Flyers have traded for Andy MacDonald

[brelic]

What works in MacD's favour is that it is not a great crop of UFA defensemen. Top of the list is Niskanen. MacD should not make more money than him. Of course, the tricky part is if Homer signs him before Niskanen signs. There's also the 'contender discount' aspect, which I don't know how much or even if it plays a part. If I were playing for the Pens, I would take a bit less to stay there than I would from another team because they figure to be competitive for a number of years to come. The Flyers have lost that lustre.

After Niskanen, however, I would say MacD tops the list. Zidlicky and Boyle are too old now to be comparables.

Considering Hjalmarsson signed long-term for $4.1M per, I'm hoping he sets the benchmark. MacD is not as good as Hjalmarsson IMO, and shouldn't be paid more. But we know how these things work.

A lot hinges on what role the Flyers see him playing, and what role MacD *wants* to be playing. If he *wants* north of $5M, that tells me he thinks he's a top pairing defenseman. The Flyers might accept that view in the absence of another option, especially if Timonen retires.

The X factor is their pursuit for a bona fide #1. If they use up guys like B Schenn and Laughton to land a true top pairing guy, MacD becomes less important - and depending on his demands - expendable. Don't forget - he's still a largely unproven defenseman coming off an entry-level contract. Why would we over commit? Worst case scenario is that he walks for nothing. But Homer would probably try to trade his rights before that happened - maybe even for a 2nd rounder because he will be a hot commodity at the draft and the days leading up to July 1.

[JackStraw]

The X factor is their pursuit for a bona fide #1. If they use up guys like B Schenn and Laughton to land a true top pairing guy, MacD becomes less important - and depending on his demands - expendable.

 

I would kind of disagree with that. The most expendable guy currently is Grossman. If (and it's a big if) the Flyers were to land a true #1 D then that allows everyone else to slide down closer to where they belong. Something like:

 

Unknown #1 guy + Coburn

AMac + Schenn/Streit

Schenn/Streit + Gus/?

 

I think so far, MacDonald looks like a pretty solid second pairing guy. I don't know that anyone else on the roster clearly fits that description. This is assuming of course that Timonen retires. If Timon retires AND the Flyers let AMac walk then there are two fairly difficult spots to fill on D and I doubt you could adequately fill either one for less than what it would cost to re-sign MacDonald.

Edited March 13, 2014 by JackStraw

[OccamsRazor]

Unknown #1 guy + Coburn
AMac + Schenn/Streit
Schenn/Streit + Gus/?

 

Yes i agree and this is the model in mind.

 

But like i said in another post Amac becomes the #2 by default of Kimmo does retire.

 

But he isn't a #2 his ceiling for the Flyers should be no more than #3.

 

And should be paid accordingly....or let walk.

 

Depends on what Homer has up his sleeve....that will change everything.

[brelic]

I would kind of disagree with that. The most expendable guy currently is Grossman.

I guess maybe I wasn't clear. MacD is expendable because he's a UFA. Grossmann is less expendable because he's under contract for 2 more years and has an NTC. He would be a hard guy to move, IMO.

 

Unknown #1 guy + Coburn

AMac + Schenn/Streit

Schenn/Streit + Gus/?

 

I think so far, MacDonald looks like a pretty solid second pairing guy. I don't know that anyone else on the roster clearly fits that description. This is assuming of course that Timonen retires. If Timon retires AND the Flyers let AMac walk then there are two fairly difficult spots to fill on D and I doubt you could adequately fill either one for less than what it would cost to re-sign MacDonald.

In the two whole games I've watched MacD, he's looked fine to me. Very calm. But as @radoran has already cautioned, that's not enough of a sample size to make a judgment call either way.

So let's say we want to keep him. And let's say he takes $4.25M for 3-4 years. Then we have no problem. To me, that's an overpayment based on league comparables (notably Hjalmarsson). But a small (and smart) overpayment that's a function of a thin UFA market.

But let's say he wants $5M for 4 years. I simply wouldn't do that because he's not that kind of player. We saw that in Bryz and Briere. You can pay someone as much as you want - just don't expect it to make them better than they really are. So, a $5M MacD will probably fall under the same level of criticism being leveled at Vinny right now, and Bryz, Briere and Streit in the past. That criticism is that they just aren't playing at the level their salary would indicate.

