Claude Giroux

[flyercanuck]

@icehole

 

I agree Philly needs some toughness if they want to become a contender. It's part of what makes Simmonds more valuable than your typical 25-30 goal scorer...he's an SOB to play against and wreaks havoc in front of the net. I've always appreciated the Cam Neely/Rick Tocchet/Jerome Iginla type player. Getzlaf/Perry/Chara/Byfuglien all bring that to their teams. Hopefully Goulbourne works out in that dept.

[Bertmega]

I hope you didnt misunderstand the guy that wants a fighter instead of Giroux...did you?

No I see what you are saying, they certainly could use a little grit in their top nine.

 

I was poking fun at another poster that has a unwarranted disdain for the current Flyers captain. Nobody that isn't on a steady diet of Lithium and Wild Turkey would want to trade Giroux for Rockin' Riley Cote part deux. 

[mojo1917]

@icehole

I agree on all counts concerning Vandevelde.  He's okay but I would not think twice about replacing him.

I think Ryan White is the "new tough guy" in the league.  He has pretty good hands , pretty good wheels and plays heavy, he can throw the mitts if he needs to but meh, the staged fight is over. He is hard to play against and that's what I like about him. 

 

I don't think we're icing a team of sissy's though,  I think PEB plays a courageous game, he takes a hit to make a play, he pursues the puck, , he'll deliver a hit. Simmonds plays with sandpaper, Giroux both Schenn's Laughton, MDZ, Gudas Ghost will hit you he thinks he can get away with it...i actually think we have a decent amount of toughness on the roster, it's not the old school toughness and I wouldn't mind adding a Clutterbuck or in his prime Iginla but I don't think we're icing a team of figure skaters.

[icehole]

No I see what you are saying, they certainly could use a little grit in their top nine.

I was poking fun at another poster that has a unwarranted disdain for the current Flyers captain. Nobody that isn't on a steady diet of Lithium and Wild Turkey would want to trade Giroux for Rockin' Riley Cote part deux.

I think Giroux is one of the toughest guys on the team. When he gets angry, you can tell because he starts throwing his shoulders around and roughing people up. We need more of that. Unfortunately, the rest of the team does not have that. Even simmonds disappoints me with his toughness sometimes. I know he's tough as nails but he tends to shy away from situations I think he should get into.

[murraycraven]

Bertmega, on 10 Dec 2015 - 07:25 AM, said:

@flyercanuck

Well he did loose the last fight he was in and it is glaringly obvious that the Flyers need a "tough fighter".....

I think this time we need a tough fighter that is maybe a 90 on the "toughfighter scale of not so logical measurements" as opposed to an 87... we have seen what the 87 does Bert - and it ain't too good If only we could bring in a European Toughfighter!

[murraycraven]

@JagerMeister

 

They aren't wearing Cooperalls...so we got that going for us.

 

 

which is nice....

[Bertmega]

I think this time we need a tough fighter that is maybe a 90 on the "toughfighter scale of not so logical measurements" as opposed to an 87... we have seen what the 87 does Bert - and it ain't too good If only we could bring in a European Toughfighter!

Solid GOLD

[mojo1917]

@JagerMeister

 

They aren't wearing Cooperalls...so we got that going for us.

Hey time will tell on that one buddy... time. will. tell. 

[radoran]

I'd love for Giroux to score more. Or anyone else on the Flyers for that matter. As it stands right now Giroux is 2 goals behind Malkin, 1 behind Jeff Carter. And a whopping 3 behind worlds greatest goal scorer Alex Ovechkin. 1 behind Stamkos. 2 behind Tavares. Tied with Corey Perry. Ahead of Phil Kessel.

 

Yeah, 3-on-3 has really worked wonders for some guys' point totals, hasn't it? #statistics Mark my words - the league will start breaking out OT points much the way they acquiesced to Roger Neilson's complaining about the W/L/OTL and "regulation wins"

 

Crazily, the Flyers are 4-5 in games in which Giroux scores this year. On the flip side, he has points in every OTW this season.

 

@radoran how about lets not hold Giroux culpable for any of the incompetence that is the flyers.. He's been among the elite since 2010. Let the folks here have something to enjoy, because quite frankly there ain't much to celebrate when it comes to the current flyers.

