COMBINED: "Whither or Not Vinny"

[Mad Dog]

okay so I'm not really missing anything - basically you're saying the Flyers tried it (Lecav and BSchenn together) and it didn't work. Well...I think if BSchenn wants a prominent role with the Flyers (or any NHL club) and a productive career he better figure out how to play with VLC or whoever they put with him. And that applies equally to Mr. Lecavalier - like I said, he has to be the 15-year pro he is and dedicate himself to the Flyers. It will be painfully obvious if he doesn't do that - OTOH if he does work hard and BSchenn starts playing with intensity more often we could have a strong 2nd line.

 

In a perfect world you get your best friend to skate alongside you and your skills complement each other. But when you're in the NHL and it's your profession you figure out how to skate with whoever the coaches give you. And that goes double for a veteran, big-time scorer - even if his big-time was years ago.

 

Well, I think it's more convoluted, unfortunately. For better or worse, Lecavalier was asked to play out of his natural position, keeping Schenn at center.  It happened because the Flyers simply found themselves in a position of having way too many centers to spread amongst 4 lines.  Why and how they did not think about that when they were signing VLC is beyond me, but the fact of the matter is they are in a bad spot. Schenn and Lecavalier did not play well together. Then they put Lecavalier back at center and switched Schenn to the wing, so this time they asked Schenn to be playing out of the position he was used to. It produced similar pitiful results.

 

Ironically, I don't think Schenn is a good center. I think he would be better off adjusting to play the wing because he doesn't strike me as a player who possesses good qualities that a center should possess - good ice vision, being strong on the puck, above-average passing. Probably the only good quality as a center he has is creating space for others. But here is the problem. Schenn is clearly in future Flyers' plans. He was a big part of the Richards trade, Berube is giving him meaningful ice time, and the team has just invested in him financially, showing commitment.

 

I agree with you that if Schenn wants to succeed in this league, he needs to start learning new ropes, showing he can at least try to adjust, and work on developing chemistry with other linemates. But that would be in the perfect world… Who is more important to the Flyers in a bigger picture: VLC or Schenn?  We both know the answer.

 

The Flyers must be at least smart enough to realize that Homer committed a colossal mistake by signing Lecavalier. They can’t undo that deal.  But if they have *any* brain at all, and not just stupid pride and stubbornness, they will look to make things worked out, because at the long run, it's about the team.

Edited July 13, 2014 by Mad Dog

[doom88]

ya good point - forgot about Hartnell's NMC. Umberger's value should remain steady over the next couple years - hopefully - an asset we can use to acquire some defensive help or whatever.

Umberger also has more utility to his game. You can plug him in for a lot of situations that Hartnell didn't necessarily fit.

[radoran]

When?  At practice?  Because I don't recall them doing it during games, but I didn't watch every single game of the season, although I imagine I would've heard of that...

 

There were a few times that, late in games, to "get a spark" they threw that combo out there. I'm Googling, and if I find anything...

 

Here's VLC as a wing on that line last October: http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-flyers/vinny-lecavalier-joins-claude-giroux-on-flyers-top-line

 

It wasn't very long, never was seriously contemplated, but the "failure" was referred to at least a few times IIRC.

[radoran]

I agree with you that if Schenn wants to succeed in this league, he needs to start learning new ropes, showing he can at least try to adjust, and work on developing chemistry with other linemates. But that would be in the perfect world… Who is more important to the Flyers in a bigger picture: VLC or Schenn?  We both know the answer.

 

Which just throws into stark relief the ridiculousness of basing the entire team's composition on the fate of a 34-year-old, declining center.

 

That's not "negativity" - that's the truth.

 

The Flyers must be at least smart enough to realize that Homer committed a colossal mistake by signing Lecavalier. They can’t undo that deal.  But if they have *any* brain at all, and not just stupid pride and stubbornness, they will look to make things worked out, because at the long run, it's about the team.

