It's Official

[ruxpin]

Did he do with Schen too? I'm with you I can watch more than a few minutes. There are other things on TV and enjoy more. I watched a lot early on, but then I gave up.

I'm starting to suspect that the coach and some of the core players, for different reasons, won't be here two to three years.

I'm still hoping for the coach. We simply don't have good players, not that go together anyway.

I don't know how to change this, but I'm going to channel rad for a second: this organization gave the Asylum over to the inmates a decade and a half ago. They not only haven't gotten it back, they've reinforced it. Too many bungled coaching choices has contributed, too.

A wholesale rebuild may be the only thing that interrupts that, but even that may not be a guarantee.

That and some Canadian born Europeans that are small rookie veterans with size with speed and can hit.

[Podein25]

That and some Canadian born Europeans that are small rookie veterans with size with speed and can hit

 

 

Speaking of channelling....some briere48 inspired nonsense there eh? 

[ruxpin]

I might agree, as well. But why? What's the real evidence for it?

I, too, don't understand the use of Gagner - unless Gagner is just a capital B Bust. I don't understand benching BSchenn and playing Manning.

But that's not to say there isn't a "reason" for it.

It could very well be that his style is "losing the room" or whatever. But that also presumes that this "room" could actually be found - and I'm not at all sure about that.

Would you be more comfortable with "green" than "over his head?"

I am. Although I can't give you specific concrete evidence for this either, although "green" should work for any head coach brand new to the league.

I don't get the player personnel moves, but as you said and I alluded to: coach knows better than I. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt at this point.

Even if all he's doing is saying "I'm the coach," I'm okay with that. I do think he'll be okay provided they actually eventually get him an NHL team.

[radoran]

although "green" should work for any head coach brand new to the league.

 

I think there's definitely a learning curve and also - as with another coach in town - a need to learn how to work with multimillionaire athletes instead of college kids.

 

And that what might work in a college context may not work when you're playing the cream of the best hockey talent in the world.

 

Nothing else to do but be "patient" at this point.

 

Which really sucks.

[fanaticV3.0]

I might agree, as well. But why? What's the real evidence for it?

 

I, too, don't understand the use of Gagner - unless Gagner is just a capital B Bust. I don't understand benching BSchenn and playing Manning.

 

But that's not to say there isn't a "reason" for it.

 

It could very well be that his style is "losing the room" or whatever. But that also presumes that this "room" could actually be found - and I'm not at all sure about that.

 

 

I think some players going is inevitable at this point. There's no other way to make over the roster. I know Mr. Snider likes to say "you can't change the players" but there are all of six guys still here from the 11-12 season.

 

But I really do think we need more of a look at and from Hakstol before we know what we've got as a coach.

 

I think Hextall will be more likely to make significant roster moves than give up on the coach he hand-picked.

 

You mean because they will be too old for the team is ever good again? I've been thinking about that summer.

[radoran]

You mean because they will be too old for the team is ever good again? I've been thinking about that summer.

 

As I've said numerous times recently, I'm looking at this upcoming offseason as a real chance to set a new direction for the team - and that doesn't necessarily involve dealing the VeeGees.

 

It does involve cutting VLC and Umburglar - at the very least that frees up enough space to realistically add a legit 20/50 guy.

 

Would not surprise me to see LSchenn and Schultz dealt and likely Gagner not coming back.

 

That's well upwards of $10M in cap space.

 

There's also more than a slight chance that Streit is now done. That injury he has can be a death-knell for a career - especially for a 37 year old. I'd have hoped to get some assets at the deadline, but I just don't see that happening now.

 

The Hextall Era has a good chance of really starting in this offseason.

[aziz]

Well, those 2 are guys who figured out that if the other team gets a lot of shots against you and you don't get as many shots against them... then you're probably doing something wrong.

 

well, no.  corsi was the sabres goaltending coach, and he started tracking shot *attempts* because his goalies still needed to be set and aware whether the shot actually got through or not.  straight shots-on-goal totals didn't represent the extent of his charges' work, so he came up with something broader to get a better grasp on the workload sabres goalies were seeing.

 

his new stat was then taken out of that context and used to measure possession, which it totally does not do.  fenwick refined corsi to remove blocked shots, but is otherwise the same.

 

schenn's advanced stats are not good, but i have serious problems with how they are interpreted.  the other team *tries* to take more shots against the flyers while schenn is on the ice than the flyers *try* to take against the other team.  says nothing about who is actually getting those shots on goal more often, or the quality of those chances.  

 

you are right, through, there is a (mindless) obsession with these metrics around the league right now, and i have no doubt they are taken into account when other GMs are evaluating trade proposals.

[radoran]

Bob McKenzie on how Corsi got the name:

http://www.tsn.ca/talent/mckenzie-the-story-of-how-corsi-got-its-name-1.100011

 

Jim Corsi originally was using the combined shot numbers to determine his goalie's workload.

 

An Edmonton blogger ("Vic Ferrari") heard Darcy Regier talking about it and devised a way to use it to determine player effectiveness on the ice.

 

He named it after Jim Corsi - totally coincidentally - because he liked his moustache.

 

Ferrari had no idea back then, or even during our interview in April (until I told him), that Jim Corsi was actually the individual responsible for measuring a goalie’s workload by counting shots on goal + missed shots + blocked shots and, therefore, Ferrari’s random naming of Corsi turned out to be oh so fortuitous, that Regier wouldn’t have been talking about it if not for Corsi.

“Oh, I had no idea of that,” Ferrari said. “I just liked his moustache.”

Seriously. You can’t make up this stuff.

I recounted this story to former Sabre GM Regier, who is now working as an assistant GM in Phoenix, and I feared he was going to drive off the road, he was laughing so hard.

“I always kidded Jim that he was the self-proclaimed protector of all goalies,” Regier said. “He was always looking for a stat that would give his goalies their due. (Adding up shots on goal, blocked shots and missed shots) was something along those lines. Jim was always charting shots – where they came from, that stuff. In all the years I’ve known him, Jim never tried to take credit for (the Corsi metric as it more sophisticatedly applied now). He was just interested in tracking shots for his goalies…I can assure you, if I was on the radio talking about that sort of (statistical) stuff, it would have come from Jim…”

If the story generated uproarious laughter from Regier, the laugh track was long and loud from Jim Corsi himself when he was told the story how “Corsi” actually got its name.

“Are you serious?” Corsi said, laughing. “That is so funny for that to come out after all these years. You actually talked to (Ferrari)? That’s amazing. I’ve always told people I was flattered he used my name but it was always sort of a mystery to me how it came about.”

As Regier said, and Corsi has always been quick to add, at no time ever did the genial goalie coach try to take credit for the metric as devised by Ferrari.

[aziz]

at no time ever did the genial goalie coach try to take credit for the metric as devised by Ferrari.

 

that is interesting, didn't know that.  weird tiny world, huh?

 

still, the stat makes sense for how corsi originally used it, measuring goaltender workload.  it makes far less sense for measuring possession, though.  i mean, it specifically measures moments when a team gives up possession, and you are supposed to infer how long they help the puck from that.  the more times you give up the puck the more you must've had it to begin with, is the logic.  which is fine, until you have a peter forsberg kind of player around, who would *hold* the puck for an eternity, and only shoot when a grade A chance presented itself.  forsberg would have had one of the worst corsi numbers in the world if he were still playing when they adopted the metric.  heck, that whole avalanche team tended to shoot very little, pass a lot, and had a lot of players with enough skill to hold and move the puck themselves.  corsi sees all of those as negatives.  it only favorably measures a player or team that shoots the puck a lot.  right now, the better teams in the league do exactly that, and so corsi numbers currently match reality more than they don't, but that is the result of the current zeitgeist, not some innate accuracy of the measurement.

