Trades

[Howie58]

 What should be blown up is this revolving door "old guy with long contract" idea that Holmgren thinks is a winning formula, yet hasn't worked EVER for us. I won't go into detail about all the "off into the sunset" type this team has acquired over the years but did anybody honestly think the Streit and LeCavalier signings would end any better than the Briere and Pronger ones did? The good thing is we didn't give up 4 first rounders for Streit. The bad thing is their buyouts aren't going to magically disappear from the cap this time.. Yes LeCavalier plays well (when he isn't hurt). Neither of them signed for a year or two though. Picture them 4 years from now....OUCH!

 

 As for Nashville and Pittsburghs drafts...

 

 Nashville has done a fine job of drafting Dmen and a goalie. But they've got the saddest collection of forwards of ANY NHL team. I thought they'd finally get one last year and Seth Jones falls into their lap. They don't have a single impact player from their last 9 drafts (other than Jones) and have traded away several of their first round picks.  

 

 Shero took over a team that had 4-top 2 picks and a 5th overall. His first draft he picked Jordan Staal over Jonathan Toews. He doesn't have a SINGLE impact draft pick since then. Not one. He has some nice prospects in Maatta, Pouliot, Despres, Bennett and Jarry. But the reality is he's a good gm who's a "great" gm cause he inherited Crosby and Malkin, arguably the two best players in the entire world. And he's won one cup with them in 7 years.

 

 In the same timeframe Philly has drafted Giroux, JVR, Sbisa, Couturier, Laughton, Stolarz, Ghost, Morin and Hagg. And that's while trading away most of his first and second rounders. I honestly don't see one gm stand out over another draft-wise here. Holmgren has traded away more picks, but still has basically the same quality.

FC:

 

I can't argue your facts. The reality of our LTC/NTC is strange. It might be helpful for all of us to assess Flyers' history from 2004 onward.  Our overall track record is very high in terms of winning percentage. But I suspect that was built in the good old days prior to cap.  The inconsistency of our team since the lost season brings a lot into focus--your issues regarding old fart, long-term contracts, forward-obsessed drafting (maybe Nashville is d-g obsessed), etc. 

 

Peace,

 

Howie

[radoran]

I'm talking about the cup run with the Flyers.

 

Gotcha, sorry.

 

Yeah, Richards managed just a goal and an assist (on one of Gagne's two goals). Carter had an assist (on that same Gagne goal) and an empty-netter.

 

I'd raise the issue of the gentleman who thought so highly of the two players that he extended them for nine and 15 years, but I wouldn't want you to think I was piling on Homer all the time...

[flyercanuck]

@radoran

 

Wasn't that the run where both Richards shoulders were done by the final? I doubt they got that way by going along for the ride. And I'd bet they were a huge factor in his limited output.

[Mad Dog]

It might be helpful for all of us to assess Flyers' history from 2004 onward.  Our overall track record is very high in terms of winning percentage. But I suspect that was built in the good old days prior to cap.  The inconsistency of our team since the lost season brings a lot into focus--your issues regarding old fart, long-term contracts, forward-obsessed drafting (maybe Nashville is d-g obsessed), etc. 

 

 

 

You are bringing up something interesting, Howie. I don't have these sorts of stats in front of me, but I would be willing to bet our winning percentage in post-Lindros era is really not that impressive. The year the Hitch's Flyers went to the semis and lost to Tampa was probably an outlier. Most of what I remember over the last 10-12 years is tons of frustration, unrealized expectations, one head coach fired after another, and endless excuses coming out of Snider’s mouth.

 

And that's what really makes me clutch my teeth in anger. After decades of futility, this old puke Snider has audacity to seat there and tell the city that his culture is fine and doesn't need any changing. Oh really? What culture is that? A losing one? Yepper......

[radoran]

@radoran

 

Wasn't that the run where both Richards shoulders were done by the final?

 

A great example of stats not telling the whole story.

[pilldoc]

You are bringing up something interesting, Howie. I don't have these sorts of stats in front of me, but I would be willing to bet our winning percentage in post-Lindros era is really not that impressive. The year the Hitch's Flyers went to the semis and lost to Tampa was probably an outlier. Most of what I remember over the last 10-12 years is tons of frustration, unrealized expectations, one head coach fired after another, and endless excuses coming out of Snider’s mouth.

