Dropping the Gloves: Was signing Lecavalier a mistake?

[pilldoc]

What trends? Suckage? I'm sorry, but last year was an abortion and the very end was only a mirage--not a trend--that only served to screw up our draft position.

There is nothing good about this cluster **** of a defense and there wasn't last year either.

The Vinny signing was unmitigated insanity on Homers part

and to think at one point we had the 5th or 6th spot in the draft.  We could have had Seth Jones fall into our lap!!!  the win streak at the end of last season was nothing more than a ban-aid for the real problems this team has.....

[doom88]

totally agree!!!  That is what i have been saying too, but some on here disagree with our train of thought.  I see no reason why Lauridson should not be on this team right now.

 

That last part about blocking youth, I agree.  The Flyers don't do a good enough job developing guys early enough I think.  It's really annoying because sometimes we get a guy with potential, and they don't get chances early or often enough (JVR, B Schenn, Couturier, Giroux).

[B21]

This 

 

Holmgren, out of pure luck, gets out of the Briere and Bryz signings (yes Bryz had 7 good games and yes Briere had 2 nice regular seasons and 3 nice playoffs...it was an EIGHT YEAR CONTRACT) Of course the team is still handcuffed every summer with the 7 year over 35 Pronger deal. So how can we combine all three? I got it,  sign 35 year old Mark Streit and broken down Vinnie LeCavalier. Everytime you think this team has an actual plan, it just gets thrown out the window for "Oh ya, we can win now".

 

I swear that every day of every month of every year on every calendar in Flyers management offices is February 2nd. 

 

Not that you needed more ammuntion but....

 

Assuming no buyouts happened (Cap Geek does not take those into account on its list), 6 of the top 30 contracts (by length in years) currently in force are for players who were with the Flyers when they signed them. Tthat includes Weber who signed the Flyers offer that the Preds matched).

 

1. Weber

8. Mike Richards

11. VLC

12. Jeff Carter

19. Bryz

26. Briere

 

FWIW, Pronger is 45th.

 

Extensions that take effect next season (i.e. = Giroux, Letang, Malkin) were not on the list.

[jammer2]

@B21  We all know the painful truth, Homer has no long term vision and no idea how to build a winner. He has proven that over and over. Only a true idiot would luckily squeeze out of those horrid Briere and Bryz contracts and go and do the exact same thing over again. This team is not willing to pay the price (a few years of mediocrity) for long term gains. That trip to the finals (only cause we won a shoot out on the last day of the regular season) did more harm than most can fathom. Now they think they are always in the race, always a few players away from glory...I'm so sick of this unreasonable line of thinking.

[doom88]

@B21 We all know the painful truth, Homer has no long term vision and no idea how to build a winner. He has proven that over and over. Only a true idiot would luckily squeeze out of those horrid Briere and Bryz contracts and go and do the exact same thing over again. This team is not willing to pay the price (a few years of mediocrity) for long term gains. That trip to the finals (only cause we won a shoot out on the last day of the regular season) did more harm than most can fathom. Now they think they are always in the race, always a few players away from glory...I'm so sick of this unreasonable line of thinking.

They were one player away from the Cup that year, an actual NHL goalie.

There are plenty of teams that suck, few turn it into a Cup. Plus, a lot of fans aren't patient enough for a tanking. Why not build off of the current core and make a run? A sniper would do wonders for this team. A minor defensive facelift too (Grossmann for Bourdon). I think smaller changes are what the team needs. It helps chemistry and consistency, while attempting to provide exactly what is needed, and nothing more.

[murraycraven]

  Jason Ackeson from the Phantoms could have provided close to the same numbers as Vinny, with no long term commitment. This team *always* thinks it's a few big names away from taking it all.....another classic mismanagement of cap space and assets. Homer = tool.

 

 

I honestly think signing these free agent vets is nothing more to draw ticket sales b/c they happen to be a big name:  VLC, Roenick, Amonte, yadda yadda yadda...

 

This is more sarcasm than what I actually think but maybe there is some truth to it

[ruxpin]

They were one player away from the Cup that year, an actual NHL goalie.

There are plenty of teams that suck, few turn it into a Cup. Plus, a lot of fans aren't patient enough for a tanking. Why not build off of the current core and make a run? A sniper would do wonders for this team. A minor defensive facelift too (Grossmann for Bourdon). I think smaller changes are what the team needs. It helps chemistry and consistency, while attempting to provide exactly what is needed, and nothing more.

