I didnt have my glasses on...

[ruxpin]

Keep in mind the Flyers organization chose to trade both Carter and Richards.  There wasn't anyone in the system to replace them with. -- So obtaining the next best center in the draft was a must.

 

Agreed.  But a case can be made (and has) for taking Hamilton or some other defenseman.  I get that argument despite being fine with Couturier.

[ruxpin]

Laughton seems to have the defensive skills as well, is already very good on faceoffs, but I wouldn't want him to become the 3rd line guy

 

I agree with this, because as this team is currently constructed, I think this third line (if used exactly the same way) will kill any center's offensive output.  Then the question becomes, would the defense (from that position, not team or defensemen) remain as good?  

 

Hard to say, but I'm skeptical.

[murraycraven]

If he is strictly blanketing other stars, it's easier for him to have a good defensive game

 

alright... I will bite.

 

it is obvious you never played ice hockey with some of these statements, and that is fine, but you need to understand something - being a defensive specialist (and a Selke level specialist at that) is something that takes incredible hockey IQ - nearly as much as being a top defenseman.   At age 21 this kid is one of the best defensive forwards in the game and he very well might win a Selke in the coming years.  As 21 this kid is thrown to the wolves and forced to play the toughest minutes on the Team and against the best players in the NHL.   To say his IQ is slipping is just nonsense...

 

He is not put in a position to be an offensive force - HE IS PLAYING THE SHUTDOWN ROLE.  His primary responsibility is to ensure they other Teams BEST line does not score.  That is his #1 priority - nothing else.   If he was put into more o-zone starts I would bet his point totals start moving upwards.   The kid did not forget how to score but his primary role on this Team is to shut down the opposing teams best threats - period. 

 

Does the kid make mistakes?  Absolutely... then again show me a hockey player that does not make mistakes.  He is literally forced on a line that has 2 wingers that are completely lost this season.   We wont know if his Jr and AHL numbers will ever translate to the NHL if he is constantly put in a position of starting shifts in the d zone. 

 

Another thing people like to point out is his skating.  His stride is not what I would call pretty my any means but he is not a bad skater.  He manages to effectively shut down opposing players on a nightly basis (based on his role) and if you are in a good defensive position to do so (which he is 90% of the time) you cant be a bad skater.

[ruxpin]

@ruxpin

I just read it again.  It compares Couturier to those stars, it blames a lot of the problems on his linemates, and it says he doesn't get PP time.  Did I miss something again.  You can't compare his defensive skills to players that really produce offensively because they are concentrating more on doing what (I think) they are supposed to do...scoring.  If he is strictly blanketing other stars, it's easier for him to have a good defensive game.  Once he starts taking a few chances to improve his offensive game, we'll see if he can still be affective defensively.  Until then, you can't compare them.

I said his linemates are bums.  I also wonder if Read's problems have something to do with Couturier...why is it one way but can't go the other way?

His PP time is a mystery to me.  If he can be better than the guys that get more PP time, why wouldn't they give him more PP time?  They have a top 5 PP so they must be doing something right on the PP. 

  

First highlight

 

I think so, yes.  I *think* maybe you gloss over or underestimate the point about zone starts combined with an immobile defense and 2/3 of a line.  People are saying "21" or whatever, and there's something to that, but I think the handicap they give him would be a significant one for a player of any age.   I also think--just to acknowledge your position--that particularly because of his age and because he has excelled at the defensive side that there is a significant danger of his giving up or at least ignoring (practicing, honing, etc) the offensive side of his game.  It's possible we're seeing that, and that would not necessarily be a good thing.

 

Second highlight

 

I think the comment about the comparative view/patience/whatever regarding Read is actually a valid one.  I threw that out earlier and it was kind of addressed somewhat but I don't know whether directly enough.   Clearly, they (the Flyers, Berube) keep those two together as a pair.  So they're on the ice together in most instances.  So if zone starts, Umberger, etc, are hampering Couturier's offensive game, it does seem reasonable to argue the same with Read.   Or, if one dismisses that for Couturier, then go ahead and dismiss it for Read.  But I do kind of agree with you that Couturier should not get a pass due to those circumstances if Read doesn't.

 

I think some see effort and determination, etc., on the part of Couturier and not with Read.  I don't personally see that.  I also believe they are different players.  What I mean by that, among other factors, is that Read is a smoother skater.  So his getting from point A to point B may look a bit more effortless than Couturier and give the impression of floating.  But they're both working.   

 

I do think there is a lot to the argument that with Umberger on that line most of the time that often Couturier/Read are playing a 2 vs. 3 game starting in the wrong end of the ice.

