OccamsRazor Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Not sure what that has to do with the price of eggs, but sure. I'll slow it down for you. Eggs have nothing to do with this! They (Berube and Hexy) want to get away from dumping the pump into the offensive zone. They want to carry it in. Hartnell like to dump it in. He only had better numbers carrying it into the zone than Zac and Hall. He can't skate it in so him go by by. They'll insert RJ into the lineup to find out if he fits/can contribute some how. If not he could be traded later this season. We'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 See my other post on possession number for RJ... All the while his teammates fared better when not paired with RJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 It's irrelevant he was hurt and still dealing with it into the playoffs and maybe he and his coach didn't get along not sure about that...but he isn't there anymore he turned the page everyone else should to.And VLC doesn't need to be absolved he doesn't play defense and is still slow regardless if he was injured which he was during the season so yeah maybe Vinny scores 25-30 goals if he was healthy. We'll never know. This horse is dead. Time for a new off season discussion.I kind of like it honestly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 (edited) It was easier than clicking or pasting everyones names.................................you know who you are i was referring to!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! RJ must have taken some of use guys parking spots or girls or both or something the hate for him before he even plays here again!!!!!!!!No... He simply is not as good as Hartnell as a player and your unbridled disdain for Hartnell and love for RJ cloud you hockey judgement... You keep shouting how better off we are without Hartnell and praise Umberger for being a healthy scratch on a not so good. Team during a critical time of the year. All the more his ice time was drastically reduced.. I get the years and contract I really do... But Umberger is not the better player... Edited August 14, 2014 by murraycraven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 Doesn't matter how you label it he is gone. He doesn't fit the philosophy they are trying to mold the team into. So buh bye!!!!!! Who knows Rj could be gone too at the deadline this year too who knows.If he was not traded for Hartnell he was going to be bought out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Corsi % is kind of a silly stat to rest an argument on. It's got some fundamental flaws that don't acknowledge the tactics of some of today's more successful teams. The kings and even rangers for example are perfectly content to let you shoot from bad angles a day long and pad the stats of their fantastic goalies with easy save after easy save, then they'll turn it around on you right quick and score on a rush or quick set up and two or three shots. Sporting News had an article on players they expect to slide and two of the six players are listed. The full list of players can be found via the link. http://www.sportingnews.com/nhl/story/2014-08-06/relative-corsi-rel-definition-andrew-macdonald-flyers-bruinsR.J. UMBERGERIf you told me that Columbus could get out of Umberger's $13.5 million owed at any point in the last 18 months, I would've had a stroke from laughing. It's a good thing the Philadelphia Flyers are still in existence, because I'm not sure if there's another organization that would have taken on Umberger's deal. The fact that the Flyers actually gave up a talented Scott Hartnell for a sunk asset makes this doubly insane. Eric Tulsky noted at the time of the trade that Umberger is coming off of his second-best shooting-percentage year since 2005-2006. Any bets on which stays, and which regresses?ANDREW MACDONALDI once said that human hockey anchor Jack Johnson would go down as one of the biggest data points in Hockey's Data War. I honestly am starting to wonder if MacDonald, with time, will leapfrog Johnson as the guy. His contract is an atrocity. The question that most people should be asking is whether or not MacDonald, he of the $30 million-owed variety, is even a second-pairing defender. Again, a lot like Smid — if the gruesome possession numbers don't sell you on how bad this deal is, what about the fact that his EV/60 scoring rates are comparable to Cory Sarich, Roman Polak and Scott Hannan? What about the fact that he individual shot/60 rate is 138th of 142 regular defenders over the same timeframe, trailing a guy like Rob Scuderi? What about the fact that he is one of 14 defenders that actually yield more than one shot-attempt against per minute? Think about the average contract in this group of 15 (or even this group of six), then remember that MacDonald is owed $30 million. The disparity between him and everyone else is alarming, and these are bad players that he's compared against Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 I can't believe you just quoted this. I just read it the other day! Ha ha ha. WeirdLies, damn lies and statistics. - Twain. Or Disraeli. Probably Twain.Quotes, damn quotes and statistics - radoran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 No... He simply is not as good as Hartnell as a player and your unbridled disdain for Hartnell and love for RJ cloud you hockey judgement...You keep shouting how better off we are without Hartnell and praise Umberger for being a healthy scratch on a not so good. Team during a critical time of the year. All the more his ice time was drastically reduced.. I get the years and contract I really do... But Umberger is not the better player... Your disdain for RJ is what you meant i'm not judging someone who hasn't even got back into the fold yet. I like Hartnell but i can see his limitations. I appreciate what he did here but guys it's time to move on.....really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 But Umberger is not the better player... Show me where i said that...........please.