Hart Trophy

[yave1964]

@Vanflyer

If Washington makes it into the playoffs and Ovechkin scores 60 goals no matter if they are even strength, power play, empty netters, shorties or between the legs off the netting and in he has to deserve some consideration. Truthfully, I see him as 5th or 6th for the Hart. Now if they miss the playoffs which is a very real possibility in spite of gaudy statistics all bets are off and he has to be dropped from the conversation. Kessel kind of the same thing. Lets say he scores ten goals the final six games and gets his Leafs turned around and they make the playoffs and potentially win a round, well yes he would merit some discussion as well, but right now the way that his team has collapsed around him forgetaboutit,

[flyercanuck]

@yave1964

 

 Kessel and his 4 points in the last 10 games in the stretch run? When his team really needs him? That's not screaming MVP to me.

[yave1964]

@yave1964

 

 Kessel and his 4 points in the last 10 games in the stretch run? When his team really needs him? That's not screaming MVP to me.

That is what I am saying, the way he is playing he is out of the picture but if the Leafs sweep their final six and Kessel scores 10 goals in that stretch his overall numbers are good enough to earn him a passing nod. but truthfully, there is no way to justify consideration of anyone other than Crosby this year. Several players have been outstanding including Getzlaf and Giroux, but Crosby has been ten percent better than outstanding even with all the injuries. Hell, he made Stempniak relevant.

[J0e Th0rnton]

I am pondering this more now and the last 11 games will tell. I am changing my order: 

 

1) Girioux

 

2) Getzlaf

 

3) Crosby

 

I know it is hard to put Crosby at number three since he is the Ross Trophy leader now, but when you look at it, Crosby has Malking and Getzlaf has Perry. There has not been a more meaningful player to their team since November, than Giroux. I am not just talking about production. 

 

For me, production matters of course, but I always  will ask my self if you remove "x" (insert player name) from the team, where would said team be? That is the definition of MVP to me. 

 

Its close all the way around. I think Crosby was the best player the first three months. While I don't get to watch him much, Getz has been consistent the whole year. What Giroux has done (put the team on his back) since November has been extraordinary to me. 

 

The lester b will tell the true tale of this. 

Imo, how the team is doing should matter a lot in Hart Discussion. If you are a standout on a top team, it is a factor. If your team is outside the top 4 in your conference, you better be having an amazing personal performance season to get Hart consideration.

 

In my case, the Sharks are playing great, but nobody can be clearly picked as a reason. Nobody is going to get Hart consideration under those circumstances, even though Joe Thornton is continuing to solidify his position as a top 10 playmaker of all time. I see Getzlaf coming up in conversations for the Hart, but I am wondering why he is being held up as a candidate above Perry. We play them often enough that I think they are playing almost equally well and are equally valuable to the ducks. Perry seems more dominant in puck possession, scores more big goals and is good two way, although Getz is better and overall, I hate him and Getzlaf about equally.

 

In the case of Crosby, Malkin hasn't been playing all that well this season(Despite what his point totals tell you), while Crosby is just dominant and the team is near the top of the heap.

[Polaris922]

@Polaris922

 

 Nobodys calling out Crosby on his two way play, it was one instance. You guys don;'t have to run to his defence everytime...he's a big boy.

 

If nobody's calling him out on it, why is there a video of him behind the play and it's pointed out how lame his backcheck is?  Was that a mirage?   LOL 

[JackStraw]

If nobody's calling him out on it, why is there a video of him behind the play and it's pointed out how lame his backcheck is?  Was that a mirage?   LOL

There was also an article accompanying that video.

[Vanflyer]

If Washington makes it into the playoffs and Ovechkin scores 60 goals no matter if they are even strength, power play, empty netters, shorties or between the legs off the netting and in he has to deserve some consideration.

60 is a huge number- especially in todays day and age. I just can't get behind it if allot of those goals are coming because of either playing only 100 feet (brett hull / pavel bure say hello) or special teams.

