radoran Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 I'm not sure why you think Giroux does not make the players around him better. How would you define "making them better?" Hartnell, Simmonds, Voracek - all three of these guys directly benefit from Giroux on 5 v 5 play and on the PP. Giroux quarterbacks the entire thing and makes it happen. He's absolutely "making them better" in my eyes by providing smart plays and opportunities for those guys to cash in. A lesser player would not do that. He doesn't have the Crosby effect for sure, but it's hard to imagine those three guys I mentioned putting up points at the same pace without Giroux's help. I think there is obviously a Giroux effect on the players around him, but it is a matter of degree. Voracek, for example, was a solid 45-50 point player for his entire career. He's being "lifted" to around 60 points - at best a 10-15 point shift. Last season seems to be an outlier - he had one more goal in 48 games last year than he has in 74 this year. And he's been a consistent presence on Giroux's wing all season this year. Hartnell, likewise, is pretty much a career 50-point player - with an outlier of 67 with Giroux and Jagr and is pretty much back to his 20/50 baseline. Simmonds, I think, is somewhat a reflection of his increased role with the team (1st line PP) and I find it hard to argue that a similarly increased role on a different squad wouldn't have resulted in an uptick in scoring. Giroux is the QB on the PP and the PP runs through him, but that's the same as it is for many teams - their PP QB "makes other players better". On the flip side, I don't think Chris Kunitz is a 35-goal scorer on many other players' wings - even with Perry and Getzlaf he topped out at 25. Pascal Dupuis had one 20-goal season when not with Crosby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 I think there is obviously a Giroux effect on the players around him, but it is a matter of degree. Solid post all around, rad. And really, this is what I was getting at - as you say, it is a matter of degree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B21 Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Solid post all around, rad. And really, this is what I was getting at - as you say, it is a matter of degree. @radoran kinda stole my "thunder". I don't disagree that Giroux makes the players around him better - just not to the degree Crosby does. To add on to radoran's comments....has Simmonds increased production in each year been a product of the time on ice he shares with Giroux? Or just the natural progression of a young player coming into his own? Ditto Schenn (The Good Schenn) and Voracek. I'd say both. Hartnell's career year was as much a credit to Jagr is it was Giroux. Kunitz is having his third straight "career" year starting at age 32 in the 11-12 season. The same can be said for Dupuis (up until his injury this year) also starting at age 32 in 11-12. Take Giroux away from the Flyers and you lose his 80-85 points and maybe a small drop in points from his linemates. Take Crosby away from the Pens and you lose his 100-105 points and see Kunitz and Dupuis lose about 20 points each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 If Crosby had continued to slump in this post-Olympic portion if the season I'd say there would be a chance a Giroux, Getzlaf or Bergeron wins it.. But he's scoring in bunches again. Done deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 @radoran kinda stole my "thunder". I don't disagree that Giroux makes the players around him better - just not to the degree Crosby does. To add on to radoran's comments....has Simmonds increased production in each year been a product of the time on ice he shares with Giroux? Or just the natural progression of a young player coming into his own? Ditto Schenn (The Good Schenn) and Voracek. I'd say both. Hartnell's career year was as much a credit to Jagr is it was Giroux. Kunitz is having his third straight "career" year starting at age 32 in the 11-12 season. The same can be said for Dupuis (up until his injury this year) also starting at age 32 in 11-12. Take Giroux away from the Flyers and you lose his 80-85 points and maybe a small drop in points from his linemates. Take Crosby away from the Pens and you lose his 100-105 points and see Kunitz and Dupuis lose about 20 points each. So if you take Crosby out and everyone suffers, how did the Pens end up with 108 points when he only played 22 games? Or 106 when he played 41? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 I don't disagree that Giroux makes the players around him better - just not to the degree Crosby does. Completely agree, and I even conceded that in my post. I'm under no illusion that Giroux is in the same category as Crosby. And the Hart is less about the degree to which a player makes those around him better and more about how valuable - i.e. important - he is to his team. That's the reason I brought up the 2010 and 2011 Pens regular season records to give us a glimpse into how the Pens perform with and without Crosby. And it appears that it's about the same, largely because Malkin is a top 5 NHL talent in his own right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Completely agree, and I even conceded that in my post. I'm under no illusion that Giroux is in the same category as Crosby. And the Hart is less about the degree to which a player makes those around him better and more about how valuable - i.e. important - he is to his team. That's the reason I brought up the 2010 and 2011 Pens regular season records to give us a glimpse into how the Pens perform with and without Crosby. And it appears that it's about the same, largely because Malkin is a top 5 NHL talent in his own right. Malkin hasn't really been shining this season despite his point totals, and Crosby has been the rock everything else is built around this year. The boo boo bus has been putting on high mileage for us this year... Malkin, Orpik, Martin, Neal, Dupuis, Scuderi, Letang, Vokoun, Bennett... Our AHL call ups needed to be replaced by AHL call ups... The only thing consistent and working have been Crosby and *gulp* Fleury. The supporting cast argument went out the window this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 OV has no even strength points in March He's really disappeared. I think they replaced him in Socchi with Alexander Daigle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Good stat summary I saw today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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