 

 

Playoffs would be nice.A cup even better. Giroux is about the last guy on the team I blame for them NOT being there though.

 

I guess I just don't "enjoy" personal achievements in a team game to the extent others do.

 

And I clearly stated in my original post that it's not "all on Giroux" and referenced the real culprit - Paul Holmgren.

 

Maybe we can just put "Celebrating Claude Giroux" and have that be the topic, as opposed to - as the original post in the thread does - backhandledly referencing another poster on the site (phlfly) and his misguided obsession with Giroux.

 

Because at that point, the topic becomes one of "see? I'm right!" as opposed to "rah rah Giroux."

 

 

Giroux has his faults, but so does every player. I think he is a top 5-10 player in the league.

 

And when you look at points per game that certainly bears out that statement. Over this time period he's clearly a Top Ten player in the league - pointswise. There isn't an argument about that, because it's true.

 

I'm not arguing that he's not a great player. I'm arguing the results of the team that he's the captain of - and, again, it's not all on Giroux (#homercoaster).

 

Pointing out who his linemates are (Raffl) or other deficiencies of the roster (defense) acknowledges my point that it's not all on Giroux.

 

You want to take it up with briere48 or phlfly? Go ahead. Lord knows I do.

 

 

 

Points is the most important stat in the league. Either you scored a goal or you made a play for one of your teammates to score a goal. Without points, you win 0 games.

 

I disagree. I believe goals are the most important stat in the league. Assists - especially second assists - are too often doled out in this league like candy corn at a Halloween party.

 

Case in point, of three teams who had two players in the top ten in points last season (WAS, DAL, PHL) two of them missed the playoffs. The leading points guy on the Cup winner was 23rd overall.

 

Now, we can certainly say that Toews might have been higher if Kane hadn't missed 21 games of the season - but that line of reasoning is exactly why Giroux is the "first player to 400" in this decade. Other players who have higher points per game were injured. That's where, for me, the whole "first to 400" thing is "meaningless" - it relies on outside events (injury to other players) to be true. Just like the Comcast SportsNet stenography of "most points since a point in time before which the statement wouldn't be true" isn't satisfying for me.

 

In the end, I've always said I see hockey as the ultimate team game and, as such, individual achievements don't really mean that much to me in the absence of team achievement. I root for the crest on the front, not the name on the back.

 

I'd also have less of an issue with touting points totals if that was cleared up to be more than "the last two guys to touch the puck before the goal" because there are many times that the second "assist" had (IMO) little to do with the outcome of the play.

 

Others' mileage may vary on the subject. That's why it's a discussion forum and not a puck bunny "we   player X" forum.

[icehole]

@icehole

I agree on all counts concerning Vandevelde. He's okay but I would not think twice about replacing him.

I think Ryan White is the "new tough guy" in the league. He has pretty good hands , pretty good wheels and plays heavy, he can throw the mitts if he needs to but meh, the staged fight is over. He is hard to play against and that's what I like about him.

I don't think we're icing a team of sissy's though, I think PEB plays a courageous game, he takes a hit to make a play, he pursues the puck, , he'll deliver a hit. Simmonds plays with sandpaper, Giroux both Schenn's Laughton, MDZ, Gudas Ghost will hit you he thinks he can get away with it...i actually think we have a decent amount of toughness on the roster, it's not the old school toughness and I wouldn't mind adding a Clutterbuck or in his prime Iginla but I don't think we're icing a team of figure skaters.

I dont know exactly what Im looking for. I guess Im looking for "nastiness" more than just being tough. All those flyers you named besides Gudas and maybe white may be tough but they're not nasty. They all seem like "polite" players.

I would love to have that Wilson kid from washington. You don't want to mess with him but he could also score the occasional goal. I was a Rinaldo fan but I wasn't too upset to get a 3rd rounder for him because he just didn't add enough offensively.

[King Knut]

Giroux has his faults, but so does every player. I think he is a top 5-10 player in the league. Points is the most important stat in the league. Either you scored a goal or you made a play for one of your teammates to score a goal. Without points, you win 0 games.