 

 

 

And that's what really makes me clutch my teeth in anger. After decades of futility, this old puke Snider has audacity to seat there and tell the city that his culture is fine and doesn't need any changing. Oh really? What culture is that? A losing one? Yepper......

It is a great point.  IMO, current management never learned how to deal/work with a Salary Cap.  There is a fundamental flaw here......

[Howie58]

You are bringing up something interesting, Howie. I don't have these sorts of stats in front of me, but I would be willing to bet our winning percentage in post-Lindros era is really not that impressive. The year the Hitch's Flyers went to the semis and lost to Tampa was probably an outlier. Most of what I remember over the last 10-12 years is tons of frustration, unrealized expectations, one head coach fired after another, and endless excuses coming out of Snider’s mouth.

 

 

 

And that's what really makes me clutch my teeth in anger. After decades of futility, this old puke Snider has audacity to seat there and tell the city that his culture is fine and doesn't need any changing. Oh really? What culture is that? A losing one? Yepper......

MadDog:

 

I've said this before and shout it from the hills. I think all teams, not just the Flyers, should probably be tracked from the Cap forward. In the old days, Philly, Boston, Montreal, Pittsburgh, NYI, and Edmonton were the perennial SC contenders.  I don't think we've had a repeat champ since the lost year.  I should do homework and see what the percentage is from '04 on.  My sense is that it would be lower than our "old" history, and would certainly have a lot of contrast, with the worst season in history followed-up by the ECF.  

 

Peace,

 

Howie

[brelic]

I don't have these sorts of stats in front of me, but I would be willing to bet our winning percentage in post-Lindros era is really not that impressive.

Here's a quick chart of winning percentage since 1997-98.

The trend is downward since that time (the green line).

[pilldoc]

MadDog:

 

I've said this before and shout it from the hills. I think all teams, not just the Flyers, should probably be tracked from the Cap forward. In the old days, Philly, Boston, Montreal, Pittsburgh, NYI, and Edmonton were the perennial SC contenders.  I don't think we've had a repeat champ since the lost year.  I should do homework and see what the percentage is from '04 on.  My sense is that it would be lower than our "old" history, and would certainly have a lot of contrast, with the worst season in history followed-up by the ECF.  

 

Peace,

 

Howie

Here you go Howie......

 

The 2008 and 20009 seasons had Detroit and Pittsburgh in back to back season, with each winning once.

The 2010 and 2013 seasons were won by Chicago.

Boston won in 2011 and lost in 2013

 

That is as close to back to back as you get.

 

Teams in Stanley Cup Finals since 2004:

• Tampa Bay (Win) 2004
• Calgary
• Carolina (Win) 2006
• Edmonton
• Anaheim(Win) 2007
• Ottawa
• Detroit x2 (1 Win) 2008
• Pittsburgh x2 (1 Win) 2009
• Chicago x2 (2 Wins) 2010 / 2013
• Philadelphia
• Boston x2 (1 Win) 2011
• Vancouver
• LA Kings (Win) 2012
• NJ Devils

Edited December 17, 2013 by pilldoc

[Howie58]

Pill:

 

Thanks for the research...I guess it is an indicator of greater parity. There is no Four-Bagger per Pitts or Islanders...I guess Pitt, Chicago, and Detroit are the Elite Three. Relatively speaking, we are far below our historical norms.  I am 55 years old and remember the Cup years very fondly. But I understand that was a very different era.  I'd go a step further--the team that replaced us at the top of the heap--the Islanders--was the bridge to the future.  Our Cup teams resembled the '67 Leafs.  Maybe we haven't learned our history. 

 

Peace,

Howie

[Howie58]

Here's a quick chart of winning percentage since 1997-98.

The trend is downward since that time (the green line).

winpct.PNG

Brelic:  What it says it what we would expect. There is a downward trend with an increasing standard deviation.  I think our post-'04 performance is a study of contrasts between and within seasons. Per comments on the rest of the thread, I think we need to separate pre- and post-Cap history for the franchise, if not the league. 

