Flyers choose L. Schenn over Yandle for JVR

[Vincent05]

http://www.sportingnews.com/nhl/story/2014-01-05/keith-yandle-flyers-us-olympic-hockey-team-roster-snubs

The Luke Schenn-James van Riemsdyk trade seemed like a bad one for the Philadelphia Flyers when it happened. After a season and a half, it looks even worse — van Riemsdyk is an Olympian for the Toronto Maple Leafs, and deservedly so. Schenn has regressed.

On Sunday, it actually got a little worse for Philly. General manager Paul Holmgren turned down a trade that would've sent van Riemsdyk to the Phoenix Coyotes for defenseman Keith Yandle a few hours before pulling the trigger on Schenn-JVR, according to CSN Philly's Tim Panaccio. Discussions between the two teams were reported at the time, but this is the first time we've seen it in such uncertain terms: the Flyers could've had Yandle, and said no thanks.

The Coyotes' Keith Yandle (AP Photo)

MORE: Lessons from the Bobby Ryan saga

The reason it came up: Yandle, surprisingly, missed out on the U.S. Olympic team. He's an elite puck-mover, but USA Hockey had concerns over his perceived high-risk style and suitability on the top four. He also can only play on the left side. Holmgren, by the way, helped choose the team.

From Scott Burnside's all-access piece on the selection process:

"It's not that he wouldn't be on the power play if he were on the team," (former Flyers coach Peter) Laviolette says. "But the risk in his game seems to be more than Dan's willing to take or wants to take with that type of player," he adds referring to head coach Dan Bylsma.

One fan: L.A. Kings coach Dean Lombardi, who wrote what was referred to as "The Yandle Manifesto" in the piece. It was funny.

"Yandle is clearly the only guy that I would consider for this team. I started this trying to figure out why the kid isn't basically amongst the top six," Lombardi says.

Because the central knock on Yandle is that he's not responsible enough defensively, Lombardi says he focused on situations in which this might be revealed in Yandle's game and how the same assessment might be applied to the other candidates.

There is no question, he says, that Yandle is the superior puck-mover and uses a combination of superior skating and passing ability to move the puck quickly up the rink.

He is the highest-scoring American defenseman over the past four years, Lombardi points out.

"Why are we discounting this kid?" he asks. If they use the theory espoused by some that inclusion should be based on current level of play and body of work, "This kid's right up there with Duncan Keith in terms of points over the past four years."

In any case, Yandle isn't on Team USA — or the Philadelphia Flyers.

If that is true, Homer is a IDIOT. We then didn't need to sign Streit.

[jammer2]

@Vincent05    Say it's not true, we could have have had the stud d man Yandle instead of Luke the stiff....say it's not so. I just threw up in my mouth a bit....yuck.

[Vincent05]

@jammer2

Me too jammer and I just ate right before reading that. I just got over the Eagles lost and this just piss me off more lol.

[brelic]

It does make me feel a bit better that Voracek stripped the puck off Yandle for the GWG last night

[The Quigster]

While discussing all the foot shooting trades the Flyers GM Homer got credit for has anybody considered Lukko may have a bigger responsibility in those discussions than previously thought? Did he leave over Berube becoming coach? The flyer's trade scene has been strangely silent since Lukko's left. Any thoughts?

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

If my memory serves me, at the time of the trade the Flyers need a defensive defenseman. Yandle didn't fit the bill. And still doesn't. 

 

I don't see why everyone is so in love with Yandle.  Everyone hated Carle and Yandle is the same type of player.

[doom88]

If my memory serves me, at the time of the trade the Flyers need a defensive defenseman. Yandle didn't fit the bill. And still doesn't.

I don't see why everyone is so in love with Yandle. Everyone hated Carle and Yandle is the same type of player.

Thank you voice of reason. Yandle sucks at defending and can only play one side. In hockey, that's usually called a wing. He's also a far cry from a stud defenseman. Some here think Carle and Coburn are bad...look out.

[Vincent05]

@AlaskaFlyerFan@doom88

You guys can think Yandle is another Carle but I rate him higher then Carle. I would rather have Yandle here now and going forward then having Luke and Streit. A defensive defenseman is easier to find then a PPQB or puck moving defenseman. We are stuck with Streit for 4 years at a 35+ contract. I rather give that money to Yandle who is alot younger.

We will be looking for another puck moving defenseman after this year if Timonen retires. I don't trust Streit being healthy for a whole season if he is relied upon to carry this defense. The young defensemen we have drafted the past few years will not be able to help for another 5 years or so. So we will be back to searching for that defenseman yet again. JMO

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

@AlaskaFlyerFan@doom88

You guys can think Yandle is another Carle but I rate him higher then Carle. I would rather have Yandle here now and going forward then having Luke and Streit. A defensive defenseman is easier to find then a PPQB or puck moving defenseman. We are stuck with Streit for 4 years at a 35+ contract. I rather give that money to Yandle who is alot younger.