Now if we were praising him for his corsi numbers, Id join in with you. Corsi is a useless stat.

If you score 100 points, you're a top notch NHL player. If you score 100 points but the opposition scores 101 while you're on the ice, who gives a rip how many points you score?

Points are vital, but there are mitigating factors.

I'm not just talking about plus minus as that's inherently flawed. Just that there is more to the game than points.

I think it's easy to Misinterpret Corsi and other "advanced analytics".

They're not like points where you can say, "if we score more points tonight we will win we we should try to score more points". That's pretty simplistic.

Think about it backwards and you'll arrive ad analytics. Look at all the games and take all the teams that scored more points and won the game.

Now look at what other measurable factors are in play for those victorious teams.

Corsi isn't derived at by a theory that, "hey maybe if we enter the zone and shoot more than them, we'll win, whether we hit the net or not." It's derived at backwards by noticing that overwhelmingly the teams that do that more tend to score more points than whoever they play and therefore win more.

It is by the very definition of how it was determined not a useless stat any more than how many points you have is a useless stat. You start with the goal (winning) and work backward.

Now just telling your team, "enter the zone and shoot the puck close to the net"? That's a useless application of something like Corsi. You have to have more involved.

Just like scoring points isn't enough. You have to keep the other guy from scoring even more than you do.

[icehole]

Yeah, 3-on-3 has really worked wonders for some guys' point totals, hasn't it? #statistics Mark my words - the league will start breaking out OT points much the way they acquiesced to Roger Neilson's complaining about the W/L/OTL and "regulation wins"

Crazily, the Flyers are 4-5 in games in which Giroux scores this year. On the flip side, he has points in every OTW this season.

I guess I just don't "enjoy" personal achievements in a team game to the extent others do.

And I clearly stated in my original post that it's not "all on Giroux" and referenced the real culprit - Paul Holmgren.

Maybe we can just put "Celebrating Claude Giroux" and have that be the topic, as opposed to - as the original post in the thread does - backhandledly referencing another poster on the site (phlfly) and his misguided obsession with Giroux.

Because at that point, the topic becomes one of "see? I'm right!" as opposed to "rah rah Giroux."

And when you look at points per game that certainly bears out that statement. Over this time period he's clearly a Top Ten player in the league - pointswise. There isn't an argument about that, because it's true.

I'm not arguing that he's not a great player. I'm arguing the results of the team that he's the captain of - and, again, it's not all on Giroux (#homercoaster).

Pointing out who his linemates are (Raffl) or other deficiencies of the roster (defense) acknowledges my point that it's not all on Giroux.

You want to take it up with briere48 or phlfly? Go ahead. Lord knows I do.

I disagree. I believe goals are the most important stat in the league. Assists - especially second assists - are too often doled out in this league like candy corn at a Halloween party.

Case in point, of three teams who had two players in the top ten in points last season (WAS, DAL, PHL) two of them missed the playoffs. The leading points guy on the Cup winner was 23rd overall.

Now, we can certainly say that Toews might have been higher if Kane hadn't missed 21 games of the season - but that line of reasoning is exactly why Giroux is the "first player to 400" in this decade. Other players who have higher points per game were injured. That's where, for me, the whole "first to 400" thing is "meaningless" - it relies on outside events (injury to other players) to be true. Just like the Comcast SportsNet stenography of "most points since a point in time before which the statement wouldn't be true" isn't satisfying for me.

In the end, I've always said I see hockey as the ultimate team game and, as such, individual achievements don't really mean that much to me in the absence of team achievement. I root for the crest on the front, not the name on the back.

I'd also have less of an issue with touting points totals if that was cleared up to be more than "the last two guys to touch the puck before the goal" because there are many times that the second "assist" had (IMO) little to do with the outcome of the play.

Others' mileage may vary on the subject. That's why it's a discussion forum and not a puck bunny "we player X" forum.

Goals is the most important stat but you dont believe in individual stats? Goals is the most individualistic (?) stat there is. Points, which include assists, involve your teammates.

If goals are more important than points, where did the hawks rank in goals by individuals? Did the top goal scorers go farther in the playoffs?