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 If he was not traded for Hartnell he was going to be bought out... And you have no proof of this....desperation i see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 (edited) And you have no proof of this....desperation i see.Now you are speaking like Yoda... There is no desperation whatsoever... Calling anything you want but just google it and you will read the words directly from the GM mouth that they would have bought him out. I like RJ as a player but think it is worthy debate bc Hartnell is a better player. Just bc someone does not agree with you doesn't make it wrong, dismissive or nonsense... Edited August 14, 2014 by murraycraven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Just bc someone does not agree with you doesn't make it wrong, dismissive or nonsense... Fine we'll just see Hartnell played on the first line and top PP and scored just 20 goals. RJ played the 2nd and 3rd, mostly the 3rd and scored 18 goals yet played on the PP and PK. I'll take the more versatile and disciplined guy when it's that close. Flyers can always use less penalty kill time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 He plays both center and wing, and sure ... he scored just two goals fewer than Hartnell last year. But he also had the highest shooting percentage of his career, and that's going to go down basically next year no matter what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 (edited) He plays both center and wing, and sure ... he scored just two goals fewer than Hartnell last year. But he also had the highest shooting percentage of his career, and that's going to go down basically next year no matter what.I need to get hold of this crystal ball you have so I can play the lottery with.....you'll loan it to me??? While I'm at it shake it and just see if there is a Cup in the Flyers future within the 5-7 years....thanks! Edited August 14, 2014 by OccamsRazor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 I need to get hold of this crystal ball you have so I can play the lottery with.....you'll loan it to me??? While I'm at it shake it and just see if there is a Cup in the Flyers future within the 5-7 years....thanks! absolutely... although I am not sure you need it since you seem to know the future better than anyone else. I just shook the 8 ball but it wont respond: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 In two years Hartnell won't be a more valuable player than an empty roster spot and an extra 5 million bucks. Hexy sacrificed the better player now for the better situation later. As far as Columbus "benching" Umberger, a) he was hurt and b) this is the team that "wanted Hartnell" for a 5 year deal at 5 million per. Are we really going assume they have too notch player assessment skills going on?Scotty is obviously more valuable than RJ now. But Thinking 4th dimensionally, Scotty is not more valuable than RJ now and freedom later. Now with all that said, there's a good chance that RJ will not be a total bust. Now you are speaking like Yoda... There is no desperation whatsoever... Calling anything you want but just google it and you will read the words directly from the GM mouth that they would have bought him out. I like RJ as a player but think it is worthy debate bc Hartnell is a better player. Just bc someone does not agree with you doesn't make it wrong, dismissive or nonsense... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 In two years Hartnell won't be a more valuable player than an empty roster spot and an extra 5 million bucks.Hexy sacrificed the better player now for the better situation later.As far as Columbus "benching" Umberger, a) he was hurt and b) this is the team that "wanted Hartnell" for a 5 year deal at 5 million per.Are we really going assume they have too notch player assessment skills going on?Scotty is obviously more valuable than RJ now. But Thinking 4th dimensionally, Scotty is not more valuable than RJ now and freedom later.Now with all that said, there's a good chance that RJ will not be a total bust. I never argued any of that if you go back to my posts. It was a debate about who brings more to the Team this year. I am fully onboard with the whole thing knowing there is a light at the end of the tunnel in terms of getting out of the contract two years earlier. My argument is who is the better player for the Flyers this coming season. As for RJ being hurt - I hope that is the case and he lights it up this year but not expecting more than a 3rd line contribution... I am also trying to get Occams to use his LARGE FONT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegionOfDoom Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 (edited) Hextall chose to get RJ, he pulled the trigger. He went yay not nay when given an option. I want Hartsy on this team and wouldn't of traded him. Then again I wouldn't of knee jerked out a contract like that for him either. I'm okay with the trade, I'm in question as to who will give our team the Push Back, when our team starts to get punked. Rinaldo is a good hitter, I liked Hart's don't mess with us attitude. If only I could suit up, I'd take care of business, score a few goals and make a sandwich. Edited August 15, 2014 by LegionOfDoom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 (edited) @ all I get it....deep down I don't think Hexy wanted to get rid of Hartnell, HOWEVER, there was a get out of jail free card there (well at least a way to shorten a bad contract). One must consider, after weighing all the pros / cons of keeping Hartnell here, what is the best for this team down the road. Do we lose something in Hartnell right