Revisiting the Richard's Trade

[hf101]

Richie was probably one of my favorite players for the Flyers after winning a Calder Cup with the Phantoms up until he became in my opinion one of the worst captains the Flyers have ever had.  So I thought I'd check on the numbers in comparison to B. Schenn and Simmonds and it shows clearly that Holmgren got two for the price of one on that deal. 

 

For this season thus far Richards has 6 goals and 24 assists.  However since Nov 25th he hasn't scored a

goal.  B. Schenn has 12 goals and 17 assists on the season so far and has 5 goals since Nov 25th.  Add that to Simmonds tallies which are 15 goals and 17 assists on the season and 10 goals since Nov 25th.

 

The trade was a shocker at the time, but the Flyers are better off a couple of years later.

[Irishjim]

both trades..frosted tips as well, the flyers got the better of the 2..kings got the immediate reward a cup. but the flyers are better off now and don't have to worry about 11.75 of cap space to failing players

[flyerrod]

I too was and still am a Mike Richards fan but Homer really made out on that trade. The Carter trade was one that I was actually happy about. Carter streaks down the ice and fires the puck high and wide.......man did I get sick of hearing that when he was hear.

[radoran]

The Flyers got younger, cheaper and better with the trades then. That remains true now.

 

The only question is turning that potential into reality.

 

That said, if anyone here was given the option of picking up Dustin Brown ($5.85M cap through 2022) and, say, Drew Doughty ($7M cap through 2019) and winning a Cup, I doubt there are many on this board that wouldn't take that deal.

 

No, there was no guarantee of winning for LA - and they didn't even pick up both at the same time - but I don't believe there is anyone in Los Angeles who would start a thread "revisiting" the Richards trade. They would think they won it, hands down.

 

And, for me, if the Flyers don't win a Cup before Richards retires, I would probably agree with them.

[Irishjim]

I too was and still am a Mike Richards fan but Homer really made out on that trade. The Carter trade was one that I was actually happy about. Carter streaks down the ice and fires the puck high and wide.......man did I get sick of hearing that when he was hear.

rod i was watching the kings/nucks game the other night and the announcers said 2 times carter was setup perfect and both times shot "HIGH and WIDE" brought a tear of joy to my eyes

[phlfly]

The Flyers got younger, cheaper and better with the trades then. That remains true now.

 

The only question is turning that potential into reality.

 

That said, if anyone here was given the option of picking up Dustin Brown ($5.85M cap through 2022) and, say, Drew Doughty ($7M cap through 2019) and winning a Cup, I doubt there are many on this board that wouldn't take that deal.

 

No, there was no guarantee of winning for LA - and they didn't even pick up both at the same time - but I don't believe there is anyone in Los Angeles who would start a thread "revisiting" the Richards trade. They would think they won it, hands down.

 

And, for me, if the Flyers don't win a Cup before Richards retires, I would probably agree with them.

150%. 

 

The end is important as I'm saying on this board all the time. Who cares about fantasy hockey numbers, in the end winning a cup is ultimate goal as for player and fans as well. 

 

Yea I can hear it now, Carter missed the net and didn't put a puck high enough to send game 7 vs Chitown, but if you's re remember Richards and Carter were the Guys why Flyers has ended up in Cup finals. So I don;t want to hear all this sheep baaa... WE DON"T HAVE A CUP STILL!!!!

[King Knut]

You both kinda glossed over some things.

Schenn and Simmer take up two roster spots. Richards one.

Neither Schenn nor Simmer are the kind of shut down guy Richie is and was.

And dismissing the kings cup as "immediate" somehow dilutes it? THEY WON THE CUP.

I'd trade this entire team to see the team win a cup.

Point is that its not as cut and dry as you're making it out.

It was a very big deal for the kings and has taken two years to prove itself not a bust for us.

There's really no way to suggest a winner and a loser in the deal other than the fact that the kings won a cup and reached the conference finals the next year and we Los in the 2nd round and missed the playoffs.

In terms of personnel, I like all four guys we got a ton, and I'm still more ticked about losing JVR, Carle and Jagr.

But there's no sense in rationalizing those trade at this point. They got the kings a cup and we got worse so far. Stats are great, but in terms of the teams, theirs got better & ours got worse. There is as of yet no other conclusion.