[brelic]

I agree with this, because as this team is currently constructed, I think this third line (if used exactly the same way) will kill any center's offensive output.  Then the question becomes, would the defense (from that position, not team or defensemen) remain as good?  

 

Hard to say, but I'm skeptical.

 

Good question - but I don't think it has to be one or the other. There are a lot of skilled players who can put up points and also play defense. Laughton's offensive upside would probably be limited as a 3rd line guy but it doesn't have to be neutered like Couturier's. It really comes down to linemates and chemistry.

 

EDIT: When I talk about skilled players who can put up points and play defense, I'm thinking of a guy like Leier. He seems like a real sparkplug in the exhibition games I watched. He is fast, his feet were always moving, he was in the dirty areas, and he's (apparently) a defensively responsible player. To me he's the perfect kind of 3rd line player. He's got 12 pts in 22 games in LHV - which is ok. 

 

Cousins, to me, is a guy that has the potential to be top 6, but he's going to have to work hard to get there. He might top out at 3rd line. I don't know what his defensive game is like, or if he can play wing. But that's another option - he could either be our 3rd line center, and Bellemare on the 4th, or he could be a 3rd line winger with Leier.

[icehole]

@murraycraven

I have played hockey...thanks coach.  I say his hockey IQ is slipping because he is making more "mental" mistakes than usual.

However, recently I've heard way more about this "shutdown forward" role than I ever have since I've been around hockey.  I don't follow much talk around the league...is this role talked about as much in other cities as it is in Philadelphia?  If it is, could you give me a few examples from different teams that have these players that are asked to only blanket the other stars?  Of those players, could you let me know how many of those players were take #8 or higher?

These are all things I am curious about and since everyone seems to know more than I do, feel free to fill me in.

[mojo1917]

Another thing people like to point out is his skating.  His stride is not what I would call pretty my any means but he is not a bad skater.  He manages to effectively shut down opposing players on a nightly basis (based on his role) and if you are in a good defensive position to do so (which he is 90% of the time) you cant be a bad skater.

 

The reason he's in the NHL with his poor skating is his hockey IQ.

His first step is terrible, his crossovers steps and any sort of quick change of direction are not a strong point either, once he gets going he's not "slow" though it takes him too long to get to his top speed.  His fast twitch muscles need more work, he is not light on his feet at all.

Some of his deficiencies can be improved by working hard.  He seems like a conscientious kid though so I do expect his skating to improve, and thought I have seen some improvement from him this year actually. He has not put on his "man weight" either, once he fills out his frame and gets used to how to use it I think he will be significantly harder to knock off the puck once he has it, that will go a long way toward helping him on offense.  Kid is not a finished product.

[mojo1917]

@icehole

quit typing things that highlight your ignorance and people will probably not feel the need to correct you.

 

when you're in a hole son , quit digging.

[murraycraven]

@murraycraven

I have played hockey...thanks coach.  I say his hockey IQ is slipping because he is making more "mental" mistakes than usual.

However, recently I've heard way more about this "shutdown forward" role than I ever have since I've been around hockey.  I don't follow much talk around the league...is this role talked about as much in other cities as it is in Philadelphia?  If it is, could you give me a few examples from different teams that have these players that are asked to only blanket the other stars?  Of those players, could you let me know how many of those players were take #8 or higher?

These are all things I am curious about and since everyone seems to know more than I do, feel free to fill me in.

 

 

then you obvioulsy must have been a gifted sniper b/c you really show some ignorance for the defensive side of the puck.   and no need to thank me as I am a Coach.

 

You keep asking about "blanketing stars" but would that not fall on the Coach and how he is handling his time? 

[icehole]

@mojo1917

Usually I'm stumped within the first couple of replies.  Obviously that hasn't happened here.  With the exception of a couple of posters that made valid points, I am fully confident in my assessment of #14.  I'll keep digging...jump in when you like.

I'll tell you what, when he has a breakout game, make a new thread about it.  I'll make a thread every time he hurts the team.  We'll see which threads are posted more regularly.

In a year or two, when he is the star of the league, you can message me personally and tell me how wrong I was and how right you were.

[murraycraven]

I'll make a thread every time he hurts the team.

 

definition of "trolling"

 

like I said before... it is creepy that you are this infatuated with a 21 year old player who is not even on the top 5 list of issues facing this team.

