ruxpin Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 I'm gonna go ahead and wait more than two games to make a judgement about a player.I'm really quite stunned to see so many people advocating for an immediate re-signing of a player after two games.Could it be that people who have seen two hundred ninety-five games over four and a half seasons have more of a perspective? Could be.Could it be that he was misplayed on the island? Could be.I hope the trade pans out and I hope that he's an effective player for the Flyers.I'm just not confident making that decision after two games.YMMV.Fair point. In my case, he was actually a player I wanted BEFORE the trade and was ecstatic when I saw it come up on my Facebook wall (yeah, I know: Facebook). I just really disagree with some islanders fans who want to claim a guy plays over 25 minutes a game because of some favoritism by the coach. The coach still has to try to keep his job. I don't think Berube or Lavy or whomever would get away with playing the Bad Schenn for over 25 minutes for ANY reason for very long. You'll have fans of any team (and it's probably more prevalent on a team that sucks so bad and especially when it teased the fan base the year before) who will roast any player. There were folks here who roasted Pronger before he got hurt. There's one guy who was apparently kicked out of Russia who daily rails on Giroux. So my opinion isn't on the last two games solely. It doesn't make it the right opinion. I've been wrong before (it was a Wednesday. I think it was late fall because it was chilly but not cold. And it was raining). Just saying I've liked the guy for awhile and thought he'd look awfully good in Orange & Black. I reserve the right to change my mind if he's offered 7 years $7M per with an NMC. Because IMO, he's not a top pair guy. He's just a very steady 2nd pair guy who can help keep the minutes for the top pair guys under control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 I reserve the right to change my mind if he's offered 7 years $7M per with an NMC. Because IMO, he's not a top pair guy. He's just a very steady 2nd pair guy who can help keep the minutes for the top pair guys under control. As I said earlier in the thread, he could be a great complimentary piece for the Flyers - but he is not a foundation. But there are a lot of folks on this thread who weren't watching Islanders games frequently who are sounding - to me - a little like Homer after seeing Shelley score two goals in a game against the Flyers. Again - I'm just reserving judgement and hoping he continues to play well. No need to make any big decisions about him until June. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 @radoran Like I said, I'm all for signing him if he continues to play the way he has. But I sure as heck aren't signing him after two games...unless he's happy with what he was making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 As I said earlier in the thread, he could be a great complimentary piece for the Flyers - but he is not a foundation. But there are a lot of folks on this thread who weren't watching Islanders games frequently who are sounding - to me - a little like Homer after seeing Shelley score two goals in a game against the Flyers. Again - I'm just reserving judgement and hoping he continues to play well. No need to make any big decisions about him until June.I based my excitement on his play vs the Pens in the playoffs... This was last year, The Pens were a hard forechecking team and MacDonald was on the ice all the time it seemed and he was damn good against them... this was also where I got a load of Striet for the first time (to really watch him) and he wasn't as bad as i was expecting; but MacDonald stood out in a good way until he got hurt. It was no surprise that the Pens easily closed the Isles out after he was injured. Again small sample size admittedly , but he played big when it mattered most, so that went a long way towards forming my opinion of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 He's viewed as a 3rd pairing defenseman on a regular team (i.e. not the Islanders). Are we a 'regular' team? I don't know. We spend an awful lot on defense and it is mediocre at best. So, where he slots on the team needs to be a contract consideration - for both sides. But when @OccamsRazor says he'll be our #2 after Kimmo retires, that scares me. There's some truth to that (Coburn would be #1, then probably Streit or MacD), and we would be asking him to play a role similar to the one he played on the Island - which apparently was asking too much of him. It wouldn't be the first time the Flyers traded for a guy and asked him to play a role for which he was ill-suited. We just shouldn't be surprised if it all goes sideways because of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 @brelic I think he's a step in the right direction. He is not the savior #1 guy and I don't think the folks who are happy to have him around think that... he does help raise the level of play for the group because he's a good player . In the right role he can be very effective, I like that he handles