I don't agree with either assessment (2010 or the current team). But then again even as a kid I never did like Kool Aid much.

If there was ever a team that was handed way more than their share of luck, it was the 2010 team. The clock simply struck twelve. But that run is the sick delusion that this organization has fed it's fans since. Enough that some actually try to sell the fantasy that the last 10-14 games of last year's horrible lost season was a "trend." I appreciate glass half full, but not when the contents are hallucinogens.

[doom88]

I don't agree with either assessment (2010 or the current team). But then again even as a kid I never did like Kool Aid much.

If there was ever a team that was handed way more than their share of luck, it was the 2010 team. The clock simply struck twelve. But that run is the sick delusion that this organization has fed it's fans since. Enough that some actually try to sell the fantasy that the last 10-14 games of last year's horrible lost season was a "trend." I appreciate glass half full, but not when the contents are hallucinogens.

Fair points, and I appreciate them. Maybe it is a little kool aid, especially considering that regular season, but anything better than a goalie nicknamed "Leaky", and I really think that the Flyers beat Chicago.

The end of last "season" was a short term trend in my opinion, but obviously your remarks hold water now.

[jammer2]

@doom88   The only nickname that is worse than leaky for a goalie has to be red light.....ha ha. The funny thing is, if Leighton somehow played lights out of the last 4 periods of 2010, he would have got a 10 year deal for 6 or 7 mill...scary stuff. That is how obtuse our management team is. Meanwhile, the goalie that did win gets traded away like yesterdays leftovers. To this day, that was the only major miscalculation by Stan Bowman. Even though I think Nemi is substantially better than Crawford, guess it did not come back to bite him in the ass to badly, huh? Chicago would be a lot tougher to deal with having Nemi in net on most nights, but ya can't argue with success I guess.

[radoran]

@doom88 The only nickname that is worse than leaky for a goalie has to be red light.....ha ha. The funny thing is, if Leighton somehow played lights out of the last 4 periods of 2010, he would have got a 10 year deal for 6 or 7 mill...scary stuff.

BEACH BALL!

[jammer2]

@radoran  HA HA...I had forgot Dan Cloutier had the BeachBall monkier. I goggled and came up with a 25 post thread from HF boards "unflattering goalie nicknames"...some gems in there!!

 

 

 http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=728299

[pilldoc]

@radoran  HA HA...I had forgot Dan Cloutier had the BeachBall monkier. I goggled and came up with a 25 post thread from HF boards "unflattering goalie nicknames"...some gems in there!!

 

 

 http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=728299

 

 

LOL... Turdco

 

[radoran]

@radoran HA HA...I had forgot Dan Cloutier had the BeachBall monkier. I goggled and came up with a 25 post thread from HF boards "unflattering goalie nicknames"...some gems in there!!

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=728299

Was thinking the Trevor Kidd graphic

[Howie58]

Greetings:

 

I think the Vinny and Streit signings will be viewed as potential daggers for Homer's career, particularly the former. I think these two have very limited trade value.  It is sad but true.

 

Peace,

 

Howie

[jammer2]

LOL... Turdco

 

 

  That one had me seriously cracking up!!

[Lindbergh31]

@jammer2

 

I think you can add the conference finals in '08 to screwing the Flyers out of a proper rebuild, it gave Snider and Holmgren a false sense that they were "Just this close" to being a contender again after the dreaded 06/07 season. Course the hockey gods didn't help that the Flyers didn't end up with the first pick overall and drafting Patrick Kane (how would he look playing along side Giroux). Holmgren either needs to quit or get shown to the door and let someone else take the reigns. Since the eastern conference is a crap shoot after Pittsburgh and Boston why not play the young guys and see what they can do. If you make the playoffs great if not you get a high draft pick to keep building. I'm tired of the close but no cigar building of a team, build thru the draft so you have a contender (like what Boston and Chicago did) for a long time.

[jammer2]

@Lindbergh31   Totally agree, play the kids and let the pieces fall where they may. The Flyers should be giving Gus at least 50% of the power play time. You'd get to see if he is capable of evolving in the pp qb role, instead of guessing his ability to progress, how about we just find out what he can do? A lot of people will scoff and laugh, but I see 50 point potential in Gus.....but we have to put him in the right situations to succeed and grow. Another positive in letting Gus play the pp, we would be better prepared for an untimely injury to Kimo or Streit.