[icehole]

@murraycraven

I don't know.  If you are a coach, you should be able to tell me how Berube is handling it.  If Berube tells him to do that one job and that one job only, he should be fired.  I'm not dismissing the defensive responsibility of a forward.  I think every forward should be expected to be responsible defensively.  They are forwards for a reason though...they are expected to produce offensively.  Maybe he is a defenseman and not a forward.

Did you think about those shut-down forwards on the other teams yet?  I'm really curious if there's as much importance put on a shut-down forward as there is here. 

[murraycraven]

Did you think about those shut-down forwards on the other teams yet? I'm really curious if there's as much importance put on a shut-down forward as there is here.

 

I think you need to go back and start reading from your first post.   If not mistaken there are plenty of examples...   IMO, there is nothing that can be said to change your view (as evidenced by this post and previous posts)... hater is gonna hate so have at it.

 

Maybe he is nothing more than a shutdown center and maybe not but to arrive at the notion he is a finished product at 21 is a bit illogical.

[icehole]

@murraycraven

Good posters have slightly swayed my views.  I've even gone as far as saying that maybe the flyers should hold onto him as a third line center.  Giroux will be 1st line, Laughton will be 2nd line, so if Coots can put up some numbers like he did last season, I'd be happy with him on the third line.

You have not swayed me with anything you have said.  If you give me those shut-down forwards from other teams, maybe that would help change my mind.  You seem to be ignoring that for some reason though.

[murraycraven]

@murraycraven

Good posters have slightly swayed my views.  I've even gone as far as saying that maybe the flyers should hold onto him as a third line center.  Giroux will be 1st line, Laughton will be 2nd line, so if Coots can put up some numbers like he did last season, I'd be happy with him on the third line.

You have not swayed me with anything you have said.  If you give me those shut-down forwards from other teams, maybe that would help change my mind.  You seem to be ignoring that for some reason though.

 

what shutdown centers would you like?  please expand on your question.

 

you know he is on pace for 15 goals and is in the top 5 in goals on the Flyers right now right?

[flyercanuck]

@murraycraven

I have played hockey...thanks coach.  I say his hockey IQ is slipping because he is making more "mental" mistakes than usual.

However, recently I've heard way more about this "shutdown forward" role than I ever have since I've been around hockey.  I don't follow much talk around the league...is this role talked about as much in other cities as it is in Philadelphia?  If it is, could you give me a few examples from different teams that have these players that are asked to only blanket the other stars?  Of those players, could you let me know how many of those players were take #8 or higher?

These are all things I am curious about and since everyone seems to know more than I do, feel free to fill me in.

 

Jordan Staal 2nd overall

 

Alexander Burmistrov 8th overall

 

Tuomo Ruutu taken 9th overall

 

Mikko Koivu 5th overall

 

Steven Weiss 4th overall

 

Andrew Ladd 4th overall

[pilldoc]

@murraycraven

 

However, recently I've heard way more about this "shutdown forward" role than I ever have since I've been around hockey.  I don't follow much talk around the league...is this role talked about as much in other cities as it is in Philadelphia?  If it is, could you give me a few examples from different teams that have these players that are asked to only blanket the other stars? 

 

surely you jest...all you have to do is google "nhl defensive forward" and you come across a plethora of information..... here I add the link for you.  Now granted it is a bleacher report but it accomplished the job....

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1798160-the-top-shutdown-forward-on-every-nhl-teams-roster-for-the-2013-14-season#articles/1798160-the-top-shutdown-forward-on-every-nhl-teams-roster-for-the-2013-14-season

 

Anaheim Ducks:  Daniel Winnik (LW) -  One reason for Anaheim's struggles in 2011-12 was that the lack of forward depth forced Corey Perry and Ryan Getzlaf to handle all the tough defensive assignments. Despite handling them brilliantly, it left little time for them to focus on generating scoring of their own. Fortunately the arrival of Daniel Winnik helped change things, as he achieved instant chemistry with Andrew Cogliano and Saku Koivu on potentially the league's best checking line

 

Boston Bruins: Patrice Bergeron ©

 

Buffalo Sabres: Steve Ott ©

 

Calgary Flames: Curtis Glencross (LW)

 

Carolina Hurricanes: Jordan Staal © - There are several types of defensive forwards, and when considering those who consistently play the team's very toughest minutes, against the top opponents, in the defensive zone and in penalty-killing situations, Jordan Staal has been the league's best.

Staal's talent is neutralizing the disadvantage those types of situations would normally cause for his teams. Add in the additional offense that the 2010 Selke finalist provides, and it's no wonder that his annual $6.0 million cap hit (for the next 10 seasons) is rarely called into question.

