Sporting News: 1/3 of the Players are Flyers

[OccamsRazor]

The Flyers have added the Islanders' top pairing and a guy who couldn't crack the Blue Jackets' lineup down the stretch.

 

RJ was hurt and dealing with injuries the last half of last season.

 

There was a reason he wasn't 100% dealing with injuries.

 

If Crosby can get a pass for sucking in the playoffs 1 goal in 13 games cause he was injured why can't RJ get the benefit of the doubt.

 

I guess RJ is the new whipping boy here to bad he can't even get a chance to play first before the hate comes. Man Flyers fan are just something else.

[radoran]

RJ was hurt and dealing with injuries the last half of last season.

There was a reason he wasn't 100% dealing with injuries.

If Crosby can get a pass for sucking in the playoffs 1 goal in 13 games cause he was injured why can't RJ get the benefit of the doubt.

I guess RJ is the new whipping boy here to bad he can't even get a chance to play first before the hate comes. Man Flyers fan are just something else.

Did you even read the post - the part where I SPECIFICALLY say I like his contract better thN Hartnell's AND expect him to be better than Yost says in his article?

Now I'm putting on my orange and black Ray Bans and Flyers hat and wandering Manhattan on my way to Governor's Island and Brooklyn.

Sheesh, some people just read what they want.

But IF the Leafs had picked him up, I guarandamntee you'd make the same damn point.

EVERYBODY knows MacDonald is the whipping boy! Gt with the program! :-)

[OccamsRazor]

But IF the Leafs had picked him up, I guarandamntee you'd make the same damn point.

 

No i wouldn't have cared.

 

Geez what is with you fans....i know it's slow and everyone here is stirring for an argument.

 

And this post wasn't just towards you solely everyone who forgets how no effective Hartnell was i just click your post.

 

Now I'm putting on my orange and black Ray Bans and Flyers hat and wandering Manhattan on my way to Governor's Island and Brooklyn.

 

Now you're asking for it...please don't bring anymore Islander players back with you we have enough. The only thing about Amac i don't like is his contract.

 

If would have been for 4.25 for 4 years i'd been ok with it....but it wasn't...thanks Homer.

[murraycraven]

Yes RJ can help on the PK too Hartnell didn't. Hartnell scored 9 powerplay goals last year. RJ scored 8 looks pretty even to me. RJ is more versatile.

Hartnell sucked the last half of the season people forget or just for some reason over look and he sucked in the playoffs all playing with the two best forwards on the team.

Hartnell got all his numbers playing with the likes of Giroux, Jake and Jagr RJ never got to play with talent like that.

It's a contract dump and it's for the good of the team. I haven't seen anyone claim RJ was the savior. And i like FC said hated that contract for Hartnell from the start.

Hartnell did not play well but at least he found is way in the lineup... Where RJ was a healthy scratch... No one is saying that we are not giving him a chance but Hartnell is widely considered the better player by most people.... Every RJ sympathizer claims he is still a very good player. I ask the question again: If the guy is so clutch why was he in the rafters? There has been talk that he was not injured and that he was a true healthy scratch at the most critical juncture of the season. I watched him play and really see nothing other than a solid player that is on the decline.

He will get his shot but I really don't see how this team is better with him in the lineup. It is not an upgrade....

I hope he comes here and lights it up but I am expecting nothing and hoping for the best. People aren't making him the whipping boy... They are debating if he brings them a better skill set over Hartwell... That is it.

[OccamsRazor]

Where RJ was a healthy scratch...

 

RJ was injured dealing with a shoulder injury then a disc problem and over coming a broken finger. So no sense in playing a guy who is hurt.

[OccamsRazor]

I ask the question again: If the guy Hartnell is so much better what did he only have 1 goal in the last 29 games of the regular season 5 on 5? Why couldn't he even score a goal playing with Giroux and Jake....only 3 points playing on the top PP and top line???????????

 

Why?

[OccamsRazor]

They are debating if he brings them a better skill set over Hartwell... That is it.

 

Its not the question of a better skill set but a different skill set. Chief got tired like many of watching Hartnell take dumb penalty after dumb penalty and then at times flubbing the puck in the offensive zone and ruining chances G and Jake worked so hard to generate.

 

They also said they want to skate the puck into the offensive zone and not dump it in Hartnell dumped the puck in more than anyone else on the team. Downie was 2nd most on the team...it's why they are gone they don't think they fit the philosophy change is all.