now, in regards to the push back and getting under the skin of the opposing team. Absolutely. Is Hartsy better than RJ, in some instances yes and other no. As I have stated so many times, RJ is not/will not be the savior of this team and no one should expect that. Hartnell could not carry the puck into the zone, can RJ be effective in this manner?...I don't know and we shall see.Who is the better skater? ... hands down RJWho will score the garbage goals? Hartnell was better at this than RJ (IMO)Who is more of prick and will get under the skin of the opposing team? ....Hartnell hands down.Who is more versatile in playing different positions?? RJ...now how effective that will be??? who knows...we shall see.Will RJ take stupid penalties like Hartnell?? if previous seasons can be used as an indicator....probably not. Having the Flyers not having to kill a PP in a crucial moment will go along way in benefiting this team.Right now....who's stupid contract would you rather have...RJ at 3 yrs or Hartnell at 5? Hands down I take RJ contract. (we got out of bad contract early by 2 yrs) If we want to get to the bottom line of this deal...here it is.....In the short run (meaning this season) is it possible by moving Hartnell, this has made this team weaker. Maybe and probably.In the long run , by moving Hartnelll now, will it make this team stronger in a few years. (just think of Hartnell in 5 years) - I am think this is what Hexy is thinking...so the answer is yes. It is/was a calculated move by Hexy to move Hartnell now, knowing full well it might make this team temporary weaker this season. It is risk IMO he had to take, if it was a way to get rid of bad contract by 2 yrs. There are plus's and minus's for both sides/viewpoints of this deal. I'm ok with this deal. As has been stated several times, the Flyers simply are not in the elite group right now. They are not structured for a deep run in the playoffs..yet. Yes, I know teams like the Rangers last year buck the norm, but deep down, most of us would admit that a Stanley Cup run is still at least 2 years away for this team. Looking at the Cup winner LA Kings...who was their push back guy? Looking at there roster, I really don't see anyone that strikes fear into me. If we really need a push back guy, then Simmer and Zac could potenially be those guys. Zac, if he control his emotions, can be that guy who skates on the edge. Simmer actually had more PIM than Hartnell last year. (ok by 3 lousy minutes) but you get my point. Don't forget about Ryan White being added to this mix. From clips I have seen on you-tube, I like his mojo. If this is the case then Simmer dosen't have to play this role. However, I like the way Simmer is not afraid to get in your face if there has been wrong doing to a teammate. We should all look at the upcoming season as a transitional year. Expect nothing more and nothing less. Play 60 min of solid hockey and let the chips fall how they fall is all I'm asking. Give Hexy a season or two to undo the damage that Homer caused. (stepping of the soap box now and just waiting for more responses) Edited August 15, 2014 by pilldoc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Agreed doc. Good summary.That said, if Hartnell is carrying the puck into the zone on Giroux and voraceks line, that's a problem... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 I'm in question as to who will give our team the Push Back, when our team starts to get punked A legit question but if Brayden Schenn is on G line it will be him, not saying he can scrap as well as Hartnell but he will get involved and stick up for them. Then you have Simmer, Zac and pretty sure why they signed the new guy Ryan White. And Darroll Powe if he ever gets a contract. Forwards with some skating ability and can fight.....i'm not including Rosehill because honestly i want them to get away from goon's dressing it want skaters that can fight. But that is enough in todays hockey....it's more than the Kings, Hawks and those types the days of goon hockey are dying. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 As far as Columbus "benching" Umberger, a) he was hurt and b) this is the team that "wanted Hartnell" for a 5 year deal at 5 million per.Are we really going assume they have too notch player assessment skills going on? Some excellent points right there, can't argue with any of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Looking at the Cup winner LA Kings...who was their push back guy? Looking at there roster, I really don't see anyone that strikes fear into me. There is not one specific beast, but collectively, they have a decent "push back". There is Mike Richards, Dustin Brown, Jordan Nolan, Kyle Clifford right off the top of my head....those guys back down from no one and they are spread throughout the roster so each line has a physical element. It's a big part of their game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Someone made the point that Umby playing line 3 opens up Read for potentially joining the first line. This is a bit interesting to me. His speed and defensive skills could rally open up some room for G and Jake to take advantage of.It's all theoretical of course. Some excellent points right there, can't argue with any of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doom88 Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Someone made the point that Umby playing line 3 opens up Read for potentially joining the first line. This is a bit interesting to me. His speed and defensive skills could rally open up some room for G and Jake to take advantage of.It's all theoretical of course. I think Read had a chance, but just didn't elevate his game. He might be a finished product. Good, but not great. Nothing wrong with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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