Truthfully, I see him as 5th or 6th for the Hart.

I can't see him even for that right now. Here is his line for the month of March:11gp 4g-1a-5 pts, a whopping -10 in that stretch. This includes a mammoth Phaneuf like turd he laid in today's loss to Nashville (which may be the final nail in washingtons season). 3 of those points came in a 4-5 loss against LA. Aside from that game his line reads like this: 10 gp 2g-0A-2pts and a -10. So, for the critical stretch run, he has done nothing, nada- except leave a foul odor on the ice.

I can't mention hart looking at that.

Edited March 31, 2014 by Vanflyer

[Vanflyer]

Kessel and his 4 points in the last 10 games in the stretch run? When his team really needs him? That's not screaming MVP to me.

 

Ovie and his 5 points and -10 in his last 11 games in the stretch run? Neither should be part of the conversation for Hart. 

 

Let them win their respective teams MVP award and be done with it. Not a prestigious NHL award. 

[ruxpin]

even though Joe Thornton is continuing to solidify his position as a top 10 puss of all time

 

Sorry (unless this is the year) with his time in Boston and San Jose, he'll forever--for me--be a loser who just doesn't, or can't, get it done at go time.

[JackStraw]

 

 

I love the internet.

Oops, forgot the link: http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/puck-daddy/sidney-crosby--alex-ovechkin-and-the-disconnected-xbox-controller-180131158.html

[flyercanuck]

@Polaris922

 

 OK, sorry I forgot this was the annointed one...Jack.... LEAVE CROSBY ALONE!!!

 

 @JackStraw

 

 The play is similiar to Iginla yesterday (in making him look foolish in a small sample size). He gets nailed by Rinaldo and should have taken his number and left it at that. Instead he calls Rinaldo out, who immediately takes him up on it and pummels him. Makes Iginla look like a complete fool on the play. 9 times out of 10 Iginla eithers makes the right move there and nails Rinaldo later, or beats the crap out of him when they do fight.

[ruxpin]

Oops, forgot the link: http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/puck-daddy/sidney-crosby--alex-ovechkin-and-the-disconnected-xbox-controller-180131158.html

 

 

My favorite part of the Ovechkin video is "controller disconnected."   Yeah, I'd say.

[JackStraw]

My favorite part of the Ovechkin video is "controller disconnected."   Yeah, I'd say.

 

Fair or unfair, the Ovechkin one is hilarious.

[Polaris922]

@flyercanuck

Hahaha!

@everyone

I thought the Rinaldo hit was great. I thought Iginla was unusually stupid in fighting over it. As stated, you've got all game to hit back!

[B21]

Just heard an interesting stat on the NHL channel on satellite radio...

 

OV has no even strength points in March.

[radoran]

Just heard an interesting stat on the NHL channel on satellite radio...

 

OV has no even strength points in March.

 

15 games, nine points, 7 ppg, 1 ppa, 1sha

 

-17 and -34 for the season.

 

the playoff push

[brelic]

Ok, let's go back to basics.

 

The Hart trophy is awarded to the "player judged most valuable to his team." 

 

In this case, Giroux's slow start actually helps his case, IMO. He didn't take those 20 games off... he was struggling/recovering from an injury, the coach was fired, and the entire team looked like an AHL squad. In that light, you can make the case that without Giroux, there is absolutely no way they are even sniffing a playoff spot, let alone fighting for home ice and 2nd in the division. He is, hands down, the most valuable player to his team (and one that is fighting for a spot... I don't think you could make a case for the Hart for a non-playoff team). 

 

Even though Malkin has not been playing that well this season, he has almost as many points as Giroux (72 vs 78). Not exactly MIA. And we've seen in the past where Malkin has carried this team when Crosby was out. That being said, I don't think there is any doubt that Crosby is the most valuable player to the Pens.

 

But at the end of the day, who is more valuable to his team? I would say Giroux. The Flyers would fall apart without him, whereas the Pens would still have a legitimate top 5 NHL player as their first line center without Crosby. Whether or not the Hockey Writers see it that way is a different story.

