season. You can't go wrong playing 20+ minutes per night in the AHL. As well, there are a few things Morin needs to continue to work on with regards to his game that is easier to do in the AHL. I'd rather Morin get his footwork up to par down there than be exposed at the NHL level. Also, Morin could still use an additional 15 to 20 pounds to his frame. That's going to lower his center of gravity and it's going to make him much more sturdy and even nastier to play against. 

 

If the Flyers tank this year, that just means they're in line to add yet even more quality players to the pipeline. As well, if they're out of the playoffs by February, that allows them to shed some players who don't fit into future plans. Defenseman like Streit (a power play specialist in the last year of his deal) and Schultz (also in the last year of his deal), are valuable chips. If Hextall decides that he's going to move Matt Read (who's having a renaissance year), that's just another piece that can be used in the rebuild.

 

Now, in fairness, it's only 10 games into the season. A lot can change. I mentioned in another thread that this team was terrible to start last season and it wasn't until mid-season that they really caught fire. I still think that this club is going to go on a run. As for the goaltenders, they'll rebound. Mason is a notorious slow starter. I'd say by the start of December, Mason's numbers will improve to where they should be.

 

[flyercanuck]

18 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

I was hoping Morin would make the big club this year. He had a fantastic pre-season. You can't go wrong playing 20+ minutes per night in the AHL. As well, there are a few things Morin needs to continue to work on with regards to his game that is easier to do in the AHL. I'd rather Morin get his footwork up to par down there than be exposed at the NHL level. Also, Morin could still use an additional 15 to 20 pounds to his frame. That's going to lower his center of gravity and it's going to make him much more sturdy and even nastier to play against. 

 

If the Flyers tank this year, that just means they're in line to add yet even more quality players to the pipeline. As well, if they're out of the playoffs by February, that allows them to shed some players who don't fit into future plans. Defenseman like Streit (a power play specialist in the last year of his deal) and Schultz (also in the last year of his deal), are valuable chips. If Hextall decides that he's going to move Matt Read (who's having a renaissance year), that's just another piece that can be used in the rebuild.

 

Now, in fairness, it's only 10 games into the season. A lot can change. I mentioned in another thread that this team was terrible to start last season and it wasn't until mid-season that they really caught fire. I still think that this club is going to go on a run. As for the goaltenders, they'll rebound. Mason is a notorious slow starter. I'd say by the start of December, Mason's numbers will improve to where they should be.

 

 

 

Nice post BCF. Agree on all points. And I'm honestly more into picking up more chips for the future than concerned about a playoff appearance. If Read has an entire year of Old Matt level and someone comes knocking, I'm all in. Streit going is a no brainer, the highest bidder no matter what the bid.

[King Knut]

22 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

 

I was hoping Morin would make the big club this year. He had a fantastic pre-season. You can't go wrong playing 20+ minutes per night in the AHL. As well, there are a few things Morin needs to continue to work on with regards to his game that is easier to do in the AHL. I'd rather Morin get his footwork up to par down there than be exposed at the NHL level. Also, Morin could still use an additional 15 to 20 pounds to his frame. That's going to lower his center of gravity and it's going to make him much more sturdy and even nastier to play against. 

 

If the Flyers tank this year, that just means they're in line to add yet even more quality players to the pipeline. As well, if they're out of the playoffs by February, that allows them to shed some players who don't fit into future plans. Defenseman like Streit (a power play specialist in the last year of his deal) and Schultz (also in the last year of his deal), are valuable chips. If Hextall decides that he's going to move Matt Read (who's having a renaissance year), that's just another piece that can be used in the rebuild.

 

Now, in fairness, it's only 10 games into the season. A lot can change. I mentioned in another thread that this team was terrible to start last season and it wasn't until mid-season that they really caught fire. I still think that this club is going to go on a run. As for the goaltenders, they'll rebound. Mason is a notorious slow starter. I'd say by the start of December, Mason's numbers will improve to where they should be.

 

 

 

I find this: "If the Flyers tank this year, that just means they're in line to add yet even more quality players to the pipeline." to be unacceptable.  

 

They don't need to win a cup or anything this year, but there is not reason they're not better enough to make the playoffs and the second round at this point.  Accepting less for higher picks at this point is unacceptable.  If they can't compete with the crew they have, they should trade Giroux and Jake and Simmonds now and get what they can and plan on 5 years from now.