We will be looking for another puck moving defenseman after this year if Timonen retires. I don't trust Streit being healthy for a whole season if he is relied upon to carry this defense. The young defensemen we have drafted the past few years will not be able to help for another 5 years or so. So we will be back to searching for that defenseman yet again. JMO

@Vincent05,

I've argued this before and don't care to do it again. You can read it for yourself here:

http://www.hockeyforums.net/index.php/topic/52463-bummed-on-yandle/?hl=yandle

At the time of the JVR-Schenn trade, the NEED was a defensive defenseman, not a puck mover. It was expected that Carle would be resigned.

[Mad Dog]

Thank you voice of reason. Yandle sucks at defending and can only play one side. In hockey, that's usually called a wing. He's also a far cry from a stud defenseman. Some here think Carle and Coburn are bad...look out.

 

And Luke Schenn REALLY excels at defending...  At least Yandle does well in one area on the ice.  Schenn is a total waste.

 

This trade has been nothing but a big joke.  Homer might have as well just handed JVR over to Toronto for nothing in return; the outcome would not be much different.

[Vincent05]

@Vincent05,I've argued this before and don't care to do it again. You can read it for yourself here:http://www.hockeyforums.net/index.php/topic/52463-bummed-on-yandle/?hl=yandleAt the time of the JVR-Schenn trade, the NEED was a defensive defenseman, not a puck mover. It was expected that Carle would be resigned.

I get that you have the two as a same player. But honestly if you had the two trade on the table, you would take Luke over Yandle? I don't hate Luke, I do hope he turns it around soon. But value wise at the time you must be nuts to not take Yandle over Luke. We can't do nothing about it now, our defense looks like crap next year if Timonen retires.

[murraycraven]

Schenn is not that good but Yandle is way overrated. People complain about our defenseman turning over the puck now... Yandle is a turnover machine and nowhere near an elite defenseman. A nice #3 but nothing more...

The only guy I want from the yotes is OEL.

Like all trades hindsight is 20 20... Most folks on here were not upset about the trade when it happened. It turned out to be a bad trade but Yandle is not a cornerstone #1 dman.

Edited January 6, 2014 by murraycraven

[murraycraven]

@Vincent05,

I've argued this before and don't care to do it again. You can read it for yourself here:

http://www.hockeyforums.net/index.php/topic/52463-bummed-on-yandle/?hl=yandle

At the time of the JVR-Schenn trade, the NEED was a defensive defenseman, not a puck mover. It was expected that Carle would be resigned.

Well said AK...

[doom88]

And Luke Schenn REALLY excels at defending... At least Yandle does well in one area on the ice. Schenn is a total waste.

This trade has been nothing but a big joke. Homer might have as well just handed JVR over to Toronto for nothing in return; the outcome would not be much different.

Luke isn't nearly as bad as some make him out to be. He's in the NHL for a reason. Let's see where his future goes with Berube and an eventual full off season. Luke has been inconsistent, but does show he can play at this level. What he really needs now are a consistent system to learn (check with Berube, though it won't take hold until training camp 2014), and a consistent defensive partner. Good pairs know where the other is and will be without having to look. Chemistry and consistency are important. Luke hasn't had that in Philly yet, how can anyone reasonably expect him to play like a stud?

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

I get that you have the two as a same player. But honestly if you had the two trade on the table, you would take Luke over Yandle? I don't hate Luke, I do hope he turns it around soon. But value wise at the time you must be nuts to not take Yandle over Luke. We can't do nothing about it now, our defense looks like crap next year if Timonen retires.

@Vincent05,

I really don't think Yandle was on the table. If he was, Phoenix would have wanted more than just JVR. At the time, JVR was not playing as well as he is now.

When I look at Schenn's stats from his time in Toronto, he looks now like he is on par with those totals. Assists are lacking a little but everything else looks on par.  Schenn was highly touted as a big, physical defensive defenseman when he was a Leaf.  I think he is the same caliber player that he was in Toronto. 

 

I think the Flyers got exactly what they were looking for in Schenn.  Flyers fans want him to be someone else.

Edited January 6, 2014 by AlaskaFlyerFan

[jammer2]

Luke isn't nearly as bad as some make him out to be. He's in the NHL for a reason. Let's see where his future goes with Berube and an eventual full off season. Luke has been inconsistent, but does show he can play at this level. What he really needs now are a consistent system to learn (check with Berube, though it won't take hold until training camp 2014), and a consistent defensive partner. Good pairs know where the other is and will be without having to look. Chemistry and consistency are important. Luke hasn't had that in Philly yet, how can anyone reasonably expect him to play like a stud?