 

Howie

[brelic]

with an increasing standard deviation.

Exactly... the two best years and three worst years are all post-cap. THere's a lot of stuff packed in there, including a GM change, three coaching changes, and total roster turnover.

But in a nutshell, post-cap is indicative of a team in transition. We see that on the ice, we see that in the standings.

I just don't have time to plot these things out league-wide, but I'm sure it already exists on a site somewhere.

[Mad Dog]

@brelic

 

Thanks for the chart, Bre. Yeah, there is a clear reducing trend in winning percentage, albeit a not well-pronounced.

 

I think everybody who has followed the team long enough would agree that the Flyers had more failures than successes in the post-cap era. I truly believe that Paul Holmgren is just not the right man for the job. Granted, Snider's interference to the extent almost unheard of does not help, and that's the only reason I am giving Homer at least partial out, but the fact of the matter is, he is really not well equipped to operate in a capped league. There are panicky moves, the moves that frankly make no sense.

 

I am not going to grill him for Bryz’ move since that was Snider’s pulling the trigger.  But please tell me how any of these moves – not necessarily in any order – is anything but an indication of your GM not having a first damn clue what he is doing:

 

- Signing Bruno Gervais for 2 years ($1.65 mil)

 

- Signing Timonen for one year ($6 mil)

 

- Signing Jody Shelley (yeah, Jody Stinking Shelley) for 3-years, $3.3 mil (I still cringe when even typing this)

 

- Signing Streit for 4 Years, $21 mil

 

- Trading Bob to the Jackets for a 2nd round pick and 4th round pick

 

- Trading JVR for Luke Schenn

 

-  Trading the 27th overall pick in the 2008 for Steve Eminger and Jacob Deserres

 

- Placing all the stock on signing Parise and Suter, missing on both, while having no Plan B

 

- Letting Carle walk while not having a good plan on how to address the much-needed D

 

- Bringing in Hal Gill - not that it's a detrimental acquisition, but what exactly was the point?  What did he try to acheive exactly by that deal??

 

There were some good trades, too.  I don’t want to leave out the fact that he acquired Marty Biron and Coburn during that abysmal 2006-07 season, then turned Forsberg into Upshall, Parent, Timonen and Hartnell.  OK, but when you have so much cash freed up and know that Forsberg was going to be lost anyway, you better make some trades that make sense. 

 

I am honestly sick of Holmgren.  But Snider’s impatience and living in denial is what fuels Homer’s horrendous moves. I want to see both gone and a new owner walking in with fresh perspectives and open mind.  Never going to happen, though, while Snider is alive…

[Howie58]

Greetings:

 

Sadly, I think Snider's influence will be felt for years to come. I am also a tad queasy about Hextall. Is he really the "new" face we need?  

 

This franchise's mindset is wedded to "Old Style" hockey. The fans who cheer the fights and cheap penalties don't help. 

 

Peace,

Howie

[flyercanuck]

A great example of stats not telling the whole story.

 

Richards career is a great example. The reason he was done in the finals was he left everything he had on the ice for 3 rounds prior. And for a guy his size he played a very physical game.

[King Knut]

People like to say that Chicago was a better team, and I think that's true since they won, but the reality is, better team or not, the flyers still could have won with a half decent (or maybe even just a healthy) goalie.

A healthy Razor that season would have changes an awful lot for that team.

Essentially, better team or not, the Blackhawks won because Leighton hurt his back and didn't tell anyone he couldn't play the position after game 1.

I think they could have won, but I wouldn't say likely. The fact that they were even in the POs, let alone the cup, was a fluke. But they were within a game, so I wouldn't say it's impossible. It's certainly very possible. Likely? I dunno. I think Chicago was simply a better team. Plus, our big names (up front at least) were totally sh!tting the bed in that series. Richards, Carter, and Gagne really slowed down that series.

[King Knut]

Double post deletedo

Edited December 18, 2013 by King Knut

[Mad Dog]

Richards career is a great example. The reason he was done in the finals was he left everything he had on the ice for 3 rounds prior. