Your opinion of fighting

[fanaticV3.0]

No, I don't think he was trying to brush dandruff off. When I say "not hostile", I mean he's not pushing him around and getting in his face - he's rather passive (if that was a roughing attempt, it was pretty pathetic  ). I don't see how that can be interpreted as Kessel starting it. Scott drops his gloves and goes straight after him.

 

No idea what their discussion was about or why he did what he did, but "brushing" his hand against Scott is not a "hostile" action, in the sense that anybody would interpret it as the beginning of a consensual fight. If you think Kessel was starting a fight there, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

For what it's worth, I don't think an enforcer going after a non-fighting scorer like that is EVER right, barring that scorer throwing a big cheap shot. I gave the example of Colton Orr jumping Brian Gionta, who was part of a group of Habs clearly engaged with Orr.

 

 

 

So because Kessel got "fancy" with his stick in two games, he should be considered a cheap shot artist after a clean record prior to that? Especially with nobody getting hurt? Don't think so. I don't think he's an angel or anything, but my point was a lot of players make dirty plays when they are pissed off.

 

But hey, you're entitled to your opinion of course.

 

There is literally no other reason to put your hands on somebody - particularly in a hockey game - other than to start a fight.

 

You use your stick like a baseball bat on 3 separate occasions, you're dirty.

[Evilmonkey]

My take on fighting in today's era is that as long as it is a heat of the moment fight then its all good, but this sending out a goon or 4th line guy and the other team doing the same and them fighting is just stupid. Goalies fighting is retarded.....im not disputing that its entertaining but if i want to be entertained by fighting i will go watch UFC. In baseball when the benches clear everytime there is a fight i laugh at how un professional and stupid/childish it is so im sure big baseball fans look at hockey in the same light when it happens. Back in the 70's etc when the ref's seem to do absolutely nothing u needed a goon to protect your best players they game is so much different now, the league reviews everything and refs call everything (for the most part) so having a guy that does nothing but fight is stupid.

 

fights i like - 1 players has been all over the other player all night they battle hard finally hits a breaking point they drop the gloves (awesome)

 

fights i hate - puck drops at a face off 2 players immediately drop gloves and start fighting (dumb)

 

other fights i hate - guy lands awesome CLEAN body check on opposing player, opposing players teammate feels the need to come fight the guy that laid the body check....this one is probably my biggest pet peeve, checking is part of the game and if i guy gets nailed (CLEANLY) then there is no need to go and fight that guy in his honor 

[B21]

I think Sean Couturier will disagree with you.....Sure did not take long to show his colors....

 

I mean wow. That one-handed shove is boarding.  If that's all it takes to send Coots into the boards?

 

Coots sure did try to sell it though.  And the Flyers sure seemed upset.

 

Keep reaching.

[Commander Clueless]

There is literally no other reason to put your hands on somebody - particularly in a hockey game - other than to start a fight.

 

You use your stick like a baseball bat on 3 separate occasions, you're dirty.

 

I completely disagree with your first line. But if you think that Phil Kessel had the intent of start a fight with John Scott (think about it for a second, never even mind his surprised and panicked reaction), I'm not sure what to say. Anyway, my main point there in relation to the topic of fighting is that sort of "fighting" has no place in the game, IMO. If Kessel drops his gloves or punches Scott in the face, different story.

 

Considering he earned a grand total of one suspension for his stickwork in the span of two games I'll wait before I label him a "cheapshot artist", thanks. Not saying his actions were acceptable or clean, but you're jumping on a guy pretty quick there given his previous track record.

[radoran]

I completely disagree with your first line. But if you think that Phil Kessel had the intent of start a fight with John Scott (think about it for a second, never even mind his surprised and panicked reaction), I'm not sure what to say. Anyway, my main point there in relation to the topic of fighting is that sort of "fighting" has no place in the game, IMO. If Kessel drops his gloves or punches Scott in the face, different story.

 

I think Kessel figured as a "golden boy" he was free of the obvious implications of what he was doing - that there was no way Scott would drop the gloves with him because he was "talent" and Scott was a "goon". He jawed it up and was face-to-face with a goon who's sole purpose was to be on the ice to clobber someone. He then raises his arm towards Scott and then is "surprised" that the goon does exactly what everyone knew the goon was there to do.

 

Kessel was acting as if he was "talking" with Ville Leino or Christian Erhoff - not John Scott. Was Kessel just asking Scott how much time was left in the period, what his lace count was or whether he saw "The Voice" the night before? I highly doubt it. I haven't seen a transcript, but I have to believe that Kessel's telling Scott something to the effect that the Sabres suck this year and/or he doesn't belong in the league (which I agree with).