I'd like to recognize team stats more too but unfortunately there's not much to look at. Having a guy with more points this decade than any other player is pretty impressive to me. With the fire power on other teams, a flyer being #1 in any category is shocking.

[radoran]

Goals is the most important stat but you dont believe in individual stats? Goals is the most individualistic (?) stat there is. Points, which include assists, involve your teammates.

If goals are more important than points, where did the hawks rank in goals by individuals? Did the top goal scorers go farther in the playoffs?

I'd like to recognize team stats more too but unfortunately there's not much to look at. Having a guy with more points this decade than any other player is pretty impressive to me. With the fire power on other teams, a flyer being #1 in any category is shocking.

Yano, watching tonight I think I can put it into words.

I have a lot of good memories with Giroux. I don't really have great memories since The Shift. And that was a Long Time Ago.

You called it a nastiness in another post. I think that's it. As I said to aziz on Another Thread, I want an edge. Some pointy bits. Something that shows a real Desire.

I don't see that. And until I do, Giroux scores a lot of points like a Mats Sundin or a Sedin brother does. And, unfortunately, the common factor there is zero championships.

It's not "all their fault" but they do bear SOME responsibility DESPITE their obvious talent.

And I really REALLY don't want too get excited about being the equivalent of the Maple Leafs or Canucks.

YMMV, which is totally fair.

But I had all four teams in their respective final at 12 in 1980 and I have all of TWO championships since.

Leading the league in points, batting average, ERA, yards, plays run, etc. doesn't make me warm and fuzzy.

[icehole]

Yano, watching tonight I think I can put it into words.

I have a lot of good memories with Giroux. I don't really have great memories since The Shift. And that was a Long Time Ago.

You called it a nastiness in another post. I think that's it. As I said to aziz on Another Thread, I want an edge. Some pointy bits. Something that shows a real Desire.

I don't see that. And until I do, Giroux scores a lot of points like a Mats Sundin or a Sedin brother does. And, unfortunately, the common factor there is zero championships.

It's not "all their fault" but they do bear SOME responsibility DESPITE their obvious talent.

And I really REALLY don't want too get excited about being the equivalent of the Maple Leafs or Canucks.

YMMV, which is totally fair.

But I had all four teams in their respective final at 12 in 1980 and I have all of TWO championships since.

Leading the league in points, batting average, ERA, yards, plays run, etc. doesn't make me warm and fuzzy.

I know what you mean...it's hard to get excited about anything these days. My brother and I were just talking about the shift a few days ago. Those are the days of me sitting on the edge of my couch yelling at the TV. My brother said mike richards is in his top 5 flyers since the 80s. At first, I disagreed with him, but when I thought about it, I had a hard time arguing that. Those were good times.

I liked those teams. I liked the team that was the worst in the NHL and had the worst franchise record. I dont like this current team. Even if they accomplish something, they are very boring. Last night, in a tight hockey game, I found myself dosing off until JJs voice would raise. That hasnt happened until the past 2 years. Their 4 game win streak didnt even move the meter.

So even if some of these players can do something for this team, I just cant get excited for them. I like Giroux, Voracek, white, Gudas, Ghost, MDZ, MDV, and Neuvy. Not that some others cant help the team, but if they got rid of any of those players, i wouldnt be upset in the least.

[mojo1917]

You know what would be nice to see along with all these fabulous points?

 

Playoff rounds.

 

As in "averaging more than one a year" over that time period - or more than one in the last three years for that matter...

 

Obviously that's not all on Giroux (#homercoaster ), but it does show that having a big "points" guy doesn't necessarily make a successful hockey team.

 

You know what's also nice?

 

Goals.

 

When do they raise the "first to 400 points this decade" banner?

 

 

the  guy accounts for nearly 50% of the team's offensive output.  by my count the flyers have scored 59 goals this season, #28 has 11 and assisted on 16 others. comes to .457 clearly i rounded up . but that's how i learned in the 80s.

get up off him.

he's not the problem.

 

that post was inflammatory,  I understand we are a community that discusses things. that post reads like it was written by a malcontent looking for an argument. 

implying on this page that i am a puck bunny is complete bullshit and way beneath your standard. 