Edited August 9, 2014 by OccamsRazor

[jammer2]

@OccamsRazor  There was a reason why Harts was on G's line, he absolutely did not fit anywhere else. Even with G, his lack off offensive instinct, falling down and just plain stupid play dragged that line down big time. I will admit, there were a lot of little nuances to Harts game that did not show up in any stats package...such as taking on the other teams biggest D-man in front of the net thus creating a screen, taking on other team agitators so G and V did not have to bother with that stuff, whether there was PIM's involved or not, he gave the Flyers push back....so that is something at least.

 

  Because Harts did not fit anywhere else, he dragged down that top line, and for that reason alone, I'm glad he's gone. Let's get someone with some creativity and speed on that line!!

[OccamsRazor]

There was a reason why Harts was on G's line, he absolutely did not fit anywhere else. Even with G, his lack off offensive instinct, falling down and just plain stupid play dragged that line down big time

 

Agree.

 

I will admit, there were a lot of little nuances to Harts game that did not show up in any stats package...such as taking on the other teams biggest D-man in front of the net thus creating a screen, taking on other team agitators so G and V did not have to bother with that stuff, whether there was PIM's involved or not, he gave the Flyers push back....so that is something at least

 

Agree. But they need someone who can help sustain the puck more in the offensive zone. A guy with better hands. He did have a skill set but it is time to try something new because it wasn't working, or lost it's effectiveness.

 

Because Harts did not fit anywhere else, he dragged down that top line, and for that reason alone, I'm glad he's gone. Let's get someone with some creativity and speed on that line!!

 

Agree.

 

And i'm not saying swap Hartnell for RJ (it's a contract dump) hell i expect RJ to play on the 2nd or 3rd.

 

But lets see it Brayden, Read, Raffl or even Bellemare can help generate more offense and chemistry with G and Jake on the 1st. Hartnell was limited on where else he could play....and is why he is gone. It's nothing personal just trying to jump start the 1st line. Who that will be will be worked out in camp and preseason. 

[jammer2]

  @OccamsRazor  I'm worried about taking offensive depth off the 3rd line, or Read would be my automatic pick to play with G and V. Raffl is an intriguing player, not sure if he could handle the every day limelight of the top line, but he has a nice skill set which could really fit in with those two. Playing on the top line could easily catapult Braydon's career where he needs it to go, but nothing should be handed to this kid, he has to deserve it. Don't know much about Bellemore except he can skate, should be an interesting camp.

[OccamsRazor]

. Don't know much about Bellemore except he can skate, should be an interesting camp.

 

Call me crazy but with this guys speed and shot i think he can be the wild card that G and Jake need he is an unknown....but he is 29 and should be mature enough to handle it and i feel if given time who knows.

 

I love the guys highlights.

 

 

kid has some deceptive speed.

[OccamsRazor]

@jammer2

 

This is a nice one he assisted on the game tying goal and then he won it in OT. Brayden also scores a nice one in here too.

 

[AJgoal]

It's just not true that Hartnell resulted in less puck possession or worse defense for the top line when he played there. Giroux's Corsi for/20 last year was higher with Hartnell on the ice with him than with any other skater on the team. That means that Giroux was possessing the puck more, not less, when he played with Hartnell 5 on 5. Only three forwards on the team produced a better Corsi against/20 for Giroux - Voracek, Hall, and Raffl - meaning that Giroux's line was generally better defensively as well with Hartnell than without. Now, The flipside of that is that Giroux scored fewer actual points 5 on 5 with Hartnell than with Raffl, 0.795 g/20 vs. 1.276 with Raffl. However, Giroux's line also gave up fewer goals when Hartnell played with him than Raffl. Also note that Raffl's stats are somewhat a byproduct of only 250 5 on 5 minutes, or 12.5 games, so the sample size is somewhat small. Voracek's numbers shake out similarly.

 

 

 

I ask the question again: If the guy Hartnell is so much better what did he only have 1 goal in the last 29 games of the regular season 5 on 5? Why couldn't he even score a goal playing with Giroux and Jake....only 3 points playing on the top PP and top line???????????

 

Because he didn't. He had 4 even strength goals in the last 29, and 21 points that also included a goal or assist from Giroux or Voracek.

Edited August 9, 2014 by AJgoal

[OccamsRazor]

It's just not true that Hartnell resulted in less puck possession or worse defense for the top line when he played there. Giroux's Corsi for/20 last year was higher with Hartnell on the ice with him than with any other skater on the team. That means that Giroux was possessing the puck more, not less, when he played with Hartnell 5 on 5. Only three forwards on the team produced a better Corsi against/20 for Giroux - Voracek, Hall, and Raffl - meaning that Giroux's line was generally better defensively as well with Hartnell than without. Now, The flipside of that is that Giroux scored fewer actual points 5 on 5 with Hartnell than with Raffl, 0.795 g/20 vs. 1.276 with Raffl. However, Giroux's line also gave up fewer goals when Hartnell played with him than Raffl. Also note that Raffl's stats are somewhat a byproduct of only 250 5 on 5 minutes, or 12.5 games, so the sample size is somewhat small. Voracek's numbers shake out similarly.