 

Also not "negativity" - but, rather truth.

 

If the facts of the situation appear negative, it's because they are.

[canoli]

basing the entire team's composition on the fate of a 34-year-old, declining center

 

Oh wow. Rad you don't actually believe that do you? Of course you don't because it can't possibly be true.

 

Now maybe if McKinnon or one of the other young hot stars had fallen to us and you replaced his name with "34-year old, declinging center," well then at least there's a possibility the Flyers based "the entire team's composition" around a young star. But nobody, no not even Snid-gren is (was) that far out of touch with reality to pretend VLC was 22 years old and just beginning his offensive dominance.

 

Go ahead, blast away - lol - I'm fully prepared for the famous Radoran Double-Down Reply.

[canoli]

I don't think Schenn is a good center.

 

I agree, he's not a "good" anything right now but he's getting there I hope. Ah maybe that's too harsh, he's certainly a "good" young forward but we're all expecting a "game-changer" type to eventually be what he becomes. I hope we're not kidding ourselves and I don't think we are. To me all he really lacks is consistent intensity. He gives you a handful of pretty strong shifts per night, the rest of the time he's nearly invisible.

 

But I'm sure he knows that too, and obviously he's got family close by to push him, compete with, etc. I don't think we have to worry too much about BSchenn in the long run. The only question for me is - How long is that long run?

[radoran]

Oh wow. Rad you don't actually believe that do you? Of course you don't because it can't possibly be true.

 

Now maybe if McKinnon or one of the other young hot stars had fallen to us and you replaced his name with "34-year old, declinging center," well then at least there's a possibility the Flyers based "the entire team's composition" around a young star. But nobody, no not even Snid-gren is (was) that far out of touch with reality to pretend VLC was 22 years old and just beginning his offensive dominance.

 

Go ahead, blast away - lol - I'm fully prepared for the famous Radoran Double-Down Reply.

 

"Having" to put VLC somewhere - especially 1/2 line center or, for that matter, Top Six forward of any type - has a direct effect on other players on the roster and the makeup and composition of other lines.

 

If you don't agree with that, I don't know what to tell you. Heck, there are posts throughout this combined thread positing how to make the lines "work" so that the declining 34-year-old center has a chance to make good on his ridiculously bad contract.

 

There's a fundamental reason that the team  - coach, assistant coaches, GM, etc. - decided that fourth line center was the best place to play VLC down the stretch and into the playoffs.

 

Because that's the place he best "fit" on this roster. And while there are people who think that having a $4.5M fourth line center can work (and it can), I don't believe it's the best use of salary cap space for a cap strapped team that still needs a legitimate first line LW (a role for which VLC has already proven unsuited).

 

And I really don't believe you do, either.

 

That's not "blasting away" - that's just the cold, hard facts of the situation. 

 

And, again, I'm far from the only one inconveniently pointing them out.

 

Now, go ahead, and play the famous canoli "nitpick one part of one statement out and decide to debate that while ignoring the rest of the post" reply.

[Phlyer1]

Vinny at Wing did not work! Injury did not help. Put him  at Center which line I don't know but I would try 2nd ans see how it goes.  Just don't expect a line like he and St Louis had.

[jammer2]

  *If* Laughton was to somehow shine in training camp and make the squad (I think the odds are about 50/50)....then, in turn I'd like to see a 2nd line of B.Schenn (on the wing)Cooter (at center) and Simmonds. I'd like to give them a couple months to gel with no tinkering. That would be a tough line to play against and would maximize Cooter's point totals, with the increased ice time and having a physical presence like Simmer to clear up space in the offensive zone. At this point, I pay no attention to VLC, just make the Flyer lines as deep as possible and let the other pieces fall where they may.

[Mad Dog]

  *If* Laughton was to somehow shine in training camp and make the squad (I think the odds are about 50/50)....then, in turn I'd like to see a 2nd line of B.Schenn (on the wing)Cooter (at center) and Simmonds. I'd like to give them a couple months to gel with no tinkering. That would be a tough line to play against and would maximize Cooter's point totals, with the increased ice time and having a physical presence like Simmer to clear up space in the offensive zone. At this point, I pay no attention to VLC, just make the Flyer lines as deep as possible and let the other pieces fall where they may.

 

And that's actually one part that complicates the messed up situation the Flyers are in even more.  From what I am hearing, they are very determined in trying to make room for Laughton. Publicly, Berube is saying they are going to do what's best for the team and put Laughton on the wing, if they have to.  If one is to read between the lines though, they will NOT try him anywhere but a center position, at least not initially.

[jammer2]

And that's actually one part that complicates the messed up situation the Flyers are in even more.  From what I am hearing, they are very determined in trying to make room for Laughton. Publicly, Berube is saying they are going to do what's best for the team and put Laughton on the wing, if they have to.  If one is to read between the lines though, they will NOT try him anywhere but a center position, at least not initially.

  Really....why would they ever want to move him from his natural center position?  He's learned the game inside out from that position, and mastered the defensive aspects of playing in the middle. That's not even discussing the fact he was voted best face off man in the OHL...that is a pretty big feat, cause the OHL is full of players who are elite at face offs. That tells me there is a really good chance that his skills at draws will be relevant in the NHL also...and this is a big area of concern for the Flyers....so it makes us better right away. Last year, our best guy on draws was Hall, who was not on the ice in big enough situations to really take advantage of his skill set. Laughton, in a shut down role to start off, would take a lot of key draws in his own end...which = a nice big plus for the Flyers.

[doom88]

Put him in the AHL and let him learn to be a pro. And play against men.

[canoli]

"Having" to put VLC somewhere - especially 1/2 line center or, for that matter, Top Six forward of any type - has a direct effect on other players on the roster and the makeup and composition of other lines

 

I agree with this and your entire reply. But all that is a far cry from "the Flyers based the entire composition of the team around" VLC. One is a reasonable assesment of the difficulties the Flyers face as they try to work an underperforming veteran forward into their lineup, a center who's game was pretty one-dimensional already. The other is a dramatic (and [edit: imo] inaccurate) spin on the situation.

Edited July 13, 2014 by canoli

[Mad Dog]

I agree, he's not a "good" anything right now but he's getting there I hope. Ah maybe that's too harsh, he's certainly a "good" young forward but we're all expecting a "game-changer" type to eventually be what he becomes. I hope we're not kidding ourselves and I don't think we are. To me all he really lacks is consistent intensity. He gives you a handful of pretty strong shifts per night, the rest of the time he's nearly invisible.

 

 

Well, I wouldn't go as far as saying he is not good right now.  One unfamiliar with the team would read it and interpret as if he is basically useless.  I like his instincts; he anticipates the game well enough for his age, I would say.  And like I mentioned earlier, he seems to be pretty good at creating space for others.

 

He absolutely needs to get better in many areas of the game; no two ways about it.  The reason we are expecting so much from him is because the scouting report on him was very positive.  He also came as a big piece for Richards, who happened to win 2 Cups shortly thereafter.  I don't think the fans are unjustified expecting more than what we've gotten so far from him...

 

And the only way he can capitilize on his potential is play more and keep working on polishing his game.  But I don't think having Vinnie as his linesmate will better his development, based on what we've seen last year.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Mad Dog

[mojo1917]

RE: Schenn ( the good one ).

If one watches him play , one sees lots of nice pieces of a complete hockey player, one shift he might have a nice, effective hit, another shift he might make a pick pocket play on a tie up behind the opposing goalie and create a scoring chance , another shift he might make a nice play in the NZ and put a shot on net...the issue is one doesn't see all that stuff on the same shift, and it is what we expect of him since we traded our captain for him. He is not without ability or drive, he just hasn't "put it all together " yet.