I'd love to see that change, but this team ain't there yet.

both trades..frosted tips as well, the flyers got the better of the 2..kings got the immediate reward a cup. but the flyers are better off now and don't have to worry about 11.75 of cap space to failing players

[Digityman]

150%. 

 

The end is important as I'm saying on this board all the time. Who cares about fantasy hockey numbers, in the end winning a cup is ultimate goal as for player and fans as well. 

 

Yea I can hear it now, Carter missed the net and didn't put a puck high enough to send game 7 vs Chitown, but if you's re remember Richards and Carter were the Guys why Flyers has ended up in Cup finals. So I don;t want to hear all this sheep baaa... WE DON"T HAVE A CUP STILL!!!!

 

 

Who typed this for you?  Just kidding. 

 

As @radoran said, if the Flyers don't win a cup by the time Richards retires then the Kings won the trade. 

[doom88]

Trading for prospects requires patience. The Flyers team is better off with the trade right now, and hopefully more so as the years progress. Schenn especially is intriguing looking forward a year or two more.

Quick won that Cup in LA by the way. He was an impenetrable wall in front of the net.

[jammer2]

@doom88  Yep, you beat me to it. Carter and Mikey played a decent role in the cup win, but Quick won that cup, pure and simple. The other factor no one has discussed, is we don't know the ceiling for Schenn, maybe only the tip of the iceberg with this kid. I'd trade Richards for Simmer straight up right now, so as Brayden evolves, this trade just keeps getting better for the Flyers.

 

 As others have pointed out, the Kings got Carter and Richards at different times. Who knows, maybe the Kings still win without Carter and Richards, maybe Johnson, Simmer and Schenn play major roles in a Kings cup win....to me, it's silly to say the Kings won because of those deals....they certainly helped, but perhaps the guys they gave away help get the job done instead. One thing for sure, the Kings still would have had a world class goalie in Quick and a Stanley Cup caliber defense regardless of those deals.

[aziz]

And dismissing the kings cup as "immediate" somehow dilutes it? THEY WON THE CUP.

 

he wasn't diluting it.  he was pointing out the nature of the improvement for the kings versus the flyers.  kings = shortterm  flyers =  long term.  when you trade established players for prospects, you have to take a slightly longer view than a few months or even a few years down the line.  yes, the trade paid off in the ultimate way for LA and it has yet to be seen if it will for the flyers, but you have to wait and see.

[PhilsFanDrew]

Yea I can hear it now, Carter missed the net and didn't put a puck high enough to send game 7 vs Chitown, but if you's re remember Richards and Carter were the Guys why Flyers has ended up in Cup finals

 

I disagree.  Guys like Briere, Leino, Hartnell, Pronger, and yes even Leighton had much more of an impact on getting the Flyers to the Finals in 2010.   Richards was ok but everyone overrates his performance because of "the shift".  Yeah it was a great individual play from start to finish and it made for a nice cutesy "History Will be Made" commercial but it really was a bad misplay by Halak and a fortunate bounce right up to his stick.  

 

One thing for sure, the Kings still would have had a world class goalie in Quick and a Stanley Cup caliber defense regardless of those deals.

 

Totally agree and if we had Richards and Carter we would still be without Chris Pronger and Matt Carle.  The injury and loss of a legit #1 D-man and our best puck moving D-man in my opinion is the bigger reason why the Flyers haven't been able to sustain success and be a legit contender.   Also factor in the Snider panicked and traded away a young athletic goalie with lots of promise and forced Homer to sign an albatross contract to a mentally unstable weirdo.   

[Irishjim]

And dismissing the kings cup as "immediate" somehow dilutes it? THEY WON THE CUP.

there is a difference. here richards and carter where the two to build a team around (Which they are not meant for). in LA they where those 2 missing pieces a already stocked team needed

 

and the 2 rosters spots to 1. the 2 guys traded for richards each out perform him. so we ended up with 2 better richards for 1..ya hear me

[King Knut]

You wouldn't trade either one of them outright for Richards and you know it because oure smart enough to know that real hockey isnt fantasy hockey. Both of them together makes it a trade worth contemplating. And homer did contemplate it and took it because quite frankly he was pissed that two 20 something's were acting like 20 something's and he couldn't handle it. On paper the trades worked for everyone starting this season... so far. That's one way of arguing it. On paper. Numbers.

But I'm sick of hearing how these guys were failures when the team was built around them. Since 2008 when Forsberg was traded and the team became "theirs" they only ever got beat by the eventual cup winner or in the case of the redwings in '08, they lost to the penguins who lost in the finals to the redwings. They were a great core! And they did it with perpetually battered defenses and perpetually and unquestionably sub par goaltenders.

And Its not just that the kings got better with them (and they're both part of the core of that team now) its that at first the flyers got better with them at the core and then the flyers got worse without them.

Stating the trade works out for the flyers in terms of numbers is totally valid. I'll even give you that cooter helps make up for Ritchie's PK and shut down skills.

But saying Richards was the team's worst captain was mortifyingly silly. And assuming the trade worked out for both teams in the long run requires creativity and optimism and some imagination as the flyers have only gotten worse since.

Maybe they get better and get back to the finals again sometime soon. Anything can happen if a team gets hot. But I think most of us with our feet still planted in reality's soil know there's a lot more work to do before that can be expected.

I'm not saying I want them back or wish the trades hasn't happened. There are a lot of reasons having to do with the cap that those trades were smart (even if they were also total dick moves by homer).

But let's also face the fact that those trades and that salary was moved so homer could get Bryz and I think all of us would like that to have never happened and right about now if the buyouts hasn't been made possible by the new CBA I think we'd all still be a lot more pissed about that.

Saying the flyers are a better team for it yet just isn't backed up... Yet. If they win a cup in the next five years amd the kings stop making it to at least the conference finals every year, we can talk it over.

there is a difference. here richards and carter where the two to build a team around (Which they are not meant for). in LA they where those 2 missing pieces a already stocked team needed

and the 2 rosters spots to 1. the 2 guys traded for richards each out perform him. so we ended up with 2 better richards for 1..ya hear me

[King Knut]

That's some fancy crystal ball y'all got there. So you can say for sure that the flyers will win the cup and the kings will stop winning in the playoffs sometime soon?

How many years before this particular trade makes it irrelevant. By that thinking the Quebec nordiques/avalanche still have the WAY better on the Lindros trade. Has the statute of limitations run out on that or is there still hope we can win that one?

he wasn't diluting it. he was pointing out the nature of the improvement for the kings versus the flyers. kings = shortterm flyers = long term. when you trade established players for prospects, you have to take a slightly longer view than a few months or even a few years down the line. yes, the trade paid off in the ultimate way for LA and it has yet to be seen if it will for the flyers, but you have to wait and see.

[aziz]

That's some fancy crystal ball y'all got there. So you can say for sure that the flyers will win the cup and the kings will stop winning in the playoffs sometime soon?

 

who said anything about anything being definite, being for sure?    the point is that the flyers traded established top 6 roster players for a pick, a prospect, and two players in their very early 20s.  the payoff of that deal for the flyers is over the next 4 or 5 years, when those kids are all up to speed as NHL regulars, at the same level of experience as richards and carter when they left.  if you are going to use RIGHT NOW as the measuring stick, then of course the team that went young loses.  what happens from here is anyone's guess, but refusing to take into account exactly what richards and carter were traded for is being obtuse.  you have two guys who can contribute right away versus 4 players whose total NHL experience equals one of the guys going the other direction.  and you are claiming it noteworthy that the kings benefited first.  that's some impressive depth of thought right there.

 

How many years before this particular trade makes it irrelevant. By that thinking the Quebec nordiques/avalanche still have the WAY better on the Lindros trade. Has the statute of limitations run out on that or is there still hope we can win that one?

 

really?  you are really that incapable of following the simple logic here that you are going to trot out the lindros trade and hold it up as the same thing?  

 

what's more, you constantly reference the flyers getting worse after the trade as though the trade somehow did that, not the blueline falling apart with the injury to pronger, the loss of matt carle, and the aging of timonen.  the flyers would have been worse that next season whether the richards and carter deals had been made or not.  the nice thing is that with the players and prospects that came back, the team has a larger number of similar quality players around whom a new core can be and is being built, not to mention they are not saddled with the silly contracts the two of them were carrying (yes, yes, the contracts were holmgren's fault, the point is the flyers don't have to deal with them at this point).  obviously there is a lot of work to be done to get the flyers back to the point they were at prior to the trades, but that has way more to do with pronger and timonen being really very hard to replace than it does the loss of richards and carters less-than-mind-blowing contributions.