[radoran]

still, the stat makes sense for how corsi originally used it, measuring goaltender workload. it makes far less sense for measuring possession, though.

 

Totally agree. I'm not a fan of the stat for measuring individual players. Much more of a "team" metric for me and also as it was originally envisioned.

 

The name story is a great one.

[Podein25]

 it makes far less sense for measuring possession, though.

 

 

No kidding: measuring puck possession by how often you try to get rid of it! The irony!

[radoran]

measuring puck possession

 

Isn't there a way to measure possession by the amount of time a player/team actually holds the puck?

 

It's not like it's a complete mystery or unfathomable metric.

 

The more I dig into these "advanced stats" the less "advanced" they seem.

[Podein25]

Isn't there a way to measure possession by the amount of time a player/team actually holds the puck?

 

 

 

Why, there's even a clock on a big screen in the rink from which you can keep count

[OccamsRazor]

Isn't there a way to measure possession by the amount of time a player/team actually holds the puck?

Wouldn't that just be the the opposite time you don't have it????

Or do they track the time no one has it?

[WordsOfWisdom]

Isn't there a way to measure possession by the amount of time a player/team actually holds the puck?

 

It's not like it's a complete mystery or unfathomable metric.

 

The more I dig into these "advanced stats" the less "advanced" they seem.

 

Whatever happened to "attack zone" times? Those used to be so popular and now they've completely vanished.

 

Attack zone time = The amount of time one team spends in the attacking zone. 

[fanaticV3.0]

As I've said numerous times recently, I'm looking at this upcoming offseason as a real chance to set a new direction for the team - and that doesn't necessarily involve dealing the VeeGees.

 

It does involve cutting VLC and Umburglar - at the very least that frees up enough space to realistically add a legit 20/50 guy.

 

Would not surprise me to see LSchenn and Schultz dealt and likely Gagner not coming back.

 

That's well upwards of $10M in cap space.

 

There's also more than a slight chance that Streit is now done. That injury he has can be a death-knell for a career - especially for a 37 year old. I'd have hoped to get some assets at the deadline, but I just don't see that happening now.

 

The Hextall Era has a good chance of really starting in this offseason.

 

Is that a thing? I'm a little out of the loop  this year, is that a real nickname? If you made that up you deserve credit, because that is hilarious. I don't know what to do with the two of them. If all of these defensive prospects are about three years away, I think you have to consider trading them. There would be no point in letting them waste away on this kind of team.

 

Interesting. Is that based on all of 16 games this year?

 

I remember talking about this with Bre last year, but we should traded him..

[radoran]

If you made that up you deserve credit, because that is hilarious.

 

I forgot the ™ on VeeGees™

 

The way they've been playing Gagner, I can't see them committing to keep him. It's a long season, but I don't think that's too too unreasonable - even after 16 games (which is really only 14 since he's been a healthy scratch).

 

And Streit's injury is a really bad one for an athlete, especially a skater. "Pushing off" is one of the major problems with that kind of injury (according to what @pilldoc posted about it).

[fanaticV3.0]

I forgot the on VeeGees

 

The way they've been playing Gagner, I can't see them committing to keep him. It's a long season, but I don't think that's too too unreasonable - even after 16 games (which is really only 14 since he's been a healthy scratch).

 

And Streit's injury is a really bad one for an athlete, especially a skater. "Pushing off" is one of the major problems with that kind of injury (according to what @pilldoc posted about it).

 

This is great. After 16 games, we know our coach stinks, G is getting traded, Voracek's season last year was a fluke – and he's getting traded, and our free-agent acquisition will not be returning. I guess it's better to know early?

[radoran]

free-agent acquisition will not be returning.

 

He was a trade acquisition from Arizona in the Pronger/Grossmann deal.

 

Do you think they look like they're sold on keeping Gagner? Again - lots of season left.

