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I didnt have my glasses on...

icehole

By icehole
in Philadelphia Flyers

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ruxpin Grand Master

ruxpin

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Brandon Sutter would be another example of a 3rd line center who is tasked with defense-first who, coincidentally, has very similar numbers to Couturier.

 

He was #11 in the 2007 draft.   Used very similarly by Carolina.  Brought up at a similar age, and had comparable stats 21 yrs. old vs. 21 yrs. old.

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ruxpin Grand Master

ruxpin

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Jordan Staal was used similarly in Pittsburgh.  At a young age, he was tasked with playing against other top lines.  He had consistently better offensive numbers than Couturier but he was also a #2 vs. #8 and was on a more offensively-oriented team.

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murraycraven Newbie

murraycraven

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surely you jest...all you have to do is google "nhl defensive forward" and you come across a plethora of information..... here I add the link for you.  Now granted it is a bleacher report but it accomplished the job....

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1798160-the-top-shutdown-forward-on-every-nhl-teams-roster-for-the-2013-14-season#articles/1798160-the-top-shutdown-forward-on-every-nhl-teams-roster-for-the-2013-14-season

 

Anaheim Ducks:  Daniel Winnik (LW) -  One reason for Anaheim's struggles in 2011-12 was that the lack of forward depth forced Corey Perry and Ryan Getzlaf to handle all the tough defensive assignments. Despite handling them brilliantly, it left little time for them to focus on generating scoring of their own. Fortunately the arrival of Daniel Winnik helped change things, as he achieved instant chemistry with Andrew Cogliano and Saku Koivu on potentially the league's best checking line

 

Boston Bruins: Patrice Bergeron ©

 

Buffalo Sabres: Steve Ott ©

 

Calgary Flames: Curtis Glencross (LW)

 

Carolina Hurricanes: Jordan Staal © - There are several types of defensive forwards, and when considering those who consistently play the team's very toughest minutes, against the top opponents, in the defensive zone and in penalty-killing situations, Jordan Staal has been the league's best.

Staal's talent is neutralizing the disadvantage those types of situations would normally cause for his teams. Add in the additional offense that the 2010 Selke finalist provides, and it's no wonder that his annual $6.0 million cap hit (for the next 10 seasons) is rarely called into question.

 

Chicago Blackhawks: Jonathan Toews ©

 

You can read the whole list yourself…….

 

Philadelphia Flyers: Sean Couturier © –

 

Quality of Competition: Second highest among Flyers forwards last year, fifth in his rookie year

 

Top Opponents: Rick Nash, Alexander Semin, John Tavares, Evgeni Malkin

 

Offensive Zone Starts: Lowest and second lowest among team's forwards in his first two seasons, respectively (kind of hard to score when you are not getting very many offensive zone starts)

 

Penalty-Killing Minutes Assigned: 42.4 percent

 

Drafted with the pick acquired in the trade with Columbus that sent Jeff Carter away in exchange for Jakub Voracek, Sean Couturier was selected eighth overall in 2011. Almost immediately Couturier was trusted in the toughest situations in the defensive zone, against top players or while killing penalties. (again kind of hard to have offensive chances to score when you are in the defensive zone while on the PK.)

 

The son of short-time Los Angeles King Sylvain Couturier, Couturier was highly decorated in the QMJHL for his solid play at both ends of the ice. While his offensive game is yet to explode, his defensive game has been on display since his first game.

 

Please feel free to examine the list, i'm not gonna type out every name.  I'm sure you can read the list yourself....every team is represented.

 

 

LOL... thanks pill.... came back from a meeting and you did all the work for me! :thumbsu:

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murraycraven Newbie

murraycraven

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Brandon Sutter would be another example of a 3rd line center who is tasked with defense-first who, coincidentally, has very similar numbers to Couturier.

 

He was #11 in the 2007 draft.   Used very similarly by Carolina.  Brought up at a similar age, and had comparable stats 21 yrs. old vs. 21 yrs. old.

 

Sutter is actually the first person that I thought of...   good one.

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icehole Contributor

icehole

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@flyercanuck

Thanks for finding me those names.  Since I haven't them being referred to as shut-down forwards, I'll have to take your word for it.  I researched their numbers and it looks like the argument can still be made for both sides.

Jordan Staal - I always thought he had true sniper skills but never really did anything with it.  Having said that, in his second season he had 49pts and soon after had a season with 50pts in 62 games.  Even with decent offensive numbers, he was traded relatively young in his career.  I don't know what the pens got for him but they're do ok without him.