So to sum up, even in a thin market, I let MacD walk if he wants $5m per season or more. He's not a premium guy. It's because of boneheaded contracts to fringe / middling players that the 'market' gets all out of whack, and why we keep having work stoppages.

In the event that they don't resign him, I would look at a UFA guy for the short term (1-2 years) or make a trade for a true 2nd pairing defenseman. And I would take a good look at the young guys, see if they can fill in 2nd/3rd pairing duties. Guys like Ghost, Morin, Hagg, Lauridsen, Alt. You'd think at least one of those guys can make the squad next year. I'd also look at trading Gus for some sort of parallel asset. It's becoming clearer and clearer that he's not in the team's plans.

[JackStraw]

But as @radoran has already cautioned, that's not enough of a sample size to make a judgment call either way

 

I basically agree. Although I assume the Flyers have an opinion of him based on more than just the two games he's played with the team.

 

But let's say he wants $5M for 4 years. I simply wouldn't do that because he's not that kind of player. We saw that in Bryz and Briere. You can pay someone as much as you want - just don't expect it to make them better than they really are. So, a $5M MacD will probably fall under the same level of criticism being leveled at Vinny right now, and Bryz, Briere and Streit in the past. That criticism is that they just aren't playing at the level their salary would indicate.

 

Well, personally I don't really care what individual players make. If Homer (or Hextall) can put together a blue line worthy of a contender without sacrificing in other areas and retaining cap flexibility (not that the Flyers ever have that to begin with) then he/they can pay MacDonald $20 million for all I care. I seriously doubt that the Flyers see MacDonald as a top pairing guy and I doubt they will be willing to pay him like one. But what that actually means in terms of salary is something only they know.

 

Guys like Ghost, Morin, Hagg, Lauridsen, Alt. You'd think at least one of those guys can make the squad next year

 

Not as second pairing guys. Lauridsen and Alt, maybe depth defensemen at best. Morin will benefit more from staying in juniors, Hagg maybe in the AHL. No reason to rush these guys into a situation they're not ready for.

[radoran]

I basically agree. Although I assume the Flyers have an opinion of him based on more than just the two games he's played with the team.

Well, personally I don't really care what individual players make. If Homer (or Hextall) can put together a blue line worthy of a contender without sacrificing in other areas and retaining cap flexibility (not that the Flyers ever have that to begin with) then he/they can pay MacDonald $20 million for all I care. I seriously doubt that the Flyers see MacDonald as a top pairing guy and I doubt they will be willing to pay him like one. But what that actually means in terms of salary is something only they know.

Not as second pairing guys. Lauridsen and Alt, maybe depth defensemen at best. Morin will benefit more from staying in juniors, Hagg maybe in the AHL. No reason to rush these guys into a situation they're not ready for.

I agree, but let's not be in a rush to fill a "need" for next season with a four-to-five year contract. Not to say that you are rushing in that area.

As for the Flyers' "evaluation" process, I would hope that they have an opinion based on more than just the three games in Philadelphia - and I expect they do - but his entire previous record is on a fairly terrible Islanders team.

Let's see how he does on a team pushing for the playoffs against the top competition in the Conference over the next 17 games.

And we can also, if you'd like, discuss the "evaluation" process that led to the highly-paid defensive corps they have now that I think we all agree simply isn't as good as it was initially advertised by the "evaluation" the Flyers did prior to trading/signing them. Two thirds of that defense is still signed for at least two more years after this one - using much of the same phillyosophy that "we traded something for them so we have to sign them" or "we have a need next season that must be filled with a long term contract."

Unless we're relying automatically on the "they'll get it right this time" phillyosophy. That said, I'm fully aware and accept the possibility that it could be that the blind squirrel found a nut!

To be clear, I've only advocated for a longer current evaluation that still leaves the team in control of his contract until July 1 and afford the ability to gauge his short-term effectiveness against long-term goals.

[brelic]

Well, personally I don't really care what individual players make. If Homer (or Hextall) can put together a blue line worthy of a contender without sacrificing in other areas and retaining cap flexibility (not that the Flyers ever have that to begin with) then he/they can pay MacDonald $20 million for all I care. I seriously doubt that the Flyers see MacDonald as a top pairing guy and I doubt they will be willing to pay him like one. But what that actually means in terms of salary is something only they know.

 

Homer has failed to put together a worthy blueline since he's been the GM. The only exception was the acquisition of Pronger, but that came at the sacrifice in other areas you mention. 

 

Not as second pairing guys. Lauridsen and Alt, maybe depth defensemen at best. Morin will benefit more from staying in juniors, Hagg maybe in the AHL. No reason to rush these guys into a situation they're not ready for.

 

How do you know they can't play at the level of 2nd pairing? I mean, I'm sure there would be some growing pains... maybe half a season or more. The point is we never actually give our guys a shot. I agree with Morin - he's probably the least ready of all of them, and he has the highest ceiling, so I would definitely give him more time if he's borderline. But sounds like any of the other guys would have a real shot at playing on an NHL roster. As recently as a few weeks ago, there was a big write up on Ghost and how that writer could see him on the big club next year and playing the PP. Is it ideal? Probably not. But it's an option to consider if AMac demands too much money.

 

And here's another thing to consider - Homer *always* puts his eggs in one basket (Weber, Suter, Parise, Bryz, Streit, now A Mac), and it's always someone else's basket. If we're going to do that anyway, why not put them in our own basket?

[JackStraw]

And we can also, if you'd like, discuss the "evaluation" process that led to the highly-paid defensive corps they have now

 

Actually, I think I'd rather not... it makes my head hurt.

 

Let's see how he does on a team pushing for the playoffs against the top competition in the Conference over the next 17 games

 

I'm down with that.

[JackStraw]

Homer has failed to put together a worthy blueline since he's been the GM. The only exception was the acquisition of Pronger, but that came at the sacrifice in other areas you mention

 

Well, one has to have hope doesn't one? My hope is that by drafting Morin and Hagg, and what has been reported that he said to the season ticket holders (I forget whether it was poulin or adams who posted it) that the organization has seen the error of their ways and is trying to do better. Only time will tell, but I would rather see more of the MacDonald type defender and less of the Grossman type defender going forward.

 

 

 

How do you know they can't play at the level of 2nd pairing?

 

I don't know for sure obviously

And here's another thing to consider - Homer *always* puts his eggs in one basket (Weber, Suter, Parise, Bryz, Streit, now A Mac), and it's always someone else's basket. If we're going to do that anyway, why not put them in our own basket?

, but Lauridsen has looked like a potential third pairing guy to me. And I don't think I've ever even seen Alt. Honestly, I don't have much confidence that anyone currently on the Phantoms is going to be a regular NHL'er. I'd be happy to be wrong, but none of them have looked like all that much. Lauridsen has been the best imo.

 

 

 

And here's another thing to consider - Homer *always* puts his eggs in one basket (Weber, Suter, Parise, Bryz, Streit, now A Mac), and it's always someone else's basket. If we're going to do that anyway, why not put them in our own basket?

 

I have no problem with that, if I understand correctly. I've been waiting to see the Flyers develop a home grown defenseman since Jimmy Watson. Hopefully Morin and Hagg will be those guys. I'm somewhat skeptical of Ghost, but my only experience watching him was in the WJC. He looked good offensively but whether he can play defense in the NHL is still an open question imo. I would also like to see Gus get more playing time (preferably at Grossman's expense).

Edited March 13, 2014 by JackStraw

[mojo1917]

I am hoping that Alt turns out to be a late bloomer type guy,  he has the physical ability to be an upgrade to Grossmann because he is a better athlete, Alt is a fella that played quarterback in high school for a state championship team, you don't do that if you're just a big lug who learned to skate. 

 

I think he has some upside that if nurtured may propel him into a 2nd pairing role , if he has the right partner, or a solid dependable player who knows how to win, and as a third pairing guy won't be rattled by a strong forecheck, who can bring some leadership to the recently turned over defense corps... (i'm projecting here) 

 

I hope i'm right.

[jammer2]

@mojo1917  I too am hoping for big things out of Alt. His window will not be open forever....I figure this coming training camp will be his "real" moment to shine. He's gotten his AHL time, now he has to make the big jump. If he does not make it this coming year, he will risk competing with Hagg and Morin the following year, and the org has more invested in those guys. The odds are against him though, if only because of the Flyers maddening penchant for filling the roster with NHL bodies before camp even opens, leaving 0 chance for up and comers to break in.

[brelic]

@mojo1917  The odds are against him though, if only because of the Flyers maddening penchant for filling the roster with NHL bodies before camp even opens, leaving 0 chance for up and comers to break in.

Bang on jammer. We just keep signing other teams' castaways and there are never any open roster spots by the time camp opens. Gill was a completely useless signing

[radoran]

@mojo1917  I too am hoping for big things out of Alt. His window will not be open forever....I figure this coming training camp will be his "real" moment to shine. He's gotten his AHL time, now he has to make the big jump. If he does not make it this coming year, he will risk competing with Hagg and Morin the following year, and the org has more invested in those guys. The odds are against him though, if only because of the Flyers maddening penchant for filling the roster with NHL bodies before camp even opens, leaving 0 chance for up and comers to break in.

 

Just for the sake of comparison...

 

Alt will be 23 in October. He'll have played his first full AHL season and be likely starting his second. In other words, he's in exactly the same place that Andrew MacDonald was before he entered the league.

 

You say Alt's window won't be open forever, but have said in the MacDonald thread that you believe that he's just about to break out as a star.

 

MacDonald is five years older than Alt and in his fourth full season in the league. In other words, Alt could do exactly what MacDonald did at his age (say 21 NHL and 60 AHL games) and be exactly where MacDonald was.

 

Alt is a second round pick - top 60 overall. MacDonald was taken in the 6th, not even in the top 150 of his class.

 

Why is Alt's window with a limited range at 23, but MacDonald just might be emerging five years later?

 

Just for the record, Alt also wasn't a Flyer pick. He came over from Carolina with Boucher for Luke Pither (of all people).

 

Bang on jammer. We just keep signing other teams' castaways and there are never any open roster spots by the time camp opens.

 

It's because "if you make the playoffs and anything can happen" so you need to make sure you have veteran defencemen that no one else wanted once you get there so you don't have to trade for them.

 

Or, something.

 

Seriously, they don't want to risk the growing pains at the NHL level. They never have. And young defencemen will have growing pains. And it may not work out. 

 

It's why they would trade for a MacDonald instead of seeing if they have one five years from now - or five years ago, for that matter. And it may not work out.

 

It is the phillyosophy of the team and there is, quite frankly, nothing that's going to change it.

 

One could make an argument that - in terms of defensemen - their direction has some merit. Except that it hasn't actually worked.

 

Gill was a completely useless signing

 

So, for that matter, was Gervais... And the wheel keeps turning.

[jammer2]

You say Alt's window won't be open forever, but have said in the MacDonald thread that you believe that he's just about to break out as a star.



MacDonald is five years older than Alt and in his fourth full season in the league. In other words, Alt could do exactly what MacDonald did at his age (say 21 NHL and 60 AHL games) and be exactly where MacDonald was.

 

 MacDaddy and Alt have one big difference, the Isles have at least historically, given youngsters roster spots in hopes of them maturing. The Flyers don't share the same philosophy, so Alt's window opening and closing are far different from Andrew's. If Alt does not make the Flyers next fall, the chance he will be AHL fodder increase exponentially.

[jammer2]

Bang on jammer. We just keep signing other teams' castaways and there are never any open roster spots by the time camp opens. Gill was a completely useless signing

 

 There should be at least 2 roster spots up for grabs in training camp, one for a d-man, one for a forward. You should be constantly breaking in fresh blood, it helps the cap and gives a roster spot to somebody who may just be ready. Young players grow and evolve at different speeds, but there is usually kids that just break out at the end of the season and that growth continues during the summer....making them NHL worthy. Enough of this Gill type crap....go into camp with the full understanding that somebody can and will break though. That's how you manage a cap, making room for cheap young players who can become big contributors.

 

 If no kids show signs of being worthy....THEN you go out and sign your Hal Gill stiff, but don't block their way to start out. The Flyers do this ass-backwards!

[JackStraw]

Q: How many defensemen currently on the Bruins roster (including injured) were drafted by the Bruins?

A: One (Dougie Hamilton)

Everyone is acting like the Flyers are the only team that goes outside their own system to get players. EVERY team does it. I believe Chicago drafted only 3 of their current defensemen. Hal Gil is not keeping anyone in the AHL. Do you really want Alt or Lauridsen sitting in the press box every night? Because that's Gil's job. He's insurance. A veteran who could play if necessary because of injuries

As for the Flyers not giving their own young guys opportunities, Gus has been given several opportunities and still hasn't grabbed a steady job. They gave him a shot, he struggled, they sent him to the AHL. They gave him another shot, he struggled again, they sent him down again. On the third chance, he's sticking but still not playing much. And this is a guy who was one of Sweden's best d-men in last year's World Championships. You really think Alt or Lauridsen would do better right now? Let them develop in the A. They'll get their chances to impress in training camp. Sbisa made the most of that chance and made the team.

[mojo1917]

Q: How many defensemen currently on the Bruins roster (including injured) were drafted by the Bruins?

A: One (Dougie Hamilton)

Everyone is acting like the Flyers are the only team that goes outside their own system to get players. EVERY team does it. I believe Chicago drafted only 3 of their current defensemen. Hal Gil is not keeping anyone in the AHL. Do you really want Alt or Lauridsen sitting in the press box every night? Because that's Gil's job. He's insurance. A veteran who could play if necessary because of injuries

As for the Flyers not giving their own young guys opportunities, Gus has been given several opportunities and still hasn't grabbed a steady job. They gave him a shot, he struggled, they sent him to the AHL. They gave him another shot, he struggled again, they sent him down again. On the third chance, he's sticking but still not playing much. And this is a guy who was one of Sweden's best d-men in last year's World Championships. You really think Alt or Lauridsen would do better right now? Let them develop in the A. They'll get their chances to impress in training camp. Sbisa made the most of that chance and made the team.

Q: How many defensemen currently on the Bruins roster (including injured) were drafted by the Bruins?

A: One (Dougie Hamilton)

Everyone is acting like the Flyers are the only team that goes outside their own system to get players. EVERY team does it. I believe Chicago drafted only 3 of their current defensemen. Hal Gil is not keeping anyone in the AHL. Do you really want Alt or Lauridsen sitting in the press box every night? Because that's Gil's job. He's insurance. A veteran who could play if necessary because of injuries

As for the Flyers not giving their own young guys opportunities, Gus has been given several opportunities and still hasn't grabbed a steady job. They gave him a shot, he struggled, they sent him to the AHL. They gave him another shot, he struggled again, they sent him down again. On the third chance, he's sticking but still not playing much. And this is a guy who was one of Sweden's best d-men in last year's World Championships. You really think Alt or Lauridsen would do better right now? Let them develop in the A. They'll get their chances to impress in training camp. Sbisa made the most of that chance and made the team.

Krug was a free agent signing, correct ?

He wasn't a trade acquisition ?

[doom88]

Q: How many defensemen currently on the Bruins roster (including injured) were drafted by the Bruins?

A: One (Dougie Hamilton)

Everyone is acting like the Flyers are the only team that goes outside their own system to get players. EVERY team does it. I believe Chicago drafted only 3 of their current defensemen. Hal Gil is not keeping anyone in the AHL. Do you really want Alt or Lauridsen sitting in the press box every night? Because that's Gil's job. He's insurance. A veteran who could play if necessary because of injuries

As for the Flyers not giving their own young guys opportunities, Gus has been given several opportunities and still hasn't grabbed a steady job. They gave him a shot, he struggled, they sent him to the AHL. They gave him another shot, he struggled again, they sent him down again. On the third chance, he's sticking but still not playing much. And this is a guy who was one of Sweden's best d-men in last year's World Championships. You really think Alt or Lauridsen would do better right now? Let them develop in the A. They'll get their chances to impress in training camp. Sbisa made the most of that chance and made the team.

Thank you Jack.

[JackStraw]

Krug was a free agent signing, correct ?

He wasn't a trade acquisition ?

At least one was a free agent signing, maybe a couple. I forget who though.

[flyercanuck]

Q: How many defensemen currently on the Bruins roster (including injured) were drafted by the Bruins?

A: One (Dougie Hamilton)

Everyone is acting like the Flyers are the only team that goes outside their own system to get players. EVERY team does it. I believe Chicago drafted only 3 of their current defensemen. Hal Gil is not keeping anyone in the AHL. Do you really want Alt or Lauridsen sitting in the press box every night? Because that's Gil's job. He's insurance. A veteran who could play if necessary because of injuries

As for the Flyers not giving their own young guys opportunities, Gus has been given several opportunities and still hasn't grabbed a steady job. They gave him a shot, he struggled, they sent him to the AHL. They gave him another shot, he struggled again, they sent him down again. On the third chance, he's sticking but still not playing much. And this is a guy who was one of Sweden's best d-men in last year's World Championships. You really think Alt or Lauridsen would do better right now? Let them develop in the A. They'll get their chances to impress in training camp. Sbisa made the most of that chance and made the team.