 

finally, i'm not sure how you've forgotten the last half of that last season with richards as captain.  you don't remember the whining and pouting and refusal to in any way take any responsibility for the team falling on its face?  i've never really thought "defensive" and "sullen" were particularly good qualities in a leader.

[The Quigster]

My take on Richards and Carter is neither one is capable of what was expected of them by the Flyers. LA doesn't expect them to carry the whole team.The present Flyers are slow mentally and physically. Chief is doing a great job with a room of under performers!

[brelic]

You wouldn't trade either one of them outright for Richards and you know it because oure smart enough to know that real hockey isnt fantasy hockey. Both of them together makes it a trade worth contemplating. And homer did contemplate it and took it because quite frankly he was pissed that two 20 something's were acting like 20 something's and he couldn't handle it. On paper the trades worked for everyone starting this season... so far. That's one way of arguing it. On paper. Numbers.

 

I was coming here to post something similar. 

 

These weren't hockey trades. Chicago would NEVER trade Kane and Toews. Anaheim would NEVER trade Getzlaf and Perry. Let alone trade both of them on the same day.

 

A smart, rational general manager does not trade away his captain and top scorer. Especially not on the same day. Especially not ONE year removed from a SCF appearance.

 

This was never about making a 'hockey' trade. This was something else.

 

By that thinking the Quebec nordiques/avalanche still have the WAY better on the Lindros trade. Has the statute of limitations run out on that or is there still hope we can win that one?

 

You know what? I think the Avs did get the better of the trade. They got the right pieces (read: Forsberg) back in the deal that put their team over the top and made them SC favourites for many years. They won it twice.

 

We got Lindros, but were never quite able to put the right team and right pieces around him to win a Cup.

 

I don't know... maybe that's too black and white, but the Avs won two Cups with Forsberg as a centerpiece, and we won zero. 

 

I'd say they won purely on a hockey basis.

[King Knut]

When it comes to a hockey player and a center in particular "defensive" is a great quality in a leader.

But since you didn't mean it that way and probably arent in the mood for jokes, I will point out that Pronger was exactly as crabby and defensive with the press as Richards was both before and after he was made captain. Maybe even worse. The difference? The press just didn't focus on it and write anout it wvery day. Thy laughed neevously when he picked On them and frankly I think they were scared of him and they weren't scared of richie. But hey, lets put bitchiness aside, You know what i do think a good quality of a captain is? Winning.

So essentially the big enlightenment of this thread is that the flyers traded players in their prime for youth that might be good some day. Amazing insights. Never could have sorted that one out.

And he logic that we'll never know If they're as good as Richards and carter until they're as good as Richards and carter is just so shatteringly yogi Berra. I love it.

Richards and Carter were traded because similtaniously homer was pissed at them and needed 6 million bucks over ten years for brzgalov.

Get Quick or Bernier in the Richards deal and we're not even having this discussion.

Lets put it on paper and be honest. If Homer keeps just Richards even, he can't afford Bryz and he's forced to play Boucher and bobrovsky and I don't think Boucher is winning that head to head. .

Who among us wouldn't have rather seen that happen?

I would and I'm not even a huge fan of Bobrovsky.

Lets pretend Bryz didn't lose his mind and remained the 35 game winner he started as.

He was already pushing the outer edge of his prime. By the time all the guys homer got for Richie and carter were hitting their stride so to speak, Bryz would have been well ino his 30s and probably not quite prime time anymore. That makes the trades make less sense to me as well.

As it turns out Bryz took a two year descent into madness and makes the whole thing moot.

Schenn and Simmonds are great players I'm thrilled to have. I'm a bit more thrilled with coots and jake as a return, But whatever.

I'm not regretting the trades. Please don't assume or misrepresent it. I'm just saying that all in all, they were a bit impulsive and they haven't worked out yet.

I applaud the confidence of those who think they will. I hope you're right, but I'm too old to enjoy two crappy seasons and a home ice winter classic loss for their value as player development time in the mean time.

who said anything about anything being definite, being for sure? the point is that the flyers traded established top 6 roster players for a pick, a prospect, and two players in their very early 20s. the payoff of that deal for the flyers is over the next 4 or 5 years, when those kids are all up to speed as NHL regulars, at the same level of experience as richards and carter when they left. if you are going to use RIGHT NOW as the measuring stick, then of course the team that went young loses. what happens from here is anyone's guess, but refusing to take into account exactly what richards and carter were traded for is being obtuse. you have two guys who can contribute right away versus 4 players whose total NHL experience equals one of the guys going the other direction. and you are claiming it noteworthy that the kings benefited first. that's some impressive depth of thought right there.

really? you are really that incapable of following the simple logic here that you are going to trot out the lindros trade and hold it up as the same thing?

what's more, you constantly reference the flyers getting worse after the trade as though the trade somehow did that, not the blueline falling apart with the injury to pronger, the loss of matt carle, and the aging of timonen. the flyers would have been worse that next season whether the richards and carter deals had been made or not. the nice thing is that with the players and prospects that came back, the team has a larger number of similar quality players around whom a new core can be and is being built, not to mention they are not saddled with the silly contracts the two of them were carrying (yes, yes, the contracts were holmgren's fault, the point is the flyers don't have to deal with them at this point). obviously there is a lot of work to be done to get the flyers back to the point they were at prior to the trades, but that has way more to do with pronger and timonen being really very hard to replace than it does the loss of richards and carters less-than-mind-blowing contributions.

finally, i'm not sure how you've forgotten the last half of that last season with richards as captain. you don't remember the whining and pouting and refusal to in any way take any responsibility for the team falling on its face? i've never really thought "defensive" and "sullen" were particularly good qualities in a leader.

[King Knut]

It was something else. Something called Bryzgalov.

Clarke knew he needed their cap room because he was going to blow it on the cosmonaut.

I was coming here to post something similar.

These weren't hockey trades. Chicago would NEVER trade Kane and Toews. Anaheim would NEVER trade Getzlaf and Perry. Let alone trade both of them on the same day.

A smart, rational general manager does not trade away his captain and top scorer. Especially not on the same day. Especially not ONE year removed from a SCF appearance.

This was never about making a 'hockey' trade. This was something else.

You know what? I think the Avs did get the better of the trade. They got the right pieces (read: Forsberg) back in the deal that put their team over the top and made them SC favourites for many years. They won it twice.

We got Lindros, but were never quite able to put the right team and right pieces around him to win a Cup.

I don't know... maybe that's too black and white, but the Avs won two Cups with Forsberg as a centerpiece, and we won zero.

I'd say they won purely on a hockey basis.

[King Knut]

I don't know how to break this to you, but they are pretty much assimilated into the focal point of that kings team at this point at least in terms of scoring and how they're used.

The other players on that team aren't asked to do anything more than Pronger, Timmonen, Briere and Hartnell were asked to do. And those flyers for paid more or the same as their equivalent on the kings, so exactly how are Richards and carter asked to do less there?

They're winning.

It worked for them (at least it did while quick was healthy).

The flyers are still sorting it out on our end.

Even if your suggestion, that they were in more vital roles with the flyers that they couldn't handle, we're valid, how does it make sense to trade your two most vital guys-even if you're not pleased with how thy handle being vital- with a bunch of green prospects and an overpaid cosmonaut?

Those two guys are Incredibly important to the kings.

My take on Richards and Carter is neither one is capable of what was expected of them by the Flyers. LA doesn't expect them to carry the whole team.The present Flyers are slow mentally and physically. Chief is doing a great job with a room of under performers!

[fanaticV3.0]

You both kinda glossed over some things.

Schenn and Simmer take up two roster spots. Richards one.

Neither Schenn nor Simmer are the kind of shut down guy Richie is and was.

And dismissing the kings cup as "immediate" somehow dilutes it? THEY WON THE CUP.

I'd trade this entire team to see the team win a cup.

Point is that its not as cut and dry as you're making it out.

It was a very big deal for the kings and has taken two years to prove itself not a bust for us.

There's really no way to suggest a winner and a loser in the deal other than the fact that the kings won a cup and reached the conference finals the next year and we Los in the 2nd round and missed the playoffs.

In terms of personnel, I like all four guys we got a ton, and I'm still more ticked about losing JVR, Carle and Jagr.