 

The exact kind of thing that's likely to provoke a goon to act like, well, a goon.

 

Again, I don't believe that was a "good fight" in the context of this thread. But I also don't see Scott "jumping" a completely unsuspecting Kessel. Kessel was face to face, not minding his own business. Kessel engaged with Scott. He was not "jumped" - he saw it coming. Or should have.

 

I do not believe what Scott did was appropriate - primarily because I don't believe there is need for players like Scott in the league. But it was not at all shocking to me watching it.

[mojo1917]

Something like this happened between a buddy of mine and me when we were playing hoops.

I was getting torched by him and started trying play him a little more physically and began  to run my mouth to get him off his game a little ,  except he was a better athlete plus bigger and stronger than I was and called me out to fight.  Something along the lines of are you sure you want to go there ? and I was sort of in a no-win situation where I had clearly been saying not nice things about his family specifically his relationship to his sister...coupled with setting some hardish picks with elbows aimed at soft spots.  I had to answer somehow, so I said "not really, but **** you " and we scuffled a little, I was decisioned in the wrestling but gave an okay accounting of myself,  he was/is my friend and we didn't want to fight really but the die had been cast so to speak

 

 

Kessel was running his yap thinking the galoot wouldn't follow through because whatever; and then when the galoot did... well **** , now what ?

I know that feeling , except I actually mixed it up took a smallish whooping which, as stated was deserved and we had some beers and laughed about it.  I don't think Kessel and Scott are going for beers anytime soon.

[Podein25]

I think fighting will save hockey from itself.

 

It might go away, but it will come back.

 

It will specifically come back to save it from its inexorable slide into pansiedom.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Podein25

[Commander Clueless]

I think Kessel figured as a "golden boy" he was free of the obvious implications of what he was doing - that there was no way Scott would drop the gloves with him because he was "talent" and Scott was a "goon". He jawed it up and was face-to-face with a goon who's sole purpose was to be on the ice to clobber someone. He then raises his arm towards Scott and then is "surprised" that the goon does exactly what everyone knew the goon was there to do.

 

Kessel was acting as if he was "talking" with Ville Leino or Christian Erhoff - not John Scott. Was Kessel just asking Scott how much time was left in the period, what his lace count was or whether he saw "The Voice" the night before? I highly doubt it. I haven't seen a transcript, but I have to believe that Kessel's telling Scott something to the effect that the Sabres suck this year and/or he doesn't belong in the league (which I agree with).

 

The exact kind of thing that's likely to provoke a goon to act like, well, a goon.

 

Again, I don't believe that was a "good fight" in the context of this thread. But I also don't see Scott "jumping" a completely unsuspecting Kessel. Kessel was face to face, not minding his own business. Kessel engaged with Scott. He was not "jumped" - he saw it coming. Or should have.

 

I do not believe what Scott did was appropriate - primarily because I don't believe there is need for players like Scott in the league. But it was not at all shocking to me watching it.

 

Fair enough.

 

I'm not saying Kessel was being smart there. Not exactly sure what he was doing, but I also don't think he expected to be in a "fight" a second later.

 

My main point is I don't think a fight like that which wasn't consensual has a place in the game, regardless of who brought what questionable parentage into the topic of discussion. You may have expected the reaction from Scott (and that's fair enough), but as you said that doesn't make his action right.

 

Kessel-related banter aside, I do think it brings up an interesting point of fighting. We talk about players policing themselves, but at what point does it go too far?

Edited March 17, 2014 by Commander Clueless

[radoran]

We talk about players policing themselves, but at what point does it go too far?

 

It goes too far, for starters, when the "policing" of a "dirty hit" by a player involves two players who had nothing to do with the original incident squaring off.

 

Player A hits Player B and so Goon Q fights Goon Z.

 

There's no "policing" going on at that point. It's rather pointless. That's a different thing than "bad blood" spilling over between lines. Player D might pump up the aggressive level of play after the Player A/B confrontation, for example.

 

Also, too, goalie fights that aren't involving two willing combatants. I love a good goalie fight, but not when one is a rag doll and the other trains as a boxer (for example ).

 

In a perfect world, I'd rather see Player B and Player A settling their own issues. There were a few great Richards/Crosby bouts, for example. Or, for example, a linemate (see: Simmonds helping out VLC recently).

 

Fighting can show players that their team has their back, but a guy who is a five-minutes-a-gamer isn't going to impress me as much as a guy I'm on the ice with shift in and shift out.

 

That can lead to some rather "soft" fights (like in a classic line brawl where two guys are basically swing dancing). But it's important for the team to have those guys at least show that they are in on the action.

[bunnyman]

When I played in the Juniors, I fought one of three ways- the opposing team's goon vs. me when I cheap-shotted someone, the person I cheap-shotted vs. me, and if I felt like my teammate was blind-sided by a dirty hit or even a clean hit if my teammate's head was down. And if I didn't get the offender of the blind-side, I would get him even if it were in the parking lot...

Note, I don't behave like the last sentence any longer.

[Vanflyer]

so yeah, i love fighting for a purpose, to intimidate or to teach a lesson from a previous affront is my type of game.

 

You mean like this?? 

 

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNxvV2jt_IA

 

Or like this:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-NXbpf0Er0

 

Or like this:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbTAYukpv8I

 

Or like this:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py5a999-rqA

 

Or like this: 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5CU8L0kwwg

 

Seriously, I agree 100% with everything you stated. 

Edited March 18, 2014 by Vanflyer

[Vanflyer]

 It wouldn't be that hard to put a stop to having 2 guys who can't play hockey start a fight at the drop of the puck.

 

Not for nothing, but......http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8451245#&navid=nhl-search

[Polaris922]

I think Sean Couturier will disagree with you.....Sure did not take long to show his colors....

As I said in another thread... That shove happens twenty times a game and the player slides up into the boards then pushes back away. Couturier plants his skates for some reason and takes a header?? Sure looked like a dive on the replays as he sucks his head down then sits on the bench smiling like he got away with something.

I don't have a problem with the boarding call though as in real time an official can't see that as well and the idea is to protect players. I do think we can add Couturier to the diving competition for that one, and he gets a high score from the Russian judge...

[fanaticV3.0]

I completely disagree with your first line. But if you think that Phil Kessel had the intent of start a fight with John Scott (think about it for a second, never even mind his surprised and panicked reaction), I'm not sure what to say. Anyway, my main point there in relation to the topic of fighting is that sort of "fighting" has no place in the game, IMO. If Kessel drops his gloves or punches Scott in the face, different story.

 

Considering he earned a grand total of one suspension for his stickwork in the span of two games I'll wait before I label him a "cheapshot artist", thanks. Not saying his actions were acceptable or clean, but you're jumping on a guy pretty quick there given his previous track record.

 

 

Then what was he doing? Saying hello?

 

Kessel was not jumped. He reached for an opposing team's player and that player responded. Kessel reacted by hitting said player with his stick, which was the 3rd time he had done that in 2 recent games. I don't care what he did before that, that's a trend and I don't feel even a little guilty about calling him cheap or dirty.

[fanaticV3.0]

Not for nothing, but......http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8451245#&navid=nhl-search

 

That's why I find so many people's opinion on fighting interesting.

 

If they changed their mind about fighting fair enough, because the game was a bit if a sideshow back then imo. If they never liked that era, also fair. But considering that team's popularity, I was a little confused about the anti fighting for fighting's sake stance by many.

[OccamsRazor]

I'm all for the Wayne Simmonds versus Mike Richards type of fights. Two guys battling it out, do anything to win kind of guys. Either scrapping because you pissed me off too much, or my team needs a spark. That kind of fighting belongs in the game way more than diving or shootouts or guys who throw their heads when a stick goes near them.

 

 

 But I can't stand when Jay Rosehill and Fraser McLaren skate out to the faceoff circle and plan their WWF extravaganza...like it has any effect on the game whatsoever, other than delaying it.

 

 

I completely agree.

[Vanflyer]

I do think we can add Couturier to the diving competition for that one, and he gets a high score from the Russian judge...

 

Completely disagree. He has never been known for that kind of play. You speak of his skates being planted, so what? He is entitled to make whatever kind of play he wands (dead stop, pivot, pass, etc.). Orpiks responsibility it to not drill him when he sees the numbers like that. 

 

I get mad when players intentionally put themselves in a vulnerable positions, but that was not the case with this play and not the style that coots plays. 

[Polaris922]

Completely disagree. He has never been known for that kind of play. You speak of his skates being planted, so what? He is entitled to make whatever kind of play he wands (dead stop, pivot, pass, etc.). Orpiks responsibility it to not drill him when he sees the numbers like that.

I get mad when players intentionally put themselves in a vulnerable positions, but that was not the case with this play and not the style that coots plays.

Addressed in the other thread. Embellished.

[B21]

As I said in another thread... That shove happens twenty times a game and the player slides up into the boards then pushes back away. Couturier plants his skates for some reason and takes a header?? Sure looked like a dive on the replays as he sucks his head down then sits on the bench smiling like he got away with something.