 

 Boston may have only drafted Hamilton...but Krug was a FA signing. So they may not have drafted him, but they developed him. Same with Miller Chara's been there so long it's hard to remember him as a Sen. Boychuk was dealt to Boston for (meh) Matt Hendricks and has been there since he was 24. Both Bartkowski and Seidenberg came in a trade for 2 bums and a 2nd four years ago. Can you imagine Holmgren getting TWO NHL defencemen for ONE 2nd? Me neither. McQuaids played his entire NHL career with Boston...he cost them a 5th. Mez cost them a 3rd or maybe a 2nd. . Boston spends about $19 million caphit on D

 

Holmgrens has dealt away JVR, Joffrey Lupul, Luca Sbisa, Zhitnik, 3-1sts a 2nd and 3-3rds and spends almost $30 million on our D. I'm not even counting all the other 1sts 2nds 3rds etc he's thrown away on the Emingers, Kubinas Modrys etc that aren't here anymore. Who's got the better D?

 

 Chicago ONLY has 3 drafted defencemen on their roster? Isn't that how many the Flyers have drafted and developed in their history?  

[JackStraw]

Boston may have only drafted Hamilton...but Krug was a FA signing. So they may not have drafted him, but they developed him. Same with Miller Chara's been there so long it's hard to remember him as a Sen. Boychuk was dealt to Boston for (meh) Matt Hendricks and has been there since he was 24. Both Bartkowski and Seidenberg came in a trade for 2 bums and a 2nd four years ago. Can you imagine Holmgren getting TWO NHL defencemen for ONE 2nd? Me neither. McQuaids played his entire NHL career with Boston...he cost them a 5th. Mez cost them a 3rd or maybe a 2nd. . Boston spends about $19 million caphit on D

 

Boston would have traded for MacDonald if the Flyers hadn't grabbed him. I'm sure of that. They weren't willing to give up a 1st, and NYI never gave them a chance to beat the Flyers offer. I'm virtually certain they would have. So in this case we get the better (and 1 year younger) player and Boston gets our leftovers. Many of the other moves you mention aren't very different from things the Flyers have done. They essentially got Timonen (and Hartnell) for the player who used to be Peter Forsberg. They got Coburn for the remains of Alexi Zhitnik. They acquired young defensemen like Parent, Carle, and (yes) Eminger. Only Carle worked out. I'm not going to argue that Homer has done a good job building the D-corps. Up to this point it's his biggest failure imo. But you have to start somewhere if you're going to fix things, and I do think that last year's draft and acquiring MacDonald (if what we've seen so far is legit) are steps in the right direction.

 

Chicago ONLY has 3 drafted defencemen on their roster? Isn't that how many the Flyers have drafted and developed in their history?

 

I don't know, who are the other two besides Watson? 

[brelic]

I don't know, who are the other two besides Watson? 

Chris Therien? Randy Jones?

Everyone is acting like the Flyers are the only team that goes outside their own system to get players. EVERY team does it. I believe Chicago drafted only 3 of their current defensemen. Hal Gil is not keeping anyone in the AHL. Do you really want Alt or Lauridsen sitting in the press box every night? Because that's Gil's job. He's insurance. A veteran who could play if necessary because of injuries

It sounds like you are saying that the Flyers are not the exception when it comes to drafting and developing defensemen. I was perhaps too hasty in my judgment of the Flyers track record in that I did not actually look at all the other teams. Chicago is one example, and now I'm curious as to how the other teams have fared.

So, let's talk about Chicago for a moment. Of the 3 defensemen drafted and developed in-house, 2 of them are legitimate #1s, with Keith being a clear-cut #1. Seabrook is a #1A, I guess. On most teams, he would probably challenge for the top job. He was a 1st round draft pick, so it's not unexpected that he developed so well. We can only hope the same will be true of Morin - and that's the key. We have to keep stocking the cupboard with highly drafted defensemen in order to find a Seabrook or a Keith. In Keith's case, he was a 2nd round pick, so a much less obvious prospect. It's still important to draft some of those along the way too, if we want a chance for that to happen. In the last draft, we picked up Hagg in the 2nd. Once again, another hint that the organization will no longer ignore defensemen in the draft.

In Boston's case, they benefited from a huge Senators miscalculation. Chara tested the market, and the Sens chose to stick with Philips (1st overall pick) and Redden. In hindsight, it was a mistake.

What I see in both cases - and we could add Detroit's Lidstrom and the Kings' Doughty - is that the real importance is to draft/find and develop a true top pairing guy. At that point, it's less important how or with whom you fill your 2nd and 3rd pairings. If your top pair is all-star calibre, then it is a lot easier for the rest to follow.