 

I honestly don't think they should be in rebuild mode anymore.  They need to be in getting the pieces they have up to NHL speed and moving what they don't need in order to fill in gaps.  Which ironically meant a sniper LW a month ago and now means (IMHO) a big strong yet semi mobile stay at home defenseman (who wouldn't want that right?)  I don't think they need Pronger (though that'd be nice).  Basically I think they need Coburn of 6 or 7 years ago.  I think Morin can be that and better.

 

A few more pounds will help him, but that's not going to happen this year.. especially if he's playing 20+ mins a night.  Maybe in 2 years time.  

 

That said, I'm ready to trade Streit and Schultz for whatever people are offering at any point. 

I say that liking Schultz and thinking they're making huge mistakes not playing him right now if they actually are to be winning.  

 

 agree about it being early.  I'm not concerned about the losses, I'm concerned about the complete and utter lack of defense and how odd it is that they're having the complete opposite problem from last year when they were losing because they couldn't score to save their lives.  

 

 

[fanaticV3.0]

Oh, heavens no. That’s a tradition with this organ-I-zation

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

23 hours ago, King Knut said:

 

 

I find this: "If the Flyers tank this year, that just means they're in line to add yet even more quality players to the pipeline." to be unacceptable.  

 

They don't need to win a cup or anything this year, but there is not reason they're not better enough to make the playoffs and the second round at this point.  Accepting less for higher picks at this point is unacceptable.  If they can't compete with the crew they have, they should trade Giroux and Jake and Simmonds now and get what they can and plan on 5 years from now.

 

I honestly don't think they should be in rebuild mode anymore.  They need to be in getting the pieces they have up to NHL speed and moving what they don't need in order to fill in gaps.  Which ironically meant a sniper LW a month ago and now means (IMHO) a big strong yet semi mobile stay at home defenseman (who wouldn't want that right?)  I don't think they need Pronger (though that'd be nice).  Basically I think they need Coburn of 6 or 7 years ago.  I think Morin can be that and better.

 

A few more pounds will help him, but that's not going to happen this year.. especially if he's playing 20+ mins a night.  Maybe in 2 years time.  

 

That said, I'm ready to trade Streit and Schultz for whatever people are offering at any point. 

I say that liking Schultz and thinking they're making huge mistakes not playing him right now if they actually are to be winning.  

 

 agree about it being early.  I'm not concerned about the losses, I'm concerned about the complete and utter lack of defense and how odd it is that they're having the complete opposite problem from last year when they were losing because they couldn't score to save their lives.  

 

 

 

Honestly, I think the Flyers overachieved last year and that they're coming down to earth this year with the additions of the younger players to the roster. I shouldn't have used the word tank because tanking implies no effort. If the Flyers are out of a playoff spot, but due to the rebuild and putting younger players in more prominent roles, then yeah, I'm all for trading Streit, Schultz and Read if it means that Sanheim, Morin and Leier all have prominent roles on the club going forward.

 

This is a club that is still rebuilding. They have a legit number one center and an emerging number one defender, but they still need a goalie to step up. As much as I like Mason, the slow starts he endures every year kill this club and momentum is such a big thing going forward. We all saw the tear they went on in the second half of last season and just how gassed Mason was come playoff time. He can't afford to make slow starts if they're going to rely on him to be the number 1 guy going forward.

 

As for the defense, I'm not worried. I'm glad this year that everyone is scoring. It's clear the forwards understand what Hakstol wants. I think the biggest issue facing the team is that two younger defensemen are playing very prominent roles and they're going to make mistakes. The veterans, who should be backing them up, aren't. Instead, it's the veterans that are roaming and the younger guys are expected to cover for the veterans. That's a big problem and that's something Hakstol and company need to address. Under no circumstances should Provorov and Gostisbehere be covering for MacDonald and Streit.

[flyercanuck]

On 11/1/2016 at 5:27 PM, King Knut said:

 

 

 agree about it being early.  I'm not concerned about the losses, I'm concerned about the complete and utter lack of defense and how odd it is that they're having the complete opposite problem from last year when they were losing because they couldn't score to save their lives.  

 

 

 

Hey, look at the bright side...maybe we're onto something new here, and off the "goalie year/coach year" thing.