the puck like it isn't a live grenade, is pretty savvy with his play along the boards and has made (in his short time with the team) a lot of good, simple plays that work to make the breakouts look a lot better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Seriously, now, imagine that, say, the Leafs had traded/signed the Islanders' top defensemen - what are we saying about that decision then? Yes, it is possible that good players are on bad teams, but I have a feeling that if any team but ours had acquired the Islanders' top defensemen as an "upgrade" that there would be more than a little smirking and snarking about it. To be clear(er) - I'm not questioning his play with the team or his ability. I'm questioning whether we know enough to make a long-term, $4+ million commitment at this point. He turned down $16M/4Y with the Islanders and even if he takes that level from the Flyers, we're still looking at that sort of a commitment to the player. I see him as a complimentary piece to the puzzle, but not one that immediately shows where other pieces fit (to extend the jigsaw analogy). Potentially a good second-pairing defenseman but @brelic is onto something with the reservations about him being top pair and relied upon. I think - given his history and what we've heard about it (sour grapes or not) from Isles fans - weaknesses could wind up being exposed (this is true of any player asked to "do too much"). I also don't see him as essential moving forward. That could certainly change as we see more of him in orange and black. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 @radoran I intend on recording the back to backers against the Pens and watching MacDaddy do his stuff. Those games will be a nice gauge, he will be dealing with a whole lot of outside speed. I want to see how many times he skates the puck out of trouble instead of the quick one time break out pass. Another thing I want to see is does he have a little control the flow of the game from back there. From what I have seen, he can control the pace of the game, so I want to see to what extent he can accomplish this. Gus and Kimo are really the only other Flyers who can skate the puck out of trouble, so it's a welcome skill set to add to the team. I don't think you give up a few respectable draft picks to let the guy walk. I guess this last 18 games or so will set his price. I'd love to see him signed for under 5 mill, but slightly over that I'd begrudgingly agree to it. I love the fact he will get better with the Flyers, he will probably peak in 2-3 years, so it should be fun to watch him evolve and maybe even become a 40-50 point d-man. He appears to be pretty smart also. This is a great start at revamping the defense to a more mobile and smart until. I applaud this move!! Forget which Leaf it was right now, but he obviously has some physicality to his game, he FLATTENED that Leaf!!! This is just what we are looking for, physical, smart, respectable speed and the ability to run the top pp. This is a real nice package, I hope Homer locks him up, but want to get a better look at him before making any final call from my end. I would be fine with a 5 year 25 mill contract...he *appears* to be worth every penny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Missed the game - any opinions on how MacDonald played? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted March 12, 2014 Author Share Posted March 12, 2014 Missed the game - any opinions on how MacDonald played? Pretty much just more of what we've seen the first two games. Solid, unspectacular. I remember one sequence where he did a nice job defending Jagr one on one. Of course, he's no Bundy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 @JackStraw Thank you sir...and kudos for the Bundy/Jagr reference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 I would be fine with a 5 year 25 mill contract...he *appears* to be worth every penny. He *appears* to be -19 this season $25M for five years is, to me, ridiculous (with all due respect). I don't have a problem going into the mid-4s - pending continued performance (he had his second "minus" game for the Flyers last night) - but I just don't see him as a $5M defenceman. He projects to 30 points and, going back two seasons to the full season, that puts him in line with Filip Kuba and Zach Bogosian. Bogosian, for example, got a big payday and long contract at $5.1M and went from his 30 point performance in 11-12 to 14 in 33 last year (35 projected) but this year has 10 in 50 (projecting to 16 over 82 games). Making a long term commitment to a guy based on a short period is never, IMO, a good idea. Making a deal simply because you gave up something to get the player is likewise ill-advised. I'd offer him $4.25/4Y if I had to do something rightnow. They don't. I'm perfectly content to get a sense of how he plays against the top teams that the Flyers will be facing over the next 17 games before committing to him to face those teams for the next five years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 @radoran I wonder if the Flyers are hoping the "warm embrace " of the organization