He plays way more effectively as a pivot.

[brelic]

Maintaining the perspective one had when the deal went down in the first place - that it was a bad deal for the team that didn't solve any problems and created more than a few of its own - isn't "falling into a trap of negativity" it's being consistent to one's opinions and beliefs. The facts are that the facts support the original perspective.

 

There's nothing we can do about the signing. He's here. He makes a lot of money. And he wasn't needed when we got him. At this point, I'm just saying, So what? Let's make the most of it. 

 

I mean, seriously, you could do this all day, rad, and find a way to turn any point into a negative. 

 

Aren't we all here to enjoy watching the Flyers play hockey? I firmly believe that whether or not I enjoy it is entirely dependent on my own approach to it. Everything is framed by perspective.

[aziz]

Aren't we all here to enjoy watching the Flyers play hockey?

 

well, no.  not everyone.  clever negativity is an end unto itself, in some cases.

 

as for VLC.  i do find it kind of....lacking in anything resembling perspective for people to be upset about a finesse forward "needing" to be put into a top 6 spot to be in any way worth his contract.  like that is some kind of unusual requirement.  big money + primarily offensive talent = top 6 icetime.  how effective would giroux be as a 4th line center?  what if patrick kane were given 7 minutes per night plus powerplay time?  of course someone like VLC needs top 6 icetime to even hint at being worth his contract.  anyone acting surprised at that --much less finding some kind of umbrage with it-- is letting a legitimate dislike of the player get in the way of basic common sense.  you are paying a guy $4.5mil/year, and every single bit of his upside is firmly in the offensive arena, then yeah, probably need to give him 16+ minutes a night if you want that contract to end up doing anything for your team at all.

 

and here' the thing:  frankly, VLC is the best 2nd line center option, with schenn moving up to 1st line LW (i'm a fan of umberger, but he has no business on the 1st line).  and at that point, VLC is a good thing, and the flyers would have a tough to fill hole without him.  and if, say, evander kane makes his way to the team without VLC going the other way, schenn would just slide over to the LW on the 2nd line.  there is just no basis for all the "VLC is in the way" stuff.  without him, schenn is the 2nd line C, and i don't think there is a worse matching of skill sets to position in the league than brayden schenn as a center.

 

so, yeah.  the whole "VLC is a problem" thing is a little overblown, and the indignation at him requiring top 6 icetime is more than a little silly.  if someone comes in and proves they are a stronger second pivot in a year or two, then yes, there is cause for heartburn.  right now, as the roster currently stands?  none.

[brelic]

so, yeah.  the whole "VLC is a problem" thing is a little overblown, and the indignation at him requiring top 6 icetime is more than a little silly.  if someone comes in and proves they are a stronger second pivot in a year or two, then yes, there is cause for heartburn.  right now, as the roster currently stands?  none.

 

 

I guess what I was getting at is that I felt the signing was a mistake from the moment it was announced, but I am changing my perspective to a positive one on VLC while he remains with the team. May as well enjoy it, right?

 

Of course, as I say this, I'm sure he'll be traded tomorrow!

[pilldoc]

saw this response  from someone on Bill Meltzer's Blog...... it does make some sense.  Though we would have to endure VLC for the coming year.

 

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/boards/thread.php?thread_id=118823&forum_id=1"

 

"This is a bit of a high-risk, high-reward gambit, but I'd consider the following:

1. Find a team that really needs centers and trade B. Schenn for a comparable young skilled LW. Speed is a must, and ability to carry the puck critical as well.

2. Put Vinnie at 2nd line center, and either give him Jake or whoever they get in a trade.

3. Put Laughton in the A at 1st line center. We need to see if he has any offensive ability, or if he really taps out as a defensive center.

4. See what happens at the trade deadline.

Best case - Vinnie has a great 1st half and Laughton tears it up in the minors. Then you could assess Vinnie's trade value and move Laughton or Couts into 2nd line spot. Or you could keep Vinnie and Laughton becomes a big bargaining chip.