[canoli]

The Hart trophy is awarded to the "player judged most valuable to his team."

In this case, Giroux's slow start actually helps his case, IMO. He didn't take those 20 games off... he was struggling/recovering from an injury, the coach was fired, and the entire team looked like an AHL squad. In that light, you can make the case that without Giroux, there is absolutely no way they are even sniffing a playoff spot,

 

 

great post Brel - first one I've read making the case that Giroux's slow start highlights just how critical he is to the Flyers. I agree. I figure the Hart should go to a guy who is flat-out indispensible to his team's success, the guy nobody can replace. Basically: "Where would this team be without ____?"

 

Your point about Malkin is valid. Take away Crosby and the Pens almost certainly still win the Metro and are one of the Cup favorites...obviously much weaker without 87 but definitely still in the hunt. Same with Getz, Perry, Pavelski, Bergeron - these guys all have a supporting cast that could aborb their loss. But the Flyers simply can't compete without Giroux.

 

I love Simmonds, I love the goaltending ... Berube should be a Jack Adams candidate ... but without Giroux the Flyers are nowhere, not even in the PO conversation.

[radoran]

Same with Getz, Perry, Pavelski, Bergeron - these guys all have a supporting cast that could aborb their loss. But the Flyers simply can't compete without Giroux.

 

I'll disagree a bit on Getzlaf. Don't forget that Anaheim lost Ryan - without Getzlaf, the Ducks are Corey Perry and their next two scorers are Nick Bonino (43 points) and Matthieu Perrault (40 points) and just two more 20+ goal scorers (Bonino, Cogliano).

 

Flyers are a much deeper and much more balanced team, IMO. I think the Ducks run the serious risk of being a victim of a "shut down one line" playoff strategy.

 

Giroux should absolutely merit consideration for the award. I don't really see a "clear cut" Hart winner, but given that the Pens are riding high in the standings and Crosby is likely going to be the only guy in triple digits, I see the "skate by media" going with Crosby as a prohibitive favorite.

[canoli]

I think the Ducks run the serious risk of being a victim of a "shut down one line" playoff strategy.

 

well I don't know...they seem to get pretty balanced scoring anyway - all of their centers are right around 20 goals (or over). But you're right the Flyers are producing an even more balanced attack. Of course the Flyers are distinguishing themselves this year in that department - aren't they 1 of only 2 (or 3?) teams with seven 15-goal guys? something like that. Also I think we're getting close to having the most 20-goal guys too.

 

gotta agree with you about Crosby though - he's the no-brainer pick for many reasons, most of them (but not all of them) valid. Once he crosses 100 points, which will likely be the next game he'll be a lock for the Hart.

[B21]

Ok, let's go back to basics.

 

The Hart trophy is awarded to the "player judged most valuable to his team." 

 

In this case, Giroux's slow start actually helps his case, IMO. He didn't take those 20 games off... he was struggling/recovering from an injury, the coach was fired, and the entire team looked like an AHL squad. In that light, you can make the case that without Giroux, there is absolutely no way they are even sniffing a playoff spot, let alone fighting for home ice and 2nd in the division. He is, hands down, the most valuable player to his team (and one that is fighting for a spot... I don't think you could make a case for the Hart for a non-playoff team). 

 

Even though Malkin has not been playing that well this season, he has almost as many points as Giroux (72 vs 78). Not exactly MIA. And we've seen in the past where Malkin has carried this team when Crosby was out. That being said, I don't think there is any doubt that Crosby is the most valuable player to the Pens.

 

But at the end of the day, who is more valuable to his team? I would say Giroux. The Flyers would fall apart without him, whereas the Pens would still have a legitimate top 5 NHL player as their first line center without Crosby. Whether or not the Hockey Writers see it that way is a different story.

 

Great post but - using that rationale - Crosby should never win the Hart so long as Malkin is healthy and putting up his usual point totals. 