 

 

 

 

Because he didn't. He had 4 even strength goals in the last 29, and 21 points that also included a goal or assist from Giroux or Voracek.

 

 

Either Way corsi or not i know what i saw it don't tell the whole story. Berube thinks the team is better off without him he may be right he may be wrong. I think he is right.

 

Zero goals in 7 playoff games.........................slice it dice it any way you want dem the cold hard facts.

 

He's gone folks time to move on. He is a Blue Jacket....thanks for the good times Hartnell. I wish him well except when he plays the Flyers.

[OccamsRazor]

EVERYBODY knows MacDonald is the whipping boy! Gt with the program! :-)

 

Speaking of which check out the two Islander Dmen..............

 

 

...just exaclty.....WTF are they doing???? Keystone Cops????

[Polaris922]

@pilldoc

I'm not okay with Neal's departure. I might become okay with it IF Hornqvist scores 30+ goals. I said quite readily I don't think we got enough back for Neal. But like I said at the time I'm okay with his attitude gone, but not his shot.

[pilldoc]

@pilldoc

I'm not okay with Neal's departure. I might become okay with it IF Hornqvist scores 30+ goals. I said quite readily I don't think we got enough back for Neal. But like I said at the time I'm okay with his attitude gone, but not his shot.

 

I apologize then. I thought you were.  It might have been another pen fan then, but regardless, do you see my point?  I know on forums, Pens fans defended Neal to the hilt, but yet when given what happened, are ok with him being moved to Nashville.

 

I guess all I'm trying to point out is the fact, though many of us on here defended Hartnell and like him, but in order to for this team to move forward, Hartnell had to be moved.  Like I said in the previous post.  It was just a matter of perspective.

 

I thought you where one of the fans that was ok seeing Neal moved.  My bad.  Sorry mixing it up.

[murraycraven]

Either Way corsi or not i know what i saw it don't tell the whole story. Berube thinks the team is better off without him he may be right he may be wrong. I think he is right.

Zero goals in 7 playoff games.........................slice it dice it any way you want dem the cold hard facts.

He's gone folks time to move on. He is a Blue Jacket....thanks for the good times Hartnell. I wish him well except when he plays the Flyers.

7 games is a pretty small window to judge... The previous playoffs he had 8 points in 11 games. The cup year he had 17 points in 23. To take 7 games only as the basis for his play is like saying Crosby and malkin should be traded for last year's playoff.

Edited August 10, 2014 by murraycraven

[Polaris922]

@pilldoc

No need to apologize bud. I think a lot of us defended him when he started with the elbows and knees because he'd had no history of it. Now it got him traded from Malkin to Fisher...

[OccamsRazor]

7 games is a pretty small window to judge... The previous playoffs he had 8 points in 11 games. The cup year he had 17 points in 23. To take 7 games only as the basis for his play is like saying Crosby and malkin should be traded for last year's playoff.

It wasn't just those 7 games, I watched the whole season and it statrted really the 2nd half of the season and reaaly the last quarter of it headed into the playoffs and continued there. I'm going by the most recent. Its a what have you done for me lately. And Sid and Malkins play also has slipped and it may continue.....we'll see...

[AJgoal]

Either Way corsi or not i know what i saw it don't tell the whole story. Berube thinks the team is better off without him he may be right he may be wrong. I think he is right.

 

Zero goals in 7 playoff games.........................slice it dice it any way you want dem the cold hard facts.

 

He's gone folks time to move on. He is a Blue Jacket....thanks for the good times Hartnell. I wish him well except when he plays the Flyers.

 

The numbers are the numbers. The fact of the matter is that yes, Hartnell is now gone, but he was not this huge liability to the team that folks are trying to make him out to be. He was a positive possession player. The Flyers attempted more shots than their opponents while he was on the ice. This is a fact. His linemates attempted more shots with him on the ice than with someone else. Hartnell's corsi for percentage is 54.3 - they had 54.3% of the shot attempts made by both teams in all of Hartnell's shifts. The Flyers CF% dipped to 48.1 when Hartnell wasn't playing - so when he wasn't on the ice, the Flyers attempted fewer shots than their opponents. Umbergers CF% was 46.4, meaning the Jackets allowed 7.2% more shots against than they managed for when Umberger, the great upgrade, was on the ice. The Jackets possessed the puck better when Umberger was off the ice, with the team generating 50.9% of all shot attempts.