Burmistrov - Looks like a bust.  He's been down to the NHL and over to the KHL.  Im not sure he is even with the Jets right now.

Ruutu - He had 44 pts his first season and was traded in his fourth season.  He had 54 and 57 points and was traded again.

Koivu - Had 54 points in his second season the 42,67,71,62,44,37, and 54 in 65 games.  He can produce some offense.

Weiss- Started out slow, was traded, and had 61,60,49,59, and 57

Ladd - was bad for his first few seasons then he was traded and started getting points 59,60,46, and 54.

So these players can produce but they were all traded, except for koivu I think.  Some started scoring later in their careers and some were traded despite scoring early in their careers.  Either way, I'm not frightened more to lose Couturier if I have to.

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idahophilly Newbie

idahophilly

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different posters. In his own inimitable way, fanatic even lashes out against icehole earlier in the thread..

 

Oh, well as this thread is titled "I didn't have my glasses on..." ,the two of them kinda blur together. Either way it's an endless punch and counter punch scenario for the thread.

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flyercanuck Grand Master

flyercanuck

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Staal was a very good centre on a team with 2 great ones. So he got the checking job because he was good at it. Kind of like Couturier.

 

Burmistrov is not a bust. I'd bet we see him back in the NHL. Something happened in the Peg but hes a very good two way player.

 

All those players who put up better numbers...most of them were when they were older than Couturier is now. Give the kid a chance.

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Podein25 Proficient

Podein25

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Burmistrov - Looks like a bust.  He's been down to the NHL and over to the KHL.  Im not sure he is even with the Jets right now.

 

 

Agree with FC, not at all certain that he is a bust. He's Jet property still. He left for the KHL in large part because of how he was being used by the idiot Claude Noel. Under Maurice he would prosper. They are playing well right now - really well -  but Burmy would make them a playoff team IMO.

 

I'm glad you brought him up though, because the parallels with Cooter are interesting. Both elite offensive talents in Junior, but both noted for their 200 foot game. Both used almost exclusively in a checking role by coaches (although in the case of Burmistrov, not originally). Both declared busts by people like you.

 

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icehole Contributor

icehole

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@Mad Dog

I think I was referring to who is available for the flyers to get if they would get rid of Couturier.  There's no way I can know that because I don't have the resources.  I do know however that players are found all of the time so it does happen.

As far as numbers go, I'm the last person to offer numbers.  I'm telling everyone I don't like what I see on the ice...they give me the numbers.

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ruxpin Grand Master

ruxpin

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Can anyone think of a player as slow as Couturier but with a strong offensive game? In other words, I know there are parallels to draft position, and team role, but what about foot speed?

 

Tim Kerr

 

(yes, I know that is stretching it beyond reason on both player-type and era.  But it's all I got until I think about it a bit more)

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OccamsRazor Grand Master

OccamsRazor

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thanks FC... you are just a bit quicker than me ;) 

 

let me add another Jonathan Toews #3 overall in 2006

 

@icehole

 

we have given you multiple examples.  I seriously don't know why your infatuated with Coots.  Many members on this forum have countered every argument you have againt Coots.  Why do you still want to push the issue?

Even old school Bob Gainey, Bobby Clarke, Poulin, Carrboneau, Ron Francis Fedorov, Jere Lehtinen many many Selke type guys.

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ruxpin Grand Master

ruxpin

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Even old school Bob Gainey, Bobby Clarke, Poulin, Carrboneau, Ron Francis Fedorov, Jere Lehtinen many many Selke type guys.

 

Did any of those mentioned, though, have offensive numbers that compare with Couturier?  Just curious, because I think that's icehole's point.

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ruxpin Grand Master

ruxpin

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I mean, Handzus comes to mind. He ended up having a decent career, topping out at 58 points, but really mostly in the 40 point range.

 

Yeah, but he was drafted 101st in the fourth round.  Not trying to speak for icehole, but I think he's making the case that that is the place you draft such a player--not as high as #8.

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OccamsRazor Grand Master

OccamsRazor

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Did any of those mentioned, though, have offensive numbers that compare with Couturier?  Just curious, because I think that's icehole's point.

You mean offensive numbers? I'm not sure I'm on my phone and don't have time to check but I'd venture to guess yes at the same age as Coots but it would be projected with him since he's only 21.

And a finished product and hasn't scored 30 yet...trade that bum!!! ;)

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