will nudge Mac to sign before he hits the open market. That is probably the best chance for the contract length and term to be amenable to us sofa GMs Look, there is a shortage of quality defensmen in the league, he hits the open market and someone will offer some bat chit crazy number to him , and he'd be a fool not to take it. So where is the fine line between bidding against yourself or Matt Carle-ing ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 @radoran I wonder if the Flyers are hoping the "warm embrace " of the organization will nudge Mac to sign before he hits the open market. That is probably the best chance for the contract length and term to be amenable to us sofa GMs Look, there is a shortage of quality defensmen in the league, he hits the open market and someone will offer some bat chit crazy number to him , and he'd be a fool not to take it. So where is the fine line between bidding against yourself or Matt Carle-ing ? The "warm embrace" generally means a ridiculous term with a ridiculous amount and a NTC/NMC... Matt Carle was a solid 35/40 point per season player who hasn't had a minus season since 07-08. He's signed at $5.5M per. I just simply don't see MacDonald in that category. Yet(?) Could change - again he'll be put into some big situations against top teams over the next few weeks. But as it is, MacDonald has yet to actually score 30 in the league (he projected to that in 10-11 and then put up 19 in 75 and 14 in 48 (projects to 24) and might hit 30 this season - primarily because he was the top guy for the Islanders.$5+M for a shot blocker putting up 25/30 seems a little much to me, is all... They'll have more than enough time to make a deal with MacDonald before he becomes a UFA. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 @radoran I wonder if the Flyers are hoping the "warm embrace " of the organization will nudge Mac to sign before he hits the open market. That is probably the best chance for the contract length and term to be amenable to us sofa GMs Look, there is a shortage of quality defensmen in the league, he hits the open market and someone will offer some bat chit crazy number to him , and he'd be a fool not to take it. So where is the fine line between bidding against yourself or Matt Carle-ing ? He is a 2nd pairing defenseman at most, and a 3rd pairing for most NHL teams (again, if the analysis by philly.com, TSN, and CBC pundits are to be believed). I will take their analysis at face value because I have no reason not to. So, I agree that there is a shortage of quality defensemen in the league. And if we're talking a legitimate top pairing defenseman, then you probably have to pay a premium to get them - kinda like bidding above list price for a home in a hot market. But there are no shortage of 2nd/3rd pairing defensemen in the league. In fact, we've got a whole team of them If MacD really commands near the $5M range, I say let him walk. He's not the calibre of defenseman that's worth paying a premium for. Again, that's if you believe that he is a 2nd/3rd pairing guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 @brelic I am of the opinion that he's easily in the top 4 for our group, I can't see how this is a question. On most NHL teams he's a second pairing guy. Our defense isn't made up of 2s and 3s ... it is more like a team of 4s 5s and 6s.the Rangers defense corps is made up of 2s and 3s.I hope some of the guys in the system work out so we can have some quality guys on the roster 1-6 instead of the last 5 years where we're always trying to hide the 3rd pairing.AMac on the roster would help toward that goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 He is a 2nd pairing defenseman at most, and a 3rd pairing for most NHL teams (again, if the analysis by philly.com, TSN, and CBC pundits are to be believed). I will take their analysis at face value because I have no reason not to.So, I agree that there is a shortage of quality defensemen in the league. And if we're talking a legitimate top pairing defenseman, then you probably have to pay a premium to get them - kinda like bidding above list price for a home in a hot market. But there are no shortage of 2nd/3rd pairing defensemen in the league. In fact, we've got a whole team of them If MacD really commands near the $5M range, I say let him walk. He's not the calibre of defenseman that's worth paying a premium for.Again, that's if you believe that he is a 2nd/3rd pairing guy. I'm in this mindset. Holmgren has assembled the highest paid defence in the league. They play like they should be paid toward the lower end of the scale. Paying guys how you hope they play hasn't worked out...maybe it's time to just stop doing it. MacDonald isn't going to make or break this team. Maybe he just wanted out of the Isle and he'll take it to play in Philly? If not, cya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 (edited) I'm in this mindset. Holmgren has assembled the highest paid defence in the league. They play like they should be paid toward the lower end of the scale. Paying guys how you hope they play hasn't worked out...maybe it's time to just stop doing