 

Similarly, the Flyers generated 58.4% of the goals scored when Hartnell was on the ice. When he wasn't, they were outscored 54-46%. Contrast that with the Jackets, who only scored 46.5% of the total goals scored when Umberger was on the ice, but again, this number jumps up to favor the Jackets when he wasn't on the ice, to 53.7%. Hartnell's career shooting percentage is slightly higher than Umberger's as well, and this is a statistic that tends to move back towards its mean - Umberger's was up last year, so it will most likely drop, and Hartnell's was down.

 

The fact of the matter is that the Flyers dumped a few unfavorable contract years, and that's fine. I'm actually good with the trade for this perspective alone because I think the Flyers need to take a year or two to retool before seriously thinking they are contenders, and Hartnell in two years would become a cap issue and less tradeable as his skill degrade, while Umberger's will be about to expire. But Umberger, statistically, is a worse player. He's not an upgrade. He's more versatile, and maybe slightly faster, but that's about it.

[OccamsRazor]

The numbers are the numbers.

 

Yes they are....zero goals in 7 playoff games. I'm quiet well verse in the Corsi numbers but it don't always tell the whole story....just like Hextalll stated. Fact is Hartnell was ineffective in the playoffs with G, Jake, Kimmo and Coburn. Power forwards skills erode quickly and it maybe where he is heade. It's why he is gone that combined with the fact he can't skate the puck into the offensive zone.

 

But Umberger, statistically, is a worse player. He's not an upgrade. He's more versatile, and maybe slightly faster, but that's about it.

 

RJ didn't play with the quality players that Hartnell played with it;s quiet simple. So you don't think RJ would have better numbers playing with the likes of Jake, Giroux, Kimmo and Coburn?

 

Without a doubt he would. I never said he was an upgrade he has a different skill set and RJ played more of a defensive role. I'm looking forward to seeing what it brings to the team it could be bad or it could be an improvement. We'll see soon. But the move was done for the purpose of having a forward with more versatility not able to only play in one spot. Time will tell if it was a smart move.

[OccamsRazor]

He was a positive possession player. The Flyers attempted more shots than their opponents while he was on the ice.

 

Read Bill Meltzer article today says basically what i'm getting at they are just numbers and don't tell the whole story may be best to combine them. I like both but the eyeball test is a good one too.

 

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-Meltzer/Meltzers-Musings-Tradition-and-Adaptation/45/61721

 

....and i just didn't like what i saw from Hartnell the last quarter of the season and it continued into the playoffs.

[AJgoal]

Yup. a whole 1 point more over a 7 game series than Umberger might have had based on his production in the playoffs before he got benched. And even in the playoffs, when his production was down, he was still a plus possession player over the rest of the team. Here's a stat for you: The Flyers scored at an exactly even clp with the Rangers when Hartnell was on the ice 5 on 5 in that series. When he wasn't? The Flyers scored a staggering 15.4% of the goals total in that series even strength, in other words, the Rangers were outscoring the Flyers 5.5 goals to 1 when Hartnell was on the bench in 5 on 5 situations. They at least broke even when he was playing. The fact of the matter is the Rangers did a number on all of the Flyers, Hartnell among them.

 

 

RJ didn't play with the quality players that Hartnell played with it;s quiet simple. So you don't think RJ would have better numbers playing with the likes of Jake, Giroux, Kimmo and Coburn?

 

Without a doubt he would. I never said he was an upgrade he has a different skill set and RJ played more of a defensive role. I'm looking forward to seeing what it brings to the team it could be bad or it could be an improvement. We'll see soon. But the move was done for the purpose of having a forward with more versatility not able to only play in one spot. Time will tell if it was a smart move.

 

You missed the point. Umberger dragged down the numbers of the players around him. Hartnell elevated the team's numbers. Not the other way around. So Hartnell playing with Giroux and Jake made Giroux and Jake better. Would playing with Giroux and Umberger get him better numbers? Possibly, but line chemistry is a funny thing. It's possible that Umberger's the kind of player that will stall a line. He sure seemed to be in Columbus, no matter who he played with. Every single forward had better stats without R.J. than they did with him.

[OccamsRazor]

Yup. a whole 1 point more over a 7 game series than Umberger might have had based on his production in the playoffs before he got benched

 

RJ was dealing with a shoulder injury and a broken finger but don't let that get in the way.

 

But Crosby gets a pass for being injured and RJ don't. Anyways i'm glad Hartnell is gone. Good luck in Columbus.