But there's no sense in rationalizing those trade at this point. They got the kings a cup and we got worse so far. Stats are great, but in terms of the teams, theirs got better & ours got worse. There is as of yet no other conclusion.

I'd love to see that change, but this team ain't there yet.

 

 

This is a good thing. It's called depth. They turned two young players into four (all of which are legit NHLers).

 

Richards (and Carter) were here six years and we didn't. They're cup winners because of the team they are on. They weren't cup winners here and wouldn't have been. They simply weren't good enough to do it on their own. Between that and the whole piss poor locker room attitude, it's a good thing they are one. "They" didn't get anyone a cup.

Edited January 16, 2014 by fanaticV3.0

[brelic]

They simply weren't good enough to do it on their own.

 

Nobody is, not even Crosby. 

 

The Flyers didn't put the right supporting cast around them (i.e. defensemen and goaltenders). I think we were all set up front, especially with Giroux and JVR as up and comers. But as you can see even now, our defense still isn't fixed, and as good as Mason has been, he's still young and unproven in the playoffs (and hasn't managed to string together more than one strong season in the NHL).

 

So, even if Schenn, Simmonds, Couturier, and Jake all reach their potential and even exceed it, they won't be the ones stopping odd-man rushes, blocking shots, and stopping the puck. WIthout the right supporting cast (i.e. no glaring holes), it won't really matter how well they perform.

 

The next 3-5 years are pretty crucial in terms of Giroux's prime window. We'll see how Homer (Hextall?) builds around him at ALL positions.

[fanaticV3.0]

Richie was probably one of my favorite players for the Flyers after winning a Calder Cup with the Phantoms up until he became in my opinion one of the worst captains the Flyers have ever had.  So I thought I'd check on the numbers in comparison to B. Schenn and Simmonds and it shows clearly that Holmgren got two for the price of one on that deal. 

 

For this season thus far Richards has 6 goals and 24 assists.  However since Nov 25th he hasn't scored a

goal.  B. Schenn has 12 goals and 17 assists on the season so far and has 5 goals since Nov 25th.  Add that to Simmonds tallies which are 15 goals and 17 assists on the season and 10 goals since Nov 25th.

 

The trade was a shocker at the time, but the Flyers are better off a couple of years later.

 

I loved both trades as soon as they happened. As the kids say, I was "over" both of them. The trades would have been harder to swallow if what we got in return didn't pan out, but we have 4, count em 4, legit NHLers as a result of trading two. That's called adding depth. Given that we know the two we had were not going to lead this organIzation to a cup, I'm not only "ok" with the trade, I'm happy about it. I don't regret the trades at all.

[radoran]

Quick won that Cup in LA by the way. He was an impenetrable wall in front of the net.

 

Sure, but he didn't score any goals in the playoffs.

 

Crater was tied for tops on the Kings with eight playoff tallies - including the Cup winner (one of two game winners in the Final).

 

Richards (and Justin Williams) were the third-highest scorers on the team with 15 playoff points.

 

While I concur that Quick was an essential - and vital - part of the playoff equation, to downplay the contributions of the team in front of him is a bit disingenuous.

 

Moreover, this year, the Kings have nine more points and a better record (today) in the same number of games as the Flyers. Crater has more goals (16) than the Flyers top scorer (Simmonds - 15) - in 10 fewer games.

 

Mike Richards - anointed "The Next Clarke" by the Flyers, handed the C (far too early) and a lifetime contract commitment by the team before they traded him - has more points than all but three Flyers despite not scoring a goal since November. His production is also no doubt affected by playing the role he was (IMO) designed for - third line shutdown center. His wings? Frattin (17 goals, 34 points in 114 career games) and Clifford (22 goals, 45 points in 243 games).

 

So, right now, the Kings have won a Cup, have a better record and a (former Flyer) top goal scorer with more goals than the top Flyers' scorer. The first two obviously more important than the third.

 

I still can't see a way that the Flyers "won" that trade on the merits - despite getting some very valuable assets in return - and I reiterate that they won't have "won" the trade if they don't win a Cup before Richards' ridiculous contract is over.

 

Again - the Flyers got younger, cheaper and potentially better with the Crater/Richards trades. That "potential" still has yet to be reached.

 

Not "jumping on you" - continuing the discussion.