If Vinnie has a great 1st half, and Laughton shows growing pains in the A, then you keep Vinnie for the year and give Laughton time to grow. If Laughton excels on D but shows little offense, you could still move Couts into the 2nd C spot and put Laughton on as 3rd C.

If Vinnie struggles but Laughton does well, then you have little choice but to buy out Vinnie, or demote him to the 4th line.

The worst case is obviously if they both struggle. Then, having traded Schenn you might have a temporary hole at 2nd line center.

I would seriously consider this assuming a) you could get a good young winger for Schenn, and b) they really are as high on Laughton as we think they are and they think Couturier has the potential to play 2nd line center."

 

Face it...no matter what happens...VLC is going to be a thorn in everyone's side.  So how do we make the best of the situation if VLC is in fact on the opening day roster.  Now do you trade Schenn EVEN THOUGH you just gave him a big contract extension.  It will make the Flyers look awefully bad if they decide to move Schenn.  Please take the above with a grain of salt.  It is only an idea someone else posted that I thougt had some merit to discuss.

 

[PhilsFanDrew]

@pilldoc

" Now do you trade Schenn EVEN THOUGH you just gave him a big contract extension.  It will make the Flyers look awefully bad if they decide to move Schenn."

 

Not really.  They signed Schenn for 2 yr/$5 mill.   Thats not really a big contract extension and its not really a contract that signals long term commitment.  Schenn had to know he signed a team friendly deal for the Flyers.   It allows the Flyers to buy time and see if he pans out to be a player they want to invest in long term with big money and it is a friendly cap hit that if they decide to move him the contract is short and palatable for most potential trading partners.   

[pilldoc]

@pilldoc

" Now do you trade Schenn EVEN THOUGH you just gave him a big contract extension.  It will make the Flyers look awefully bad if they decide to move Schenn."

 

Not really.  They signed Schenn for 2 yr/$5 mill.   Thats not really a big contract extension and its not really a contract that signals long term commitment.  Schenn had to know he signed a team friendly deal for the Flyers.   It allows the Flyers to buy time and see if he pans out to be a player they want to invest in long term with big money and it is a friendly cap hit that if they decide to move him the contract is short and palatable for most potential trading partners.   

 

oops thought it was for longer and more....my bad.....thanks for the clarification.  Yeah..then what you say makes sense.

[jammer2]

  Not sure if anyone has posted this Laughton video, a LOT of stuff to like here. *This* skill set that he is showing off, it* will* make the jump to the NHL with no real problems....a list of reasons why:

 

 http://broadstreetbuzz.com/2014/03/06/cant-wait-scott-laughton/

 

 1)Scott is very creative, he's not dependent on anyone else feeding him the puck, he takes control and bull rushes the net.

 2)Love his play without the puck, his legs are in constant perpetual motion, guys that can't hack doing this at the OHL level....they are dead in the water when they make the jump.

 3)Hard heavy shot, whether it's a quick wrister, a booming slap shot or a quick release snap...he hit's where he is aiming more often than not.

 4)The puck seems to just fly off his stick, which is one of the things you look for as a scout, I compare it to a short stops ball transfer from glove to throwing arm, it's quick and fluid, with no thinking required, just muscle memory.

 5)He can dig into his bag of tricks and use a vast array of tactics to get himself open. The impressive thing is, he can do everything at full speed....nothing forced, all just pure skill and instinct. If you can't make perform at top speed, your offensive upside is nil. You've gotta be able to pull off that multi-tasking.

 

  To be fair, Scott would not have got away with a lot of this stuff in the NHL, some of those d-men are young pylons....lol. Still, very promising things coming from this kid.

[LegionOfDoom]

Back when Homer was GM, the year before the Flyers acquired Vinny, they made the statement that they didn't have enough scoring, with the absence of Jagr, Carter, etc. where were they going to get scoring as there goals for were nothing to sing about. Homer was also of the school that a forward should be able to play any position, hence we picked up Vinny. For supposed goals and his "ability" to play any position(because Homer said so).

And Lavy of coarse.

"That's" why we have Vinny, That is the "reason" according to GM/Coach/owner in that order. Though I have a strong suspicion Mr. Snider was eyebrowing this transaction from his desk.

After the dust settled a season later, we now look at this transaction with disdain and collusion to all Flyer fans.

Homer thought this would help the team with having another puck possession goal scorer slash leader on the team. Jagr and Briere were gone.

I'm not saying I agree with this trade, but that was his framed logic behind it. His motto was contracts and cap limits were bridges that were dealt with when crossing, thus Vinny's contract figures.

I'm curious to see Bellemare as he seems to be another Umby "versatile type" player. Him, Vinny and Raffl would be an interesting experimental line or take Raffle off and put Umby there as there 4th line, summer camp tryout. Schenn needs a full season as a center with decent complimentary vet wingers to help him grow, not young inexperienced wingers on the same boat "trying to figure it out" as well linemates. I think maybe a Bellemare/ Umby line combo might help him as well.

Edited July 17, 2014 by LegionOfDoom

[brelic]

Even non-Flyers fans could see it was a puzzling signing. These are some of the top comments on TSN on the very day it was announced he would sign with Philly last year:

 

July 4, 2013 4:47PM

The no move clause is the worse thing to agree with. If Lecavalier starts playing badly, then you're screwed. Plus, when you include this with a 5 year contract, it just seems like bad GMing to me. 

 

evvy1

July 4, 2013 2:01PM

Flyers are spending a lot of cap space for a one-way floater. 

 

jammershorts

July 4, 2013 12:48PM

Lecavalier has been a favourite since he joined, but he is simply not worth $6 million for the 2013-14 season. Holmgren will have to buy out this contract in the summer of 2015 or 2016. How does Holmgren keep his job? 

 

kswizzle

July 4, 2013 8:46AM

Yes the flyers had alot of man games lost at 264 for the season but 96 of those games were missed by Pronger, Shelley and Leighton. Shelley and Leighton are not exactly key peices to a successful flyers team and yes losing Pronger is but lets be honest Pronger is done and its time that they fill his spot. So the Flyers poor results are not due to the injuries but to poor management. Management just throws money at every available free agent there is without any direct plan other than we have to have him because he is available. What GM trades guys like Carter and Richards after signing them long term. What has philly done since and well we know what Carter and Richards did they won a cup. Good luck with Lecavalier Philly you will need it. 

 

bob digi

July 4, 2013 8:11AM

5 years for a 33 year old. What are the Flyers doing? They never learn

 

 

 

Best case scenario is that Vinny is fully recovered from his injuries, and comes to camp ready to play the way he did in the first dozen games before he got injured. If we get 20/50 out of him, that's certainly helpful to the team.

[Lindbergh31]

  Pressbox him until he gets mothballs built up in his thousand dollar suits!!  Pressbox him for so long he will pay the Flyers a million bucks to trade him. Seriously, if he is not one of the top 12 forwards on this team, he needs to not play, big contract or not. He's under 35, so if he retires he just comes right off the cap....no?  Embarrass him into retirement!!!

I'm with you Jammer2, I'd alternate between him playing 2nd line centre, 4th line centre and the pressbox. If he doesn't like that then maybe he'll consider adding more teams to his list of places to be traded to. The ideal situation is for him to get injured and the Flyers put him on LTIR or he decides to retire (which is wishful thinking). Or we can hope that he has a better second year, contributes a lot and we want to see him in the lineup. If all else fails then the Flyers can buy him out next summer when there is only $10 million left owing him and they pay 2/3 over the next 6 years or buy him out after year 3.