 

I probably sound like a broken record, but Oliver Lauridsen should be at *least* getting a call up, so we can see if he has progressed since we last saw him at the NHL level. If we don't get to see him this year, we would be wasting a chance at some cross comparisons across 2 different seasons. We need real life answers on the progression of our prospects, not guess work. Let's find out what we have and then make the appropriate decisions.

[ruxpin]

@Lindbergh31   Totally agree, play the kids and let the pieces fall where they may. The Flyers should be giving Gus at least 50% of the power play time. You'd get to see if he is capable of evolving in the pp qb role, instead of guessing his ability to progress, how about we just find out what he can do? A lot of people will scoff and laugh, but I see 50 point potential in Gus.....but we have to put him in the right situations to succeed and grow. Another positive in letting Gus play the pp, we would be better prepared for an untimely injury to Kimo or Streit.

 

I probably sound like a broken record, but Oliver Lauridsen should be at *least* getting a call up, so we can see if he has progressed since we last saw him at the NHL level. If we don't get to see him this year, we would be wasting a chance at some cross comparisons across 2 different seasons. We need real life answers on the progression of our prospects, not guess work. Let's find out what we have and then make the appropriate decisions.

 

So, actually use the tools you have to see if they're appropriate for the job before going out and buying something else.    What a novel idea.

[OH1FlyersFan]

I'll just say that i would have like the 4.5mill x 5 he is bringing home on a #2 or #3 D man this team needs badly.

 

Totally this!  And add to that money the outrageous amount we're paying Streit in that ungodly contract and we could add a pretty nice d-man or two.  Streit's had flashes of good play and a couple of goals at key times, but overall, I'm still not impressed with the quality of his play versus the quality of his contract -- something that seems to happen to the Flyers whenever they sign someone to one of their patented platinum deals. There are still huge consistency problems with Streit - same with Vinny.  And their age is just the salt in the wound.

[OccamsRazor]

Totally this!  And add to that money the outrageous amount we're paying Streit in that ungodly contract and we could add a pretty nice d-man or two.  Streit's had flashes of good play and a couple of goals at key times, but overall, I'm still not impressed with the quality of his play versus the quality of his contract -- something that seems to happen to the Flyers whenever they sign someone to one of their patented platinum deals. There are still huge consistency problems with Streit - same with Vinny.  And their age is just the salt in the wound.

 

 

Yeah he to me he is overpaid Bruno Gervais that finds the twine a couple more times than Bruno did here, but still for his money i can think of many others i would have pursued before him...even in a trade. but that is close to 10 mill per year that could have been spread out better and covered more holes....but oh well for making sense.

 

Like i said i wasn't the biggest Carle fan at times...but with hindsight knowing what i know now i would have just resigned him and sign Jagr even before Vinny. 

 

With Jagr he was pretty decent on defense wasn't gonna win the Selke or anything but Vinny and his -15 is UGLY!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited February 3, 2014 by OccamsRazor

[King Knut]

The in streak at the end of the season was little more than all the teams they were playing either knowing that they were safely in the playoffs and not risking too much OR realizing That winning only lost them draft position in a fairly strong year.

The Flyers foolishly thought they were turning a corner. They were the only ones desperate to win at that point. Why? I have no idea.

and to think at one point we had the 5th or 6th spot in the draft. We could have had Seth Jones fall into our lap!!! the win streak at the end of last season was nothing more than a ban-aid for the real problems this team has.....

[King Knut]

Just out of curiosity, how much of the luck that the 2010 team had handed to them do you think would have been necessary had they been playing a healthy NHL caliber goalie?

And by luck you mean winning game 82 in a shootout (with Boucher -Leighton and Razor both injured) I presume and then the historic comeback against the Bruins? Because the other two playoff series they won, they did so quite handily and dominantly.

I'm not sure how winning 4 straight games is lucky or scoring 4 unanswered goals in the second half of game 5 is lucky. Both seem to require some staying power and doggedness, which both seem antithetical to lucky.

Kane's cup winning goal? That kinda seemed lucky.

carter (on two broken feet) hitting niemi's pads? Also seems like bad luck.

They were pretty much hanging in there against a Blackhawks team that everyone likes to say was worlds better, but the difference in that series (besides the old men on the flyers slowin down with farigue and taking too many penalties) was the goaltenders. Pure and simple. Sorry.

I don't agree with either assessment (2010 or the current team). But then again even as a kid I never did like Kool Aid much.

Last year's end was a joke and the joke was in us. No one else was competing at that point.

If there was ever a team that was handed way more than their share of luck, it was the 2010 team. The clock simply struck twelve. But that run is the sick delusion that this organization has fed it's fans since. Enough that some actually try to sell the fantasy that the last 10-14 games of last year's horrible lost season was a "trend." I appreciate glass half full, but not when the contents are hallucinogens.

[King Knut]

You know, I'll even give the Blackhawks te benefit I the doubt and suggest that with a good goalie, the flyers may still have lost, BUT the Blackhawks would have had to have found new ways of beating them. They would have had to have shown more tha they had been.

Entirely possible that they were a good enough team then to do that and just ind a different weakness. We'll never know. Because it was a fairly close series and as it turned out, the goalie was the difference.

Maybe if it had been Razor playing decent pro level hockey in net the hawks would have found another way. Who knows. In reality they didn't have to. Our goalies were all mediocre to begin with and playing hurt on top of that.

I'm with you. A healthy Emery lifts that cup and bitter enemies Richards and Pronger walk together forever.

Fair points, and I appreciate them. Maybe it is a little kool aid, especially considering that regular season, but anything better than a goalie nicknamed "Leaky", and I really think that the Flyers beat Chicago.

The end of last "season" was a short term trend in my opinion, but obviously your remarks hold water now.

[Mad Dog]

Do you suppose it's even about being a few big names from taking it all?  Or do you think it's about "we have to have a few marquee names to sell tickets and jerseys because the people that post on the Flyers' Facebook posts eat that crap up?

 

In all seriousness, I no longer think it's even a "win now" thing.  It's simply about the appearance of trying and some new names for jersey and ticket sales.

 

You know, I always considered this at least on the periphery that the Flyers' agenda is to fill seats.  And you know what?  I wouldn't be too much opposed to that whole notion, actually.  But watching Snider for more than 2 decades, I have to say he genuinely wants to win.  How he goes about that is the whole different story, but I eally think that's on the top of the team's agenda - not so much selling tickets.

[ruxpin]

@King Knut

 

 

Just out of curiosity, how much of the luck that the 2010 team had handed to them do you think would have been necessary had they been playing a healthy NHL caliber goalie?

A hell of a lot.  They completely sucked that winter and spring.  We were all beating the same horse about inconsistency, lack of effort, a clueless captain, etc. etc. the whole season.  They were lucky as hell the Rangers stumbled at the end to even get in the playoffs

And by luck you mean winning game 82 in a shootout (with Boucher -Leighton and Razor both injured) I presume (a coin toss at best)  and then the historic comeback against the Bruins? Because the other two playoff series they won, they did so quite handily and dominantly.  Yeah, they beat the Devils pretty handily.  Good on them.  They were lucky the Habs drew the Capitals and not the Flyers.  Then they were lucky the Habs also beat the Pens.  Arguably the two most dangerous teams going into the playoffs that year; at least the two that presumably would have given the Flyers the most trouble.  They were lucky that the Habs coach was a pompous idiot and their goalie did his best Fleury impression.  (The Habs stuff is stretching the definition of "lucky" in my book, but it helps my case so I'm running with it).

I'm not sure how winning 4 straight games is lucky or scoring 4 unanswered goals in the second half of game 5 is lucky. Both seem to require some staying power and doggedness, which both seem antithetical to lucky.  Yeah, you don't think it was a bit lucky that Bruins win the first three games and THEN Gagne returns AND Krejci gets hurt for the rest of the series?  What is that if not lucky?  You don't think it's lukcy that the game winning goal of game 7 was on a power play from a too many men penalty?   

Kane's cup winning goal? That kinda seemed lucky.   As in "Kane was lucky Leighton was in net?"   Yeah, agreed.

carter (on two broken feet) hitting niemi's pads? Also seems like bad luck.  Not bad luck.  Suckage by Carter.

They were pretty much hanging in there against a Blackhawks team that everyone likes to say was worlds better, but the difference in that series (besides the old men on the flyers slowin down with farigue and taking too many penalties) was the goaltenders. Pure and simple. Sorry.

 

The regular season wasn't about the goalies.  They actually held their own despite the fact at the time I completely hated it.  The rotating goalie injuries in the playoffs can be considered as the Flyers overcoming luck, too.  But the Flyers didn't just barely make the playoffs because of the goalies.  The Flyers just barely made the playoffs because the team in front decided to keep hitting the snooze alarm all season.

 

Yes.  Luck.  Getting in on crap shoot..er..shoot out goal in game 82 when the team SUCKED at shoot outs.  Yeah, I'm going to quite safe and securely call any fruit from that tree "luck."