 

Flyers fans here (in general) have harped on the "advantage" the Flyers have with their depth over the Pens who have Crosby, Malkin and a handful of "stiffs" whose point totals are inflated simply by the fact that they play with Crosby and Malkin (Neal, Kunitz and Dupuis aren't stiffs but it's no secret their numbers are much better with Crosby and Malkin than without).

 

As important as Giroux is to the Flyers he does not make the players around him better - at least not to the extent Crosby does.  If Giroux goes down, I don't see the point totals of his linemates falling off nearly as much as Kunitz, Dupuis or whatever AHLer was thrown into the mix before Stempniak.

 

When the season is over the Flyers will likely have seven players with 20+ goals.  The Pens will have five.  Philly right now has 10 players with at leat 30 points.   The Pens might get 7. Pens are better at the top.  Flyers better top to bottom....which speaks volumes as to how valuable Crosby is to the Pens.

[radoran]

gotta agree with you about Crosby though - he's the no-brainer pick for many reasons, most of them (but not all of them) valid. Once he crosses 100 points, which will likely be the next game he'll be a lock for the Hart.

 

There may very well be more guys who are "more valuable to their teams" but that's not really what the award is about.

 

And they're simply never going to give it to a guy who has 20-25 points less than the league leader.

 

Since the lockout - and that's just as far back as I went - when it wasn't the league point leader (5 of 8), the most the league point leader had over the Hart winner was 6 points (Perry over DSedin in 10-11).

[canoli]

the most the league point leader had over the Hart winner was 6 points (Perry over DSedin in 10-11).

 

wow that's interesting. I guess I still think of the Hart the way it was when Pronger won it... (man that's a long time ago) LOL.

 

I wonder if that's the last time a D-man won it...have to look that up - yep, sure was, 1999-2000.

 

holycrap can you guess which D-man won it before Pronger? Hint - it was a looooong time before Pronger.

[radoran]

holycrap can you guess which D-man won it before Pronger? Hint - it was a looooong time before Pronger.

 

Only other Dman since expansion.

 

Some guy named "Orr"

[brelic]

Great post but - using that rationale - Crosby should never win the Hart so long as Malkin is healthy and putting up his usual point totals. 

 

Yes, perhaps you could make that argument. Would the Pens still be a top tier team without Crosby leading the way? In '10-11, he missed half the season, yet the Pens finished with 106 points. The next season, he played only 22 games, and the Pens were even better, finishing with 108 points. I realize the team's composition has changed over the past few seasons, but that appears to show that the Pens can still do extremely well without Crosby. In fact, they seem to not miss a beat - they're on pace for basically the 106-108 point range this season, same as they were when Crosby missed 60 games. 

 

 

 

 

As important as Giroux is to the Flyers he does not make the players around him better - at least not to the extent Crosby does.  If Giroux goes down, I don't see the point totals of his linemates falling off nearly as much as Kunitz, Dupuis or whatever AHLer was thrown into the mix before Stempniak.

 

I'm not sure why you think Giroux does not make the players around him better. How would you define "making them better?" Hartnell, Simmonds, Voracek - all three of these guys directly benefit from Giroux on 5 v 5 play and on the PP. Giroux quarterbacks the entire thing and makes it happen. He's absolutely "making them better" in my eyes by providing smart plays and opportunities for those guys to cash in. A lesser player would not do that. He doesn't have the Crosby effect for sure, but it's hard to imagine those three guys I mentioned putting up points at the same pace without Giroux's help. 

 

 

 

When the season is over the Flyers will likely have seven players with 20+ goals.  The Pens will have five.  Philly right now has 10 players with at leat 30 points.   The Pens might get 7. Pens are better at the top.  Flyers better top to bottom....which speaks volumes as to how valuable Crosby is to the Pens

 

That's a valid point. The Flyers seemingly have more depth top to bottom than the Pens. The one caution I would throw in there is how well those guys would do with added pressure to produce. Vinny would become the 1st line center, and maybe he would thrive in that role, who knows.