 

Regardless, that's just part of the equation in the cap scenario I was outlining.

[fanaticV3.0]

He was a trade acquisition from Arizona in the Pronger/Grossmann deal.

 

Do you think they look like they're sold on keeping Gagner? Again - lots of season left.

 

Regardless, that's just part of the equation in the cap scenario I was outlining.

 

Hakstol doesn't look like he's been sold on Gagne since day one. As far as how they are using him, you would know better than me. I'm not watching more than a few minutes per game if that at times. I haven't watched regularly since about game six.

[Bakanekimiwa]

I might agree, as well. But why? What's the real evidence for it?

 

I, too, don't understand the use of Gagner - unless Gagner is just a capital B Bust. I don't understand benching BSchenn and playing Manning.

 

But that's not to say there isn't a "reason" for it.

 

It could very well be that his style is "losing the room" or whatever. But that also presumes that this "room" could actually be found - and I'm not at all sure about that.

 

 

I think some players going is inevitable at this point. There's no other way to make over the roster. I know Mr. Snider likes to say "you can't change the players" but there are all of six guys still here from the 11-12 season.

 

But I really do think we need more of a look at and from Hakstol before we know what we've got as a coach.

 

I think Hextall will be more likely to make significant roster moves than give up on the coach he hand-picked.

 

 

What I don't get is, not the benching of BSchenn, the benching and then promotion to top line of BSchenn. This is just a horrible inconsistency of decision making. This move, more than any other, makes me really question if Hakstol is really out of his league here. 

[Podein25]

This move, more than any other, makes me really question if Hakstol is really out of his league here. 

 

 

And if Schenn is telling the truth, the poor (i.e., none) communication between coach and player. That's a sure way to lose the room or big chunks of it: not being straight up with players about your decisions. 

[mojo1917]

i think there is going to be a learning curve for Hakstol...

here's an article about B Schenn 

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=72544&blogger_id=45

from the oracle Bill Meltzer

 

he's scoring goals but that's it...now i know we need goals, but if he's not doing the other stuff the way the coach wants...

 

I don't necessarily think Hakstol is out of his league, I do think he's going to have to adjust his interpersonal skills a little so he can deal effectively with the professional athlete. i think that process will take more than 17 games

[Bakanekimiwa]

i think there is going to be a learning curve for Hakstol...

here's an article about B Schenn 

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=72544&blogger_id=45

from the oracle Bill Meltzer

 

he's scoring goals but that's it...now i know we need goals, but if he's not doing the other stuff the way the coach wants...

 

I don't necessarily think Hakstol is out of his league, I do think he's going to have to adjust his interpersonal skills a little so he can deal effectively with the professional athlete. i think that process will take more than 17 games

 

 

Of course, I'm viewing Hakstol's moves with BSchenn in a vacuum as far as his benching and subsequent promotion to top line. I've been very critical of BSchenn this year because I think that his points betray how poorly he's actually played. I think he's had some puck-luck actually and has not been very good in general. His possession stats are the worst on the team. 

 

So why would he be benched in one game and then elevated to top line in the next!? I just don't follow the logic here at all. 

[brelic]

I don't know what to do with the two of them. If all of these defensive prospects are about three years away, I think you have to consider trading them. There would be no point in letting them waste away on this kind of team.

 

That seems to be a popular opinion around here.

 

I see it a little differently. Even if G and Jake are no longer in their primes, and no longer counted on as the offensive leaders of this team, they still have tremendous value as role models and veteran leaders in general. Guys like Aube-Kubel, Fazleev, Konecny, Lindblom, Cousins, Laughton, Leier... they look up to the veterans who have made a name for themselves through their hard work and need someone at the NHL level to help them navigate the daily rigours of professional hockey at the highest level. 

 

If you get rid of them for draft picks and prospects, we could easily become Edmonton. A team with a ton of talent in the pipeline, but devoid of the calming influence of veteran leaders.