Would you agree with that assessment?

Of course there are many ways to win a Cup, and Pittsburgh has shown that you can do it without a top pairing defenseman. Some might consider Gonchar as top pairing, and I think he was the TOI leader in that playoff run, but most would not put him in the same category as Lidstrom, Pronger, Keith, Doughty, Chara.

[flyercanuck]

Boston would have traded for MacDonald if the Flyers hadn't grabbed him. I'm sure of that. They weren't willing to give up a 1st, and NYI never gave them a chance to beat the Flyers offer. I'm virtually certain they would have. So in this case we get the better (and 1 year younger) player and Boston gets our leftovers. Many of the other moves you mention aren't very different from things the Flyers have done. They essentially got Timonen (and Hartnell) for the player who used to be Peter Forsberg. They got Coburn for the remains of Alexi Zhitnik. They acquired young defensemen like Parent, Carle, and (yes) Eminger. Only Carle worked out. I'm not going to argue that Homer has done a good job building the D-corps. Up to this point it's his biggest failure imo. But you have to start somewhere if you're going to fix things, and I do think that last year's draft and acquiring MacDonald (if what we've seen so far is legit) are steps in the right direction.

 

 

 

 

I don't know, who are the other two besides Watson? 

 

 

 I'm not knocking the MacDonald trade...depending on what Homer pays him. The Timonen/Hartnell trade and Coburn deals were great. I thought Holmgren actually had a plan back then. Then he went all Briere/Pronger/Kubina/Bryz/Modry/Prospal/Streit/VLC on us.

 

 Behn Wilson? And that other guy who played 2 NHL games.

[mojo1917]

Of course there are many ways to win a Cup, and Pittsburgh has shown that you can do it without a top pairing defenseman. Some might consider Gonchar as top pairing, and I think he was the TOI leader in that playoff run, but most would not put him in the same category as Lidstrom, Pronger, Keith, Doughty, Chara.

 

most definitely, but they did have nice depth on their blue line kind of like the the way the Rangers are built.

 

Gonchar, Scuderi, Orpik, Gil, Eaton, Letang... that's some pretty good players there; at the time Letang was the up and comer, i thought he and orpik were the top pairing, at least they were on the ice when it was time to win games, this is now 5 years ago and Gil was still effective, Scuderi was in his prime, same with Orpik.  Any way that group reminded me of the Rangers Defense which is one of my favorites where there was not a really weak link anywhere in the 3 pairs.

 

no arguments about not having a great Defense on the Flyers it is not for a lack of trying.  quality guys 1-6 is tough to come by, you need some good home grown guys , an FA signing or two and some luck .   Chicago is the exception and not the rule.

[JackStraw]

What I see in both cases - and we could add Detroit's Lidstrom and the Kings' Doughty - is that the real importance is to draft/find and develop a true top pairing guy. At that point, it's less important how or with whom you fill your 2nd and 3rd pairings. If your top pair is all-star calibre, then it is a lot easier for the rest to follow.

Would you agree with that assessment?

 

I would, as far as it goes. But I also agree with what you say next...

 

Of course there are many ways to win a Cup, and Pittsburgh has shown that you can do it without a top pairing defenseman. Some might consider Gonchar as top pairing, and I think he was the TOI leader in that playoff run, but most would not put him in the same category as Lidstrom, Pronger, Keith, Doughty, Chara.

 

I don't think there's any way that the Pens win the Cup without Gonchar although I didn't consider him a true #1 at that point. I don't think you absolutely need to have a Norris finalist type defenseman to win a Cup, at least I hope you don't because the odds are always against getting one. And there are some great young ones (OEL, Subban, Karlsson) whose teams look to be far from winning the Cup.

 

Basically my feeling is that there is not really one defenseman currently on the Flyers that I would say must be on the team in say, three years. There's no Jones, or Trouba, or Maata. We hope that Morin and Hagg will be those kind of players- key pieces to a Cup contender, but they're not even on the payroll yet. The defense is going to need to be remade if the Flyers are to seriously contend imo, so if it means developing players in the system, or bringing in free agents or trades... whatever it takes. There's no point in Homer (or Hextall) sitting on his hands waiting for Alt/Ghost/Gus/Lauridsen/Morin/Hagg/Manning/etc to become good NHL players. The more competition for roster spots the better.