Regroup and Readjust: Expectations

[VanIsleFlyer]

I agree with both of you. Like Gretzky said, "you miss 100% of the shots you DON'T take!" or something like that!

[Cheesesteak]

Great post.

 

You forgot #6 - Replace Homer with Hextall  ^_^

[radoran]

Like most, I think Murray nails it.

 

Might have a few quibbles/comments (Timonen is first unit because he's been with them under Berube's system for years, for example) but it is an outstanding recitation of the problems facing this franchise.

 

They are many and frustrating and usually addressed with a "make the playoffs and anything can happen" mentality.

 

I'd be happier with a "retooling" if I knew what it was that they were trying to "retool" or if I had any faith that the people in charge can make the right "retooling" decisions.

 

As it is, they took a team that "anything can happened" it's way to the Cup Final and gutted it within two years.

 

Is there another example of a "young" team making it to the Final and then outright jettisonning 75% of the roster in the next two years?

[Cheesesteak]

@murraycraven

 

Awesome post, you nailed everything when it comes to the Flyers this year. Holmgren and Hextall have to sit down during the Olympic break and figure out their next moves going forward. For starters they have to trade Timonen and Mez to teams who can use a veteran defenseman for a playoff run and get draft picks back. Maybe this off-season look at trying to get rid of Hartnell who seems to lost his edge when it comes to playing, maybe send him to Edmonton who could use some veteran leadership. Flyers fans have to realize that this team isn't close to being a contender let alone a playoff team. They have to start building thru the draft and make trades that will benefit the team now and long-term not just for a quick fix or because they need to trade someone for the sake of trading.

exactly

[Cheesesteak]

Great blog MC!!

 

2.. I disagree on this point of the need for a top line winger.  Raffl in a sense is a perfect compliment to Giroux and Jake.  His passes are spot on, and his work ethic is probably one of the best on the team.  I do think people forget he is a rookie.  Giroux and Jake need to be the ones scoring the goals, not Giroux and Jake setting up another talented winger.  Look at Pittsburgh for example of the Crosby - Kunitz - Dupuis line.  Raffl is a Dupuis clone - he is that guy who digs out the pucks along the boards and feeds them to his centerman.  It is up to Giroux and Jake to score the majority of the goals on this line.  Giroux and Jake just need to shoot the puck more.

 

to add...Raffl is also still getting used to playing in an American-sized rink

[OccamsRazor]

Is there another example of a "young" team making it to the Final and then outright jettisonning 75% of the roster in the next two years?

 

Florida Marlins??? They won it all twice....in 6 years....won it all in 97 tore it all apart then 6 years later 2003 won it all again.....and then tore it apart again.

 

I know it's baseball but thats all i got....

[Mad Dog]

@murraycraven

 

Wow, nicely done MC!  Didn't know you had it in you!     But seriously, well done.

 

What the Saturday game really showed me is how long a way this teams has to go before seriously competing for anything more than just a playoff spot.  And even that's a big question mark right now.

 

Thing is, it's so hard to really make sense out of this team that it makes it almost impossible to make any sort of an accurate analysis, let alone projections.  The D is sad... not surprisingly I must add.  I just can't imagine what possible good Luke Schenn brings to the team at this point.  He made himself an easy target for his critics, but really can this guy do anything right?  Why with his frame he is so tentative even in crease (where he really should be making his living) is just incomprehensible.  I have to attribute this to laziness and low hockey IQ.  I just don't know what else it can be.

 

Putting this aside for a second, I still think this is poorly coached team.  I said it before and I'll say it again.  I am not a big Berube's believer.  I really think that maybe minus one really good player on the D, this is not such a bad team.  There is no reason this roster with the quality of goaltending they are getting this year should be struggling this much. 

[OccamsRazor]

I believe that Hextall was responsible for building up the farm system in LA and I think he has the responsibility with the Flyers

 

Yeah wasn't he responsible for two blueline bust while there????

 

Thomas Hickey 4th overall (07) and Colten Teubert 13th overall (08) playing in the DEL now?????

 

If he did that here they want to hang him from the house Eric built.

 

So really makes me weary of his skills kinda...Homer does just fine locating blueline busts....i want new blood inf Homer gets canned.

Edited January 28, 2014 by OccamsRazor

[murraycraven]

@murraycraven

 

outstanding post, MC.  

 

roster issues aside, something i noticed on saturday was how the flyers as a team play defense, specifically in those moments where they can't buy a clear.  i was watching schenn, and kind of marveling at how non-committal he was.  he was skating hard in the defensive zone, but wouldn't get in anyone's face, kept himself in passing lanes, but refused to ever actually commit to a puck carrier.  i started to realize the rest of the team was doing the same thing, and then the shape of it really hit me.  the entire team was playing a collapsing box.  while at even strength.  and then i was all, "well, of course you can't gain possession, you aren't even competing for it."  they essentially fall into a penalty kill formation and surrender the points and the walls in favor of preventing cross ice plays through the slot.  board battles are routinely lost because they are prioritizing staying goal side over winning the puck.  break outs don't exist and clearances are intercepted because the box is so conservative.  worse, since they've gone to a total zone coverage mode, it's really easy for the bad guys to find soft spots between coverages and get solid shots off.  two or three of the goals on saturday were exactly that, someone found a gap behind a flyer locked into his box and had clear looks at the net with time.

 

the roster needs some help, no doubt, but i think there is a good bunch of coaching that needs to happen, too.  this roster can play a tighter and more effective game than it has been playing.  i'm not knocking berube here, he has had a bunch of problems to work out.  there are more to deal with, though.  

 

 

agree with everything you say and very well said.  There is no doubt that they can and should play a tighter game. 

Edited January 28, 2014 by murraycraven

[murraycraven]

Thomas Hickey 4th overall (07) and Colten Teubert 13th overall (08) playing in the DEL now?????

 

Wow... is that true?  If so that is a huge concern

[OccamsRazor]

Wow... is that true?  If so that is a huge concern

He was part of the brain trust...now is he the trgger man will he take sole blame for that??? If anything he partial to blame for it....so that to me is scary.

[radoran]

Florida Marlins??? They won it all twice....in 6 years....won it all in 97 tore it all apart then 6 years later 2003 won it all again.....and then tore it apart again.

 

I know it's baseball but thats all i got....

 

Yeah, that came to mind, but it's not quite the same. Baseball's much more of a game you can patch together a winner. Not like hockey.

[JackStraw]

Yeah, that came to mind, but it's not quite the same. Baseball's much more of a game you can patch together a winner. Not like hockey.

 

The Marlins didn't really patch together their teams (as best as I can remember). They were great at drafting and developing talent, then let the players sign for big money elsewhere. Miguel Cabrera being the poster child for that approach.

[fanaticV3.0]

Awesome post MC! I can't add much more. Totally agree with you. As I said before, this is a mediocre team at best. To think of this team any more is foolish. The big question is whether The stooges at the top get it? Or do the still have the blinders on and continually think we are only a player away. IMO I say they try to jettison some dead weight and try to gather as many draft picks as possible. In the process let the kids play. My only question is will the majority of Flyers fans accept this?

Great job MC!

Post of the year!

 

What is your definition of dead weight? Because two of the biggest problem players on the team right now are young: L. Schenn and Downie. So, I'd be curious as to who you think they should be getting rid of?

 

Not to mention, "the kids" aren't good enough on their own. I like our young core (Giroux, Schenn, Couturier, Voracek, Simmonds, Read, and Mason) and don't want to trade it away, but once Mason started struggling, they were exposed. They don't need more players like that. They need players who are a stabilizing presence.

Edited January 28, 2014 by fanaticV3.0

[pilldoc]

What is your definition of dead weight? Because two of the biggest problem players on the team right now are young: L. Schenn and Downie. So, I'd be curious as to who you think they should be getting rid of.

 

Not to mention, "the kids" aren't good enough on their own. I like our young core (Giroux, Schenn, Couturier, Voracek, Simmonds, Read, and Mason) and don't want to trade it away, but once Mason started struggling, they were exposed. They don't need more of that. They need players who are a stabilizing presence.

Agree with L. Schenn and Downie. I would add probably Grossman and Rosehill and Gill to that list.  Everyone knew this is not a legit playoff team.  I would have been ok playing the likes of Lauridsen and Alt to see what whe have.  Lauridsen IMO should have been on the squad this year.  Agree, I'm not touching the core.  Sorry if I did not make myself clear enough.

[radoran]

The Marlins didn't really patch together their teams (as best as I can remember). They were great at drafting and developing talent, then let the players sign for big money elsewhere. Miguel Cabrera being the poster child for that approach.

 

For the '97 Marlins, Bonilla was signed for 1997. Hernandez (World Series MVP) was signed in 1996 and was a "rookie" in 1997. Moises Alou was 1997. Devon White was signed in 1996.

 

Sheffield was a FA signing (1995).

 

Other impact places: John Cangelosi (signed 1997), Darren Daulton (trade), Jim Eisenreich (1997), Craig Counsell (1997)

 

They did have some homegrown talent: Renterria came up in 1995 and Charles Johnson.

 

In terms of longtime Marlins, you could look at Jeff Conine and Luis Castillo.

[fanaticV3.0]

Agree with L. Schenn and Downie. I would add probably Grossman and Rosehill and Gill to that list.  Everyone knew this is not a legit playoff team.  I would have been ok playing the likes of Lauridsen and Alt to see what whe have.  Lauridsen IMO should have been on the squad this year.  Agree, I'm not touching the core.  Sorry if I did not make myself clear enough.

 

Grossman, really? That's interesting. He's not a world beater or anything, but I'm not sure he makes my list of dead weight players. Agreed on the rest though.

 

See, I just can't get behind that. A team full of Lauridsen's and Laughton's is going to get destroyed. I'm not anti-youth, but I'm not a believer in just throwing kids out there either. That's a good way to ruin a young player. If the both of them make the team next year that's great, but neither fills the team's biggest needs: #1 defenseman and top-line winger. I'd prefer them to be eased into a role rather than thrown in. If they were on the team next year, neither is going to fill either one of those needs, so I'd rather let them play a smaller role and depend on more proven players for that.

[Howie58]

After Saturday's debacle I think it is a natural reaction (for Flyers fans moreso) to overreact.   I understand the Flyers were outclassed and outplayed in just about every facet of the game on Saturday.   The Bruins were relentless w/ the forecheck which is the #1 ingredient when it comes to easily beating the Flyers.   The defense simply can't read the pressure to make a good first pass and the forwards are not in position to help defense on the breakout.   This has been the issue since last year and with the current roster it will not get measurably better anytime soon. 

 

I think the one thing that needs to be readjusted, or for some of us I would say regrouped, are the expectations this season.  This Team is, at very best, barely a playoff Team in a weak Metro Division.  Before the season started this roster, in particular the defense, was not going to be an above average or average Team.   The defense has no mobility other than Coburn and Streit and the rest of the group are "stay at home" type defensmen that quite frankly are not very good defensive players on whole. 

 

This Team is incapable of beating good Teams on a somewhat consistent basis:  It took the second month of the season to beat the Pens to finally notch a win against a good Team.  The next win against a good opponent was in December against the Wings.   Looking at this years schedule they simply can not close out good Teams and have trouble maintaining a lead against bad Teams.  Combacks are great but they have been against average Teams for the most part. 

 

There are a number of issues that need to be resolved before this team is considered a legit playoff team:

 

• #1 is defense.
  • There are no #1 dmen available via trade.   The defense needs to be blown up and retooled so my hope is that Homer can retool the defense.   Why Gus has been in the pressbox is beyond explanation.  Give the kid some minutes and see what he can do night in and night out. 
  • Fluke Schenn is and was not the answer.  Give him some rest in the pressbox and let Hal Gill serve him some nice buttery popcorn and teach him what it means to be a professional.
  • Streit:   Why we acquired him I understand but why is he on the 2nd line Power Play?  Kimmo needs to be moved to the 2nd unit and give Streit some time to QB the PP with his shot.
  • Mezz:   Although he has had a nice run I think he needs to be traded, or at worst, let him walk at the end of the year.   He is a defensive liability.  It is nice that he is getting goals but we need people that can play defense - let Streit and Gus be the offensive type defensmen.
• #2 is Wing:
  • I am a big Jake fan and I would keep him on the top line but G and Jake need a pure shooter.  Someone that can finish.  Raffl is not that guy.
• # 3 is the logjam at Center:
  • It is becoming more apparent that VLC really does not have a spot on this Team.  Personally, I think VLC needs to be played at Center. 
  • How many Centers does it take to fill a linuep?  Why are we always drafting Centers?   We have talented kids and talented vets that are continuously being asked to play out of position.   While some think this may not be an issue w/ the way the game is played today it does take time to adjust and not as easy as X1, X2 and X3.   Some adjust well and others do not.
  • What happens when Laughton comes up?
• #4 is Coaching:
  • I do think Berube has done a very good job but why would you sit Mezz over Schenn when Mezz is finally playing with confidence.  He is still a defensive liability but he is scoring goals.  Schenn is a defensive liability and does not score.
  • The line tinkering to fit VLC in the lineup needs to be addressed.  Have him Center the 4th line if it needs to happens.
  • Rosehill should not be in the lineup - period.  End of story.  I could care less if the other Team is dressing a goon.  Like it or not that part of the game is no longer needed.
• #5 is Intangibles:
  • What and where is the heart and soul of this Team?  Someone that plays w/ smarts and an edge...  Someone to lift the Team in a time of need.   I hear all the same things from G and Kimmo.  Where is the accountability when someone is not doing their part.  IE:  like Pronger getting in G's face for not playing the right way.
  • Youth: this is the #1 question and  I do not think there is an answer right now.   Is Cooter and Schenn developing at the right pace?  Are they the future of this organization?  Will the Flyers and fans have enough patience to let them develop?
  • Goaltending:  Although I do not think Mason has played great over the past few weeks I think he is a product of an incredibly bad defense.   With that being said he is going to have to be the best player on the ice each and every night for this Team to win.  

 

I am not in favor of trading away the youth or Giroux.  G is still a young Captain and I think he will be fine.   The question is how do you retool the defense and add a legit scoring winger w/out moving some of the young core?  IMO it is time for Homer and the Stooges to start building a team through the draft.  Dare I say a new perspective?

 

Stop throwing away second round picks like used tissues and draft.   In todays world of the salary cap and teams holding onto defensemen it becomes clear that drafting players is the most important aspect of any organization.  I am okay w/ a losing season this year and honestly was not expecting the playoffs to begin the year.  It takes years and patience to build through the draft but IMO is the only way to truly build a Team.   Not treating Team like a puzzle every other year.  The revolving door of players needs to stop.  Create consistency in the Club by **building** a team.   Is it easy?  No but it works. 

 

Just some random rambles from one murraycraven.   Cheers.

MurrayC:

 

This is an excellent post and your ramblings are better than most folks' "learned opinion."

 

I would not overreact either. But as I mentioned in the thread on Morganti's piece, we need to consider the architect and staff.  Being deliberative/patient means little if the design and execution of future plans leave a lot to be desired.  Since the '04-'5 strike we have seen a lot of inconsistency. And that spans what, four coaches.  Our two flukey deep playoff runs seem like...flukes. Meanwhile, I am unsure of long-term direction and I wonder if this team can draft/build anyone outside of the forward position.

 

Peace, and one of the joys of this board is the intelligence of posts...no Philly.com schlock...hats off to the moderator and gang.

 

Howie

[pilldoc]

Grossman, really? That's interesting. He's not a world beater or anything, but I'm not sure he makes my list of dead weight players. Agreed on the rest though.

 

See, I just can't get behind that. A team full of Lauridsen's and Laughton's is going to get destroyed. I'm not anti-youth, but I'm not a believer in just throwing kids out there either. That's a good way to ruin a young player. If the both of them make the team next year that's great, but neither fills the team's biggest needs: #1 defenseman and top-line winger. I'd prefer them to be eased into a role rather than thrown in. If they were on the team next year, neither is going to fill either one of those needs, so I'd rather let them play a smaller role and depend on more proven players for that.

 

See your point of view, I will just agree to disagree which is ok.  In a perfect world I would love to go your route, but  this defense is bad even with vetern players.  I would rather have Lauridsen take a few bumps here and there and learn on a daile basis then L. Schenn just standing there with his mouth wide open.  But hey..that is what thes forums are for.  To debate in a civil way.  Peace.

[JackStraw]

For the '97 Marlins, Bonilla was signed for 1997. Hernandez (World Series MVP) was signed in 1996 and was a "rookie" in 1997. Moises Alou was 1997. Devon White was signed in 1996.

 

Sheffield was a FA signing (1995).

 

Other impact places: John Cangelosi (signed 1997), Darren Daulton (trade), Jim Eisenreich (1997), Craig Counsell (1997)

 

They did have some homegrown talent: Renterria came up in 1995 and Charles Johnson.

 

In terms of longtime Marlins, you could look at Jeff Conine and Luis Castillo.

 

Every team is going to acquire some players via trade or free agency, but the Marlins did a better job than most at growing their own. They certainly never paid a whole lot for expensive free agents.

[radoran]

Every team is going to acquire some players via trade or free agency, but the Marlins did a better job than most at growing their own. They certainly never paid a whole lot for expensive free agents.

 

Three position players signed in 96-97. Four of their major extra players.

 

I haven't even looked at pitchers yet.

 

Your point that three position starters were developed internally is a good one. But the same number of position players - and the World Series MVP pitcher - were added in 96 and 97.

 

I do not believe there is an equivalent happening in hockey.

[murraycraven]

I was reading Timmy P's article this morning and there was a quote from Ed Snider that basically said they can beat any team in the league if they play the right way and fix the bad habits.   I hope this was just a loosey goosey comment b/c if not dementia has set in. Here is the quote:

 

“I don’t know anything about trading,” Snider said. “It’s not a quick process. There is no quick fixes in this game. I think we’re a good team, and if we pull it all together like we did during a good chunk of that [9-2] run, we can beat anybody.”

 

I would agree if the were playing in the AHL but this team is nowhere near beating a high caliber team in a series.  Let alone making it to the playoffs.  I feel like every time I read something there is an excuse about the scheduling and lack of practices.   It is getting tiresome...  Here is the article if you would like to read it:

 

http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-philadelphia-flyers/snider-no-quick-fixes-slumping-flyers

[pilldoc]

I was reading Timmy P's article this morning and there was a quote from Ed Snider that basically said they can beat any team in the league if they play the right way and fix the bad habits. I hope this was just a loosey goosey comment b/c if not dementia has set in. Here is the quote:

“I don’t know anything about trading,” Snider said. “It’s not a quick process. There is no quick fixes in this game. I think we’re a good team, and if we pull it all together like we did during a good chunk of that [9-2] run, we can beat anybody.”

I would agree if the were playing in the AHL but this team is nowhere near beating a high caliber team in a series. Let alone making it to the playoffs. I feel like every time I read something there is an excuse about the scheduling and lack of practices. It is getting tiresome... Here is the article if you would like to read it:

http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-philadelphia-flyers/snider-no-quick-fixes-slumping-flyers

Dementia has officially set in. Does Ed not realize during that band aid of a run, this team beat likes of Edmonton and Calgary? Not exactly cream of the crop but more like the bottom of the barrel. I have meds for these delusions of grandeur . Quick someone get him a either a 202 or 302 commit .

[radoran]

I was reading Timmy P's article this morning and there was a quote from Ed Snider that basically said they can beat any team in the league if they play the right way and fix the bad habits.   I hope this was just a loosey goosey comment b/c if not dementia has set in. Here is the quote:

 

“I don’t know anything about trading,” Snider said. “It’s not a quick process. There is no quick fixes in this game. I think we’re a good team, and if we pull it all together like we did during a good chunk of that [9-2] run, we can beat anybody.”

 

I would agree if the were playing in the AHL but this team is nowhere near beating a high caliber team in a series.  Let alone making it to the playoffs.  I feel like every time I read something there is an excuse about the scheduling and lack of practices.   It is getting tiresome...  Here is the article if you would like to read it:

 

http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-philadelphia-flyers/snider-no-quick-fixes-slumping-flyers

 

can you imagine owning a sports franchise for 46 years and you "don't know anything" about trading?

 

I'd be frightfully embarrassed to say such a thing.

[OH1FlyersFan]

can you imagine owning a sports franchise for 46 years and you "don't know anything" about trading?

 

I'd be frightfully embarrassed to say such a thing.

He's trying to make us believe that he doesn't have a hand in any of this, that he's not calling the shots, that he's stays out of it, or is above it.  Either that or he's finally, finally, telling us the truth and what we've known all along - he actually knows nothing.