I don't have a problem with the boarding call though as in real time an official can't see that as well and the idea is to protect players. I do think we can add Couturier to the diving competition for that one, and he gets a high score from the Russian judge...

 

He's reaching to prove a lost point.  Even if one wants to argue it's a boarding call, it's not a dirty hit.  Not all boarding calls are dirty hits.  Giroux got called for boarding in the Flyers/Devils game earlier this month.  I guess he's a dirty player now.

 

And the Canadian judge would have given him the highest score.

[ihabs1993]

I think fighting has and will always have a place in this game, IF DONE CORRECTLY AND WITH CLASS. For instance, the first NHL game I ever went to was a Habs-Isles game on the island. Habs trailed 4-1 with 15 minutes to go in the game when Georges Laraque dropped the gloves with Mitch Fritz. Habs ended up scoring 4 straight to win the game in regulation. If you think that fighting can't change the outcome of a game, I think this is a perfect counterpoint. What Shawn Thornton did to Brooks Orpik is goonery and that needs to leave the game fast. 

In the area of the safety of the players, I think it's obvious that every player knows what they're getting into when they AGREE to drop the mitts. Therefore, we need to eliminate the "player cannot remove his helmet" because I think the classiest thing a player can do is remove his helmet prior to a fight, like Jarome Iginla used to do all the time. With that being said, there needs to be more to stop "fights" like Emery V. Holtby where there is not an AGREEMENT to fight.

 

Fighting is a part of hockey. It's here to stay. I will loose a massive amount of respect for the game if players lose the ability to stand up for each other. 

 

Cheers

Ian

ihabs1993

[bunnyman]

@ihabs1993

Removing the helmet is actually an old minor league hockey rule because of the mandatory visors.

I laugh when I watch "Slapshot!" and they talk about "old time hockey" without the fighting and such- there's no such thing! Old time hockey IS fighting, especially since it is a FAST contact game played with sticks that could kill you. Even on beer league, fighting is NEEDED when Paul Bunyan chops down your centre.

[ruxpin]

Orpik is one of the cleanest heavy hitters in the game. He almost never crosses the line and in the rare instance he might its quite clear there was no intent. The guy isn't a Kronwall type (leaving his feet butt first) and puts himself as at risk in the hit as the target of the hit. He's nothing like Kasparaitis was. Nothing like Carcillo or Downie. Nothing like Pronger either with the cheap shots.

If you're going to name a guy who throws borderline hits as your example, Orpik is not your man.

I don't see one reference to Orpik. The Downie /MacAmmond thing was Ottawa. Orpik didn't play for them, did he?

I'm actually probably one of three Flyer fans who LIKE Orpik (reading the Pens boards elsewhere, I wonder if there's more than three Pens fans who like him too). But clean is REALLY stretching it.

[ruxpin]

Not really. Borderline is still not illegal. Then you went from borderline to equally dangerous. That can be a big difference. You are literally arguing to take borderline but legal hits out of the game. Otherwise, why the need to "police" them? As for costing a guy games? It's hockey for Pete's sake.

I was not aware that Downie was going after McAmmond because Downie was himself the "victim" (cough cough) of an illegal cross check but you are making my case as to why players cannot be trusted to police themselves with that one. Downie gets cross checked. Call gets missed. So he knocks out McAmmond, who had nothing to do with it, with a vicious and blatantly illegal flying hit to the head. That sure seems fair. He sure showed that official who missed the call! You have to see the twisted logic there. Officials miss calls all the time. Yet you want mental midgets like Steve Downie policing the game?

I don't want mental midgets like Downie PLAYING the game.

[ruxpin]

I guess I'm with commander. I enjoy fights when they are a natural response to the emotion or situation of the game. Often the staged fights do interrupt the flow of the game. Sometimes interrupting the flow is specifically the point (like one team is down 3-0 early do they send out some clown to start a fight to rally the troops).

All that said, I thoroughly enjoy a good line brawl and one of my all time favorite games was the Ottawa /Philly brawl in... Was it 2004?

That game ended up being nothing about hockey, but it was really entertaining just for spectacle sake.

[flyercanuck]

I don't see one reference to Orpik. The Downie /MacAmmond thing was Ottawa. Orpik didn't play for them, did he?

I'm actually probably one of three Flyer fans who LIKE Orpik (reading the Pens boards elsewhere, I wonder if there's more than three Pens fans who like him too). But clean is REALLY stretching it.

 

I  agree. Polaris is one of the few Pens fans I ever see stick up for the guy. "Bum" is the term used on HF boards. I personally don't mind him. If he wasn't put in that situation (Pens are like Philly, no true #1 and yes i'm counting Letang) he would look better. Just like Coburn.