[RJ8812]

Points are the most important factor in determining how good a player is to the "experts" without question. Ovechkin and Stamkos are awful without the puck, but that doesn't seem to matter because they put up points. It's even worse for defenseman. Just look at Karlsson and how much recognition he gets because he can put up a lot of points, yet the guy is mediocre on a good day, without the puck and in his own zone

[Bakanekimiwa]

I'm late to this party and there are many good points to address here. But, for me, the biggest thing lacking about G's game is.... a complementary player. We thought we had that in Voracek(and maybe we still do) and signed him long term on that premise. G really is a keystone player. You can build a team around him. He's elite talent and gives 100% every game.

 

He's a Lennon... he just doesn't have his McCartney yet. I mean... Look at Benn/Seguin and pretty much any other duo the league has ever produced... Lindros/LeClair. Elite talent needs an elite complement. And, I'm sorry.. Raffl is simply not cutting it for me as the tertiary member of that top line. You need a Harrison(if you'll allow me to continue my analogy). Raffle is no George Harrison. 

 

It remains to be seen if Mason is really our Ringo... but I think goalies are similarly weird as drummers... 

[elmatus]

I dont know exactly what Im looking for. I guess Im looking for "nastiness" more than just being tough. All those flyers you named besides Gudas and maybe white may be tough but they're not nasty. They all seem like "polite" players.

I would love to have that Wilson kid from washington. You don't want to mess with him but he could also score the occasional goal. I was a Rinaldo fan but I wasn't too upset to get a 3rd rounder for him because he just didn't add enough offensively.

 

The reality is that type of "nastiness" is quickly becoming a thing of the past. Sure, there are still some players who manage to bring nastiness and skill in a package (Lucic comes to mind), but they are very much on the wane. Players like Gostisbehere and Konecny are not just the future of the Flyers, they're archetypes for the future of the NHL.

 

Though I too enjoy watching the physical side of play, the truth is skill and speed has been largely replacing the big hit and fight for some time now, and it's only going to continue. The way concussions get drawn into the media and the courts today -- and it's only going to get worse -- much of that sandpaper is going to keep falling by the wayside.

 

Don't get me wrong. I do agree with you. I grew up watching Lindros push people around like a man among boys, and I loved it. Still, the main thing I want is to follow a team that does well and makes a run for the cup on a semi-regular basis. I also do enjoy watching a skilled team skate circles around people (Giroux/Voracek/Gost in OT is a great example). I also enjoy watching sick stickhandling and playmaking. I'm coming to enjoy those more in fact, because I realize how the Gudas' of the world are often more a liability in today's NHL than anything else.

[RJ8812]

Voracek needs to be back with G. Hakstol was smart putting him on the 4th line for a bit, but that experiment should end ASAP

[JagerMeister]

Yeah, 3-on-3 has really worked wonders for some guys' point totals, hasn't it? #statistics Mark my words - the league will start breaking out OT points much the way they acquiesced to Roger Neilson's complaining about the W/L/OTL and "regulation wins"

 

Crazily, the Flyers are 4-5 in games in which Giroux scores this year. On the flip side, he has points in every OTW this season.

 

 

 

 

I guess I just don't "enjoy" personal achievements in a team game to the extent others do.

 

And I clearly stated in my original post that it's not "all on Giroux" and referenced the real culprit - Paul Holmgren.

 

Maybe we can just put "Celebrating Claude Giroux" and have that be the topic, as opposed to - as the original post in the thread does - backhandledly referencing another poster on the site (phlfly) and his misguided obsession with Giroux.

 

Because at that point, the topic becomes one of "see? I'm right!" as opposed to "rah rah Giroux."

 

 

 

And when you look at points per game that certainly bears out that statement. Over this time period he's clearly a Top Ten player in the league - pointswise. There isn't an argument about that, because it's true.

 

I'm not arguing that he's not a great player. I'm arguing the results of the team that he's the captain of - and, again, it's not all on Giroux (#homercoaster).

 

Pointing out who his linemates are (Raffl) or other deficiencies of the roster (defense) acknowledges my point that it's not all on Giroux.