it. MacDonald isn't going to make or break this team. Maybe he just wanted out of the Isle and he'll take it to play in Philly? If not, cya. Yes and this is all a direct result of trading 1st and 2nd round picks and not drafting anyone and now having to over pay for guys now McD should be slotted as a 2nd or 3rd pairing guy and should be paid accordingly...like has been stated....4.5 mill tops....if required more i'd pass...see if you can trade his rights before the draft and try to recoop the loss if at all possible. On the Flyers after Kimmo retires Coby will be the #1 guy but is really a #2 then by default McD could be the 3rd and should be the 4th. Schenn is a 4th tops as with Streit....Flyers just basically have a bunch of 2nd and 3rd pairing guys. And it doesn't seem like there will be an option for that elusive #1 out there barring some crazy trade. Edited March 12, 2014 by OccamsRazor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 The fact of the matter OR is that everybody realizes the importance of what a #1 Dman brings to a team...so nobody wants to let theirs go. Nashville drove that point home with a sledgehammer. So now you have to draft your own, or overpay to take somebodys broken down about to retire guy. Which only gets you out of the bind you were in for one or two years and then you're right back where you started. So maybe instead of forever trading those 2nd and 3rd round picks, we should be taking a shot at those Keith/Weber/Subban diamonds in the rough...OR stop signing the Brieres and Bryzgalovs and Streits and LeCavaliers that keep us too good to draft the Doughtys, Pietrangelos and Joneses but too lousy to actually win. I know I keep saying this...and I will until Flyer management stops doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 I'm still taking a cautious wait and see attitude with the MacDaddy....but what I have seen thus far, I don't let the guy walk for a half a million.....we DESPERATELY need to make this defense more mobile and smart, and he's a real good start. Hopefully we can add years because of his age, which might overcome a bit of the cash part of the equation. Right now, I view him as a solid second pairing guy. I think if he's on the top pp, he should be able to put in 40 pts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 $25M for five years is, to me, ridiculous (with all due respect).I don't have a problem going into the mid-4sI'd offer him $4.25/4Y if I had to do something right now.I've made it clear that I really like the guy. But I completely agree with all of that. I'm sticking with my $4-$4.5 for 4 years. I really don't think it takes any more than that, not should it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 I'm still taking a cautious wait and see attitude with the MacDaddy....but what I have seen thus far, I don't let the guy walk for a half a million.....we DESPERATELY need to make this defense more mobile and smart, and he's a real good start. Hopefully we can add years because of his age, which might overcome a bit of the cash part of the equation. Right now, I view him as a solid second pairing guy. I think if he's on the top pp, he should be able to put in 40 pts. A half million here, a million there...it doesn't make much difference....except we're doing it to too many players. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 A half million here, a million there...it doesn't make much difference....except we're doing it to too many players. BINGO! That's how you end up with the league's most expensive defense that plays nothing like the league's best defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 I've made it clear that I really like the guy. But I completely agree with all of that.I'm sticking with my $4-$4.5 for 4 years. I really don't think it takes any more than that, not should it. I'm predisposed to like him, but am still not entirely sold. I don't get some of the projections which are being put on him nor comparisons to guys who have actually done it already. I think the upcoming stretch will tell us a lot - about Ronald and the rest of the team. A half million here, a million there...it doesn't make much difference....except we're doing it to too many players. I'm just saying let the guy show me he deserves a 10 times increase in salary before signing him to a long term contract. Even playing the top pair for the Islanders and having a PP unit with players like Tavares, Vanek and Okposo he was barely projecting to 30+ points. I don't see how that makes him a 40-point guy here - happy to be wrong. They have the perfect opportunity to do some evaluation with this stretch run. Take advantage of it. If it winds up costing an extra half million for a guy we're all going to be happy to have - so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 I'm just saying let the guy show me he deserves a 10 times increase in salary before signing him to a long term contract. That is what i'm saying too.................................................................. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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