Polaris922 Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 2 hours ago, WingNut722 said: That in itself is a testament to his high level of skill and physical ability, no?. Players typically end their careers for two main reasons...either they can no longer contribute to a high degree, or they are hampered by the lasting effects of injuries. No not really. Plenty of players outstayed their careers. Look I agree he's one of the all-time greats. I just differ on whether he's top five. I see plenty of players still wearing #4... So do we retire that too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 3 minutes ago, Polaris922 said: @ScottM Far more posts left him out than the one or two that included him in the top three was my point. I did say there were only a couple. Lol congrats on spending time finding them though. Dude, relax. Lol. Howe is almost always included in such conversations and has been included in everyone I've been involved in here. That's my only point here. For the record though, I didn't exactly spend time finding those since I remembered them well and knew where to look. Lol If you want to say you don't believe he's top five, fine. But you're going to find that you're in a small minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 43 minutes ago, ScottM said: Dude, relax. Lol. Howe is almost always included in such conversations and has been included in everyone I've been involved in here. That's my only point here. For the record though, I didn't exactly spend time finding those since I remembered them well and knew where to look. Lol If you want to say you don't believe he's top five, fine. But you're going to find that you're in a small minority. Relax? You'll know when I'm worked up and this is t it. Lol. Oh I dunno. Seems kind of split here as it is. Pittsburgh sports talk shows have been discussing him at length here and several commentators here waffle on him a bit as well. I get why he has the following he has. And it's not like saying fifth or sixth greatest all time is an insult. . Regardless of of all of this, if they retire Howe's number they pretty much have to retire Orr's wouldn't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 @Polaris922 I agree completely on your comment about Orr's jersey, and my answer there is the same. Theoretically, yes. Practically, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 3 hours ago, ScottM said: @Polaris922 I agree completely on your comment about Orr's jersey, and my answer there is the same. Theoretically, yes. Practically, no. And then people would demand for Lemieux's number to be retired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 1 hour ago, JagerMeister said: And then people would demand for Lemieux's number to be retired. True, and it would probably be easier to retire the 66, but even so, the precedent set would be a bad one. The 99 is done, but let's not go down that road again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 I think most fans have Orr, Gretzky and Mario entrenched into their top 3. I believe Howe is top 5, but once you get into cross comparing the org 6 era with others, stuff like pts per game is really thrown out the window. I also think all 3 are deserving of being mentioned in the top 3, but it's easier to leave Gordie out cause it's been so very long since he has been an impact player. I probably have Richard and Howe rounding out the top 5, but once you get by the top 3, it gets tough. When you start bringing in guys like Lafleur and Bossy, you must start talking about all round game, and Howe has them beat resoundingly in that dept. Mario, Wayne and Bobby are exempt from the all round thing, only because their pts per game was SO much better than their piers from their specific era. Just as far as impact on the game and all round vision, talent etc...I have no problem putting Larry Robinson into the top 5-6-7 slots approx. He was so talented and tough....and had such amazing vision and a feel for the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hf101 Posted June 17, 2016 Author Share Posted June 17, 2016 Quote "We're going to come up with something that's an enduring testament to Gordie," Commissioner Bettman said Thursday from his office in New York. "There will be something that appropriately celebrates his life and creates a lasting tribute to his immortality. It will be something that will be special and enduring and permanent." My guess is they will come up with a "Gordie Howe" Trophy not necessarily the Gordie Howe Hattrick winner, but an award for maybe something like the best "power forward" of the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 @hf101 Thats a good idea. But personally, if a trophy was made in his memory, I think it should aptly be based on best all around player. Similar to Selke, except it takes into account every conceivable aspect of the game. PIM, Goals, Assists. You name it. He was unequivocally proficient to masterful at every aspect of the game. I dont think there was anything he was below average on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluPuk Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 In a word, no. Gordie was a great player, but it's a dumb idea IMO. Oh, and for future reference, a "Gordie Howe hat trick" was a goal, an assist and a penalty, NOT a fight. Look it up, he hardly ever dropped the gloves. He didn't need to.