 

You want to take it up with briere48 or phlfly? Go ahead. Lord knows I do.

 

 

 

 

I disagree. I believe goals are the most important stat in the league. Assists - especially second assists - are too often doled out in this league like candy corn at a Halloween party.

 

Case in point, of three teams who had two players in the top ten in points last season (WAS, DAL, PHL) two of them missed the playoffs. The leading points guy on the Cup winner was 23rd overall.

 

Now, we can certainly say that Toews might have been higher if Kane hadn't missed 21 games of the season - but that line of reasoning is exactly why Giroux is the "first player to 400" in this decade. Other players who have higher points per game were injured. That's where, for me, the whole "first to 400" thing is "meaningless" - it relies on outside events (injury to other players) to be true. Just like the Comcast SportsNet stenography of "most points since a point in time before which the statement wouldn't be true" isn't satisfying for me.

 

In the end, I've always said I see hockey as the ultimate team game and, as such, individual achievements don't really mean that much to me in the absence of team achievement. I root for the crest on the front, not the name on the back.

 

I'd also have less of an issue with touting points totals if that was cleared up to be more than "the last two guys to touch the puck before the goal" because there are many times that the second "assist" had (IMO) little to do with the outcome of the play.

 

Others' mileage may vary on the subject. That's why it's a discussion forum and not a puck bunny "we   player X" forum.

I think goals on average are of higher value for transparent reasons. But when we are discussing elite playmakers such as Giroux, many times the assist actually created the opportunity for the other player to score the goal. Even the secondary assist can also be the most important part of the play. Perfect examples of the secondary assist creating the play would be someone like Crosby.

[WordsOfWisdom]

Giroux just became the first player of this decade to hit 400 points.

 

Narrowly edging out Tyler Bozak. 

[flyercanuck]

@WordsOfWisdom

 

We're not counting road hockey.

[radoran]

implying on this page that i am a puck bunny is complete bullshit and way beneath your standard. 

 

I didn't intend to insult you with the comment. I certainly apologize for any slight you inferred from it. My intention was to contrast this board with other boards that do ban/boot people for not being "rah rah."

 

That's not the way we do things here.

 

Again, apologies.

 

I would hope that further posts in the thread have further clarified my position.

 

I don't say "he's the problem." I don't say he is "the suk". I'm just not impressed with individual achievement in the absence of team achievement. And it appears that I'm not alone in this.

 

That said, Giroux is playing some great hockey at the moment and is driving the team to success. That's what I'm interested in seeing. That's what I'm interested in celebrating.

[csummers]

 Trade him now so we can get some good young players, develop them, watch them progress, and once they are good enough that all we need is a team around them we can trade them for some young guys we can develop.

[icehole]

The reality is that type of "nastiness" is quickly becoming a thing of the past. Sure, there are still some players who manage to bring nastiness and skill in a package (Lucic comes to mind), but they are very much on the wane. Players like Gostisbehere and Konecny are not just the future of the Flyers, they're archetypes for the future of the NHL.

Though I too enjoy watching the physical side of play, the truth is skill and speed has been largely replacing the big hit and fight for some time now, and it's only going to continue. The way concussions get drawn into the media and the courts today -- and it's only going to get worse -- much of that sandpaper is going to keep falling by the wayside.

Don't get me wrong. I do agree with you. I grew up watching Lindros push people around like a man among boys, and I loved it. Still, the main thing I want is to follow a team that does well and makes a run for the cup on a semi-regular basis. I also do enjoy watching a skilled team skate circles around people (Giroux/Voracek/Gost in OT is a great example). I also enjoy watching sick stickhandling and playmaking. I'm coming to enjoy those more in fact, because I realize how the Gudas' of the world are often more a liability in today's NHL than anything else.

Nastiness is trending down in the NHL but I still think it can be a helpful dimension of the team. If anything, it just makes things uncomfortable for the other team to play you. The flyers arent afraid to play with the highly skilled teams, but if they get knocked around they get off their game.

Im not saying we need 23 Lindros's on the team, but 3 nasty forwards and two nasty defensmen would be nice. Its all about balance. I think the flyers got way to goonish for a while and now they are over compensating and getting soft.