 Hopefully, Berube can teach him how to skate. There is no way to spin Luke into something positive, he's a slow plodding poor decision maker, and always will be.

[jammer2]

   4 years ago, Yandle had 59 pts and was a plus 12, year before that a plus 16, for a low scoring Yotes team. I don't think he is great in his own end or anything, but the plus of his offense makes up for the defensive liabilities. I'd take him any day over Luke.

 

 http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=87906

[doom88]

Hopefully, Berube can teach him how to skate. There is no way to spin Luke into something positive, he's a slow plodding poor decision maker, and always will be.

Some used to say the same about Couturier. He worked on it and improved. Why can't Luke? Decision making comes with experience. I'm suggesting patience.

[radoran]

Some used to say the same about Couturier. He worked on it and improved. Why can't Luke? Decision making comes with experience. I'm suggesting patience.

 

He's signed at $3.6 cap hit for the next three seasons which is both a reason to have patience and a potentially attractive situation to the right trading partner.

 

I have no problem with Schenn as a 3/4.

 

A potential problem is that Grossmann fills pretty much exactly the same role.

 

To the thread topic, the point that picking up Yandle makes the Streit move unnecessary is a good one. Again, with Grossmann, Schenn is somewhat superfluous. The hole that Carle left would have been nicely filled by Yandle.

[aziz]

I think the Flyers got exactly what they were looking for in Schenn.  Flyers fans want him to be someone else.

 

i was silently agreeing with you through this thread, but i can't go with you here.  the flyers, imo, hoped that a change of scenery would kick l schenn into developing into the 1st pair uber dman he was projected to become when he was drafted 5th overall.  he was supposed to be an utterly reliable complete-shutdown guy with a significant offensive side to his game way back then.  

 

you trade a young potential 30+ goal winger with a questionable attitude for a young potential cornerstone franchise dman with a questionable attitude.  when the trade happened, i saw that as holmgren's logic and was ok with it.  if the luke schenn we see now is what holmgren was hoping for, though...that's a problem.  you don't trade a young 30+ goal potential winger with a questionable attitude for an offensively useless 3rd pair dman who has the worst +/- of any dman on your team despite comparatively limited icetime.

 

schenn is still young, he still had learning and development to go, but it is increasingly hard to see him as even having the raw tools to come close to his draft day projections.  if holmgren was hoping for something from schenn that hasn't shown up yet, then i get the trade and figure prospects are a gamble and sometimes you lose.  if holmgren knew he was getting a guy who, let's face it, was as brutal as schenn has been in philly, that bumps up against being as bad as the bryzgalov deal.  like him or not, JVR had talent and it was apparent there was more to his game than he'd learned to channel as of the date of the trade.  he was worth WAY more than what schenn has brought to the team.

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

i was silently agreeing with you through this thread, but i can't go with you here.  the flyers, imo, hoped that a change of scenery would kick l schenn into developing into the 1st pair uber dman he was projected to become when he was drafted 5th overall.  he was supposed to be an utterly reliable complete-shutdown guy with a significant offensive side to his game way back then.  

 

you trade a young potential 30+ goal winger with a questionable attitude for a young potential cornerstone franchise dman with a questionable attitude.  when the trade happened, i saw that as holmgren's logic and was ok with it.  if the luke schenn we see now is what holmgren was hoping for, though...that's a problem.  you don't trade a young 30+ goal potential winger with a questionable attitude for an offensively useless 3rd pair dman who has the worst +/- of any dman on your team despite comparatively limited icetime.

 

schenn is still young, he still had learning and development to go, but it is increasingly hard to see him as even having the raw tools to come close to his draft day projections.  if holmgren was hoping for something from schenn that hasn't shown up yet, then i get the trade and figure prospects are a gamble and sometimes you lose.  if holmgren knew he was getting a guy who, let's face it, was as brutal as schenn has been in philly, that bumps up against being as bad as the bryzgalov deal.  like him or not, JVR had talent and it was apparent there was more to his game than he'd learned to channel as of the date of the trade.  he was worth WAY more than what schenn has brought to the team.

@aziz,

Of course you expect a player to develop and become better. That is a given. And I totally agree with your statement about trades being a gamble. Add draft picks to that, too.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not defending Homer in any way for this trade.

Maybe he didn't see JVR turning into the player he is today. Maybe he thought Schenn would develop into a #1 or 2 D-man. But if he thought that, why would he sign Weber to the huge offer sheet?

Let me refine the first part of my previous statement. The Flyers got what they were looking for in Schenn...a physical defensive defenseman. They didn't get the development that was/is expected. At least not yet.

[doom88]

I agree with that

[King Knut]

Homer is an idiot and the flyers hate having American players. Always have.

There's an argument to be made that homer wanted a defensively minded d man and not a puck mover.

There's also a severely strong question in my mind as to why ghettoes would have been willing to part with Yandle.

I he's half as good as this article and you suggest, trading him for JVR would be a bit ludicrous even now as a puck moving defenseman is one of the most valuable players in this league. More valuable even than a 30 goal scorer probably. And at this poi t JVR looked to be just about a bust.

Which is all not to say that homer isn't an idiot. He is. There maybe just be more to this than we think at first glance.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nhl/story/2014-01-05/keith-yandle-flyers-us-olympic-hockey-team-roster-snubs

The Luke Schenn-James van Riemsdyk trade seemed like a bad one for the Philadelphia Flyers when it happened. After a season and a half, it looks even worse — van Riemsdyk is an Olympian for the Toronto Maple Leafs, and deservedly so. Schenn has regressed.

On Sunday, it actually got a little worse for Philly. General manager Paul Holmgren turned down a trade that would've sent van Riemsdyk to the Phoenix Coyotes for defenseman Keith Yandle a few hours before pulling the trigger on Schenn-JVR, according to CSN Philly's Tim Panaccio. Discussions between the two teams were reported at the time, but this is the first time we've seen it in such uncertain terms: the Flyers could've had Yandle, and said no thanks.

The Coyotes' Keith Yandle (AP Photo)

MORE: Lessons from the Bobby Ryan saga

The reason it came up: Yandle, surprisingly, missed out on the U.S. Olympic team. He's an elite puck-mover, but USA Hockey had concerns over his perceived high-risk style and suitability on the top four. He also can only play on the left side. Holmgren, by the way, helped choose the team.

From Scott Burnside's all-access piece on the selection process:

"It's not that he wouldn't be on the power play if he were on the team," (former Flyers coach Peter) Laviolette says. "But the risk in his game seems to be more than Dan's willing to take or wants to take with that type of player," he adds referring to head coach Dan Bylsma.

One fan: L.A. Kings coach Dean Lombardi, who wrote what was referred to as "The Yandle Manifesto" in the piece. It was funny.

"Yandle is clearly the only guy that I would consider for this team. I started this trying to figure out why the kid isn't basically amongst the top six," Lombardi says.

Because the central knock on Yandle is that he's not responsible enough defensively, Lombardi says he focused on situations in which this might be revealed in Yandle's game and how the same assessment might be applied to the other candidates.

There is no question, he says, that Yandle is the superior puck-mover and uses a combination of superior skating and passing ability to move the puck quickly up the rink.

He is the highest-scoring American defenseman over the past four years, Lombardi points out.

"Why are we discounting this kid?" he asks. If they use the theory espoused by some that inclusion should be based on current level of play and body of work, "This kid's right up there with Duncan Keith in terms of points over the past four years."

In any case, Yandle isn't on Team USA — or the Philadelphia Flyers.

If that is true, Homer is a IDIOT. We then didn't need to sign Streit.

[King Knut]

Do we assume that homer had visions of suter and parise dancing in his head at this point?

Thus eliminating the need for the sort o puck mover that yandle was and a 20 goal scorer (let's be honest, JVR looked like crap that year, so this talk about 30 goals per year is unfounded. He wasn't playi g like that).

Perhaps in Homer's mind he setting the table for parise on the wing, suter in a pairing with Luke.

Which sounds pretty good actually.

Also sounds impossible to anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of math.

I'm sure homer did succeed in helping make the wild pay a bit more for a couple of American bums he probably would have traded eventually anyway.

Sometimes I think homer doesn't know what he's doing. Other times I hunk he does and he's just secretly working for other teams.

@aziz,

Of course you expect a player to develop and become better. That is a given. And I totally agree with your statement about trades being a gamble. Add draft picks to that, too.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not defending Homer in any way for this trade.

Maybe he didn't see JVR turning into the player he is today. Maybe he thought Schenn would develop into a #1 or 2 D-man. But if he thought that, why would he sign Weber to the huge offer sheet?

Let me refine the first part of my previous statement. The Flyers got what they were looking for in Schenn...a physical defensive defenseman. They didn't get the development that was/is expected. At least not yet.

[radoran]

I am curious how a player who scored 21 in his second year in the league and was "on pace" for that again (11 in 43) before injury "looked to be just about a bust."

 

I he's half as good as this article and you suggest, trading him for JVR would be a bit ludicrous even now as a puck moving defenseman is one of the most valuable players in this league. More valuable even than a 30 goal scorer probably. And at this poi t JVR looked to be just about a bust.