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 1 hour ago, BluPuk said: In a word, no. Gordie was a great player, but it's a dumb idea IMO. Oh, and for future reference, a "Gordie Howe hat trick" was a goal, an assist and a penalty, NOT a fight. Look it up, he hardly ever dropped the gloves. He didn't need to.... The Gordie Howe Hat Trick has become goal/assist/fight through the years whether that was the original or not. Funny thing is he only did that twice I think? So many others have trumped that line. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yave1964 Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 As brilliant as his career on the ice was he meant as much if not more to the game in retirement, he was the John Wayne of the game, bigger than life. He demanded awe just by his presence. But no, sorry I just see no reason to retire his number. I agree with 'Mr. Hockey' as a name for him, but to retire his number would not be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 If the majority disagree on this, then Wayne Gretzky's number should have never been retired. IMO.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 18 hours ago, jammer2 said: I think most fans have Orr, Gretzky and Mario entrenched into their top 3. I believe Howe is top 5, but once you get into cross comparing the org 6 era with others, stuff like pts per game is really thrown out the window. I also think all 3 are deserving of being mentioned in the top 3, but it's easier to leave Gordie out cause it's been so very long since he has been an impact player. I probably have Richard and Howe rounding out the top 5, but once you get by the top 3, it gets tough. When you start bringing in guys like Lafleur and Bossy, you must start talking about all round game, and Howe has them beat resoundingly in that dept. Mario, Wayne and Bobby are exempt from the all round thing, only because their pts per game was SO much better than their piers from their specific era. Just as far as impact on the game and all round vision, talent etc...I have no problem putting Larry Robinson into the top 5-6-7 slots approx. He was so talented and tough....and had such amazing vision and a feel for the game. I personally have Howe interchangeably at third or second place. Unquestionably above Lemieux. The thing is, at worst. Howe was proficient at a skill. The quality of his longevity is unprecedented in any sport IMO, because the duration in which he was in consideration for being a top 5 player in the league is astounding. Unparalleled. I don't give points for what if's. Yes, Lemieux would be the best offensive force in hockey history if not for the great one. But even then, he doesn't rival much less reach the numbers Gretzky produced in his prime. Besides, saying Lemieux is a superior offensive player to Howe based on raw numbers is an incredibly flawed way at comparing the two. One has to dwelve into advanced numbers to appreciate how Gordie dominated his peers offensively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 18 hours ago, JagerMeister said: I personally have Howe interchangeably at third or second place. Unquestionably above Lemieux. The thing is, at worst. Howe was proficient at a skill. The quality of his longevity is unprecedented in any sport IMO, because the duration in which he was in consideration for being a top 5 player in the league is astounding. Unparalleled. I don't give points for what if's. Yes, Lemieux would be the best offensive force in hockey history if not for the great one. But even then, he doesn't rival much less reach the numbers Gretzky produced in his prime. Besides, saying Lemieux is a superior offensive player to Howe based on raw numbers is an incredibly flawed way at comparing the two. One has to dwelve into advanced numbers to appreciate how Gordie dominated his peers offensively. Here's the thing about ranking these guys as far as I'm concerned. Howe and Orr were the guys who could do everything well. And by well, I mean very well. Those guys really didn't have areas that they were "barely passable" in. Then, I look at Gretzky. He certainly wasn't the smoothest skater, and he couldn't handle physical play. Then, I look at Lemieux. While he's definitely a top four guy with me, and while I see the arguments people make for him, I agree that a lot of the points in his favor are "what if's." As for the offensive comparison, while the raw numbers that Howe put up pale in comparison to Lemieux's, that is to be expected when their eras are taken into consideration. The thing to keep in mind there is that Howe was a six-time scoring champ, just the same as Lemieux. All of that taken together is why I've come to the point that Orr and Howe are my top two, followed by Gretzky, and then Lemieux. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 On 6/17/2016 at 3:58 AM, BluPuk said: In a word, no. Gordie was a great player, but it's a dumb idea IMO. Oh, and for future reference, a "Gordie Howe hat trick" was a goal, an assist and a penalty, NOT a fight. Look it up, he hardly ever dropped the gloves. He didn't need to.... He definitely didn't find a lot of willing combatants. Just ask Lou Fontinato what it was like. The linesman said it was the worst SOUNDING beating he ever heard, akin to wood being chopped over and over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 On 6/17/2016 at 4:08 PM, JagerMeister said: I personally have Howe interchangeably at third or second place. Unquestionably above Lemieux. The thing is, at worst. Howe was proficient at a skill. The quality of his longevity is unprecedented in any sport IMO, because the duration in which he was in consideration for being a top 5 player in the league is astounding. Unparalleled. I don't give points for what if's. Yes, Lemieux would be the best offensive force in hockey history if not for the great one. But even then, he doesn't rival much less reach the numbers Gretzky produced in his prime. Besides, saying Lemieux is a superior offensive player to Howe based on raw numbers is an incredibly flawed way at comparing the two. One has to dwelve into advanced numbers to appreciate how Gordie dominated his peers offensively. I dunno bro, I dunno. Mario was an amazing athlete in his own right. One of the most talented guys to play any sport. His stickhandling, combined with his moves and speed, an unstoppable combo. No disrespect to Gordie, but if the two played in their primes, Mario would dominate. He had the vision that Howe lacked, he turned so-so guys into stars and made stars into superstars. I go back to the show Mario put on in the finals against Minnesota. Some of those goals were jaw dropping, Mario basically toying with inferior skill.....as good as Howe was, he never took over a final like that, made it into a one man show. The other thing to remember is the AMAZING legal beatings that Mario was subjected to. I hated the guy but have to admit, some of the stuff the NHL allowed him to endure was criminal. Not to say the org 6 was a tea party, but the stickwork against Mario, really in that whole era was crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 25 minutes ago, jammer2 said: I dunno bro, I dunno. Mario was an amazing athlete in his own right. One of the most talented guys to play any sport. His stickhandling, combined with his moves and speed, an unstoppable combo. No disrespect to Gordie, but if the two played in their primes, Mario would dominate. He had the vision that Howe lacked, he turned so-so guys into stars and made stars into superstars. I go back to the show Mario put on in the finals against Minnesota. Some of those goals were jaw dropping, Mario basically toying with inferior skill.....as good as Howe was, he never took over a final like that, made it into a one man show. The other thing to remember is the AMAZING legal beatings that Mario was subjected to. I hated the guy but have to admit, some of the stuff the NHL allowed him to endure was criminal. Not to say the org 6 was a tea party, but the stickwork against Mario, really in that whole era was crazy. Mario would dominate? Mario would go crying to the refs that Gordie was playing too tough. I agree Lemieux possessed more God-given talent and size. His skill level was off the charts for a man his size. There is no disputing that. It's been a long time since we've seen him play....Gordie, at a year older than Mario is now, was still putting up 41 points in the NHL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 On 6/17/2016 at 9:42 AM, yave1964 said: As brilliant as his career on the ice was he meant as much if not more to the game in retirement, he was the John Wayne of the game, bigger than life. He demanded awe just by his presence. But no, sorry I just see no reason to retire his number. I agree with 'Mr. Hockey' as a name for him, but to retire his number would not be right. Well said. I think one has to look at the other three major sports in this instance as examples of why/why not to retire a number. I said earlier - baseball and Jackie Robinson is such a special case and has such historical significance that it can easily be justified. Hockey and Gretzky I am "OK" with if for no other reason that he was THAT much better than the "next" guy. I can think of no other player in any of the major sports who fits either of those criteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagerMeister Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 3 hours ago, jammer2 said: I dunno bro, I dunno. Mario was an amazing athlete in his own right. One of the most talented guys to play any sport. His stickhandling, combined with his moves and speed, an unstoppable combo. No disrespect to Gordie, but if the two played in their primes, Mario would dominate. He had the vision that Howe lacked, he turned so-so guys into stars and made stars into superstars. I go back to the show Mario put on in the finals against Minnesota. Some of those goals were jaw dropping, Mario basically toying with inferior skill.....as good as Howe was, he never took over a final like that, made it into a one man show. The other thing to remember is the AMAZING legal beatings that Mario was subjected to. I hated the guy but have to admit, some of the stuff the NHL allowed him to endure was criminal. Not to say the org 6 was a tea party, but the stickwork against Mario, really in that whole era was crazy. But again, what Howe had in spades was quality years of longevity. Including WHA, He has been top ten in assists 26 times, a top ten point producer 25 times, and among the top ten goalscorers 19 times, and a hart candidate for 20 years (NHL only). Not to mention, we have no idea how Gordie Howe would do in the 80s, but at the age of 40, he reached his highest point total. But not because he was a better player at 40 then he was in his prime, but more so attributed to the fact that the league scoring started to increase rapidly. So envision him in the 80s, in the highest scoring league, with multiple low quality teams due to expansion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 5 hours ago, flyercanuck said: Mario would dominate? Mario would go crying to the refs that Gordie was playing too tough. I agree Lemieux possessed more God-given talent and size. His skill level was off the charts for a man his size. There is no disputing that. It's been a long time since we've seen him play....Gordie, at a year older than Mario is now, was still putting up 41 points in the NHL. Not to mention (and this is going down a dark path) Mario may well not have survived his cancer had he been born around the same time as Howe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 7 hours ago, flyercanuck said: Mario would dominate? Mario would go crying to the refs that Gordie was playing too tough. I agree Lemieux possessed more God-given talent and size. His skill level was off the charts for a man his size. There is no disputing that. It's been a long time since we've seen him play....Gordie, at a year older than Mario is now, was still putting up 41 points in the NHL. I'm not disputing the greatness of Gordie, I just in good conscience, can't put him ahead of Mario all time wise. I must admit, I saw Mario's whole career, but only caught the tail end of Gordie's storied career. I just think Mario was on another level. In many ways, it's like comparing apples to oranges. Howe had the longevity that Mario lacked (no fault of his own) and the abrasive side of his game that Mario was missing....but the stuff Mario had, namely that amazing knowledge of what was going to happen before it did...Howe did not have that God given talent, at least what I remember. For myself, if you want in my top 3 of all time, you must be able to predict what is going to happen, that special vision that sets the true elite apart from the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 7 hours ago, flyercanuck said: Mario would dominate? Mario would go crying to the refs that Gordie was playing too tough. If the two were on the ice at the same time, and Mario wanted to keep the puck away from Howe, he would be able to pull it off. The wicked long reach and the sheer size of him combined with his speed made it virtually impossible to get the puck away from him if he really wanted to keep it. Of course, the kind of info I'm missing on Howe is stuff like, how was his stamina....did he get stronger as the game went on? Not being privy to his prime years leaves a bit of an admitted blank spot on some of this stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 13 hours ago, jammer2 said: If the two were on the ice at the same time, and Mario wanted to keep the puck away from Howe, he would be able to pull it off. The wicked long reach and the sheer size of him combined with his speed made it virtually impossible to get the puck away from him if he really wanted to keep it. If he wanted to keep the puck away....from GORDIE HOWE....he would? Gordie Howe? I saw Mario turtle from Al Conroy. If Gordie wanted the puck from Mario he'd just take it. Like he did with anyone else. 13 hours ago, jammer2 said: Of course, the kind of info I'm missing on Howe is stuff like, how was his stamina....did he get stronger as the game went on? Not being privy to his prime years leaves a bit of an admitted blank spot on some of this stuff. How was his stamina? You're asking about a guy who played into his 50s. Does this guy look like he has a problem with strength? Or stamina? Wayne Gretzky calls him the best ever. So does Bobby Orr. I'll take their word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 2 hours ago, flyercanuck said: If he wanted to keep the puck away....from GORDIE HOWE....he would? Gordie Howe? I saw Mario turtle from Al Conroy. If Gordie wanted the puck from Mario he'd just take it. Like he did with anyone else. How was his stamina? You're asking about a guy who played into his 50s. Does this guy look like he has a problem with strength? Or stamina? Wayne Gretzky calls him the best ever. So does Bobby Orr. I'll take their word. His teammates had their own nickname for Howe: "Power". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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