 

Chicago Blackhawks: Jonathan Toews ©

 

You can read the whole list yourself…….

 

Philadelphia Flyers: Sean Couturier © –

 

Quality of Competition: Second highest among Flyers forwards last year, fifth in his rookie year

 

Top Opponents: Rick Nash, Alexander Semin, John Tavares, Evgeni Malkin

 

Offensive Zone Starts: Lowest and second lowest among team's forwards in his first two seasons, respectively (kind of hard to score when you are not getting very many offensive zone starts)

 

Penalty-Killing Minutes Assigned: 42.4 percent

 

Drafted with the pick acquired in the trade with Columbus that sent Jeff Carter away in exchange for Jakub Voracek, Sean Couturier was selected eighth overall in 2011. Almost immediately Couturier was trusted in the toughest situations in the defensive zone, against top players or while killing penalties. (again kind of hard to have offensive chances to score when you are in the defensive zone while on the PK.)

 

The son of short-time Los Angeles King Sylvain Couturier, Couturier was highly decorated in the QMJHL for his solid play at both ends of the ice. While his offensive game is yet to explode, his defensive game has been on display since his first game.

 

Please feel free to examine the list, i'm not gonna type out every name.  I'm sure you can read the list yourself....every team is represented.

[pilldoc]

Jordan Staal 2nd overall

 

Alexander Burmistrov 8th overall

 

Tuomo Ruutu taken 9th overall

 

Mikko Koivu 5th overall

 

Steven Weiss 4th overall

 

Andrew Ladd 4th overall

 

thanks FC... you are just a bit quicker than me  

 

let me add another Jonathan Toews #3 overall in 2006

 

@icehole

 

we have given you multiple examples.  I seriously don't know why your infatuated with Coots.  Many members on this forum have countered every argument you have againt Coots.  Why do you still want to push the issue? 

[idahophilly]

we have given you multiple examples.  I seriously don't know why your infatuated with Coots.  Many members on this forum have countered every argument you have againt Coots.  Why do you still want to push the issue? 

 

He pushes it like phlfly does with G, in this case it is C is Suk. Fanatic V3.1 Patch said in his Laughton thread today that he would be happy with Giroux, Laughton, Coots and Bellemare down the middle. Sooo, in a different thread he likes Coots. I'm not going to even try and figure it out. All I want to see is a battle thread between phlfly and Fanatic 3.1 Patch on whether "G is suciest" or "C is sukiest"...

[pilldoc]

@idahophilly

 

now that would be worth the price of admission.....gentleman to your keyboards!

[mojo1917]

In a year or two, when he is the star of the league, you can message me personally and tell me how wrong I was and how right you were

 

That's not how I roll. so keep your imaginary coffee mug close by and don't keep checking your inbox.

 

The young man isn't done growing in a number of ways.  I've never said he's perfect, i've pointed out areas where he can improve. he is the baby you don't throw out with the bath water though. When he's 26 he'll be a much different player than what we see today.  I would prefer to reap the benefits of 26 year old Sean Couturier than deal him for a quick fix... and I typed this more than once toward you if the right deal comes along and an impact player can be had and dead wood can be planed, you make the deal. 

[Mad Dog]

 

I really haven't looked too deeply at who is out there. 

 

OK, but don't you think taht's a very important piece of information?  Don't you think if, say, Ryan Getzlaf is stuck playing with two non-scoring wingers, his production won't suffer?  You really have to be looking at a players' performance in its totality; you can't just look at the bare numbers and conclude Couturier is a bad scorer.  I mean he may be, but you have to be evaluating multiple lines of evidence.

[radoran]

Fanatic V3.1 Patch said in his Laughton thread today that he would be happy with Giroux, Laughton, Coots and Bellemare down the middle. Sooo, in a different thread he likes Coots.

 

fanatic 3.0 =/ icehole

 

different posters. In his own inimitable way, fanatic even lashes out against icehole earlier in the thread...

[ruxpin]

Jordan Staal 2nd overall

 

Alexander Burmistrov 8th overall

 

Tuomo Ruutu taken 9th overall

 

Mikko Koivu 5th overall

 

Steven Weiss 4th overall

 

Andrew Ladd 4th overall

 

Martin Hanzal is now 27 and admittedly was drafted at #17, but here's another guy who pretty much focuses on defense over offense.  His numbers are at least similar to Couturier.

 

I know, #17 vs. #8, but the point is the role they are each being asked to play.

[flyercanuck]

@ruxpin

 

It's still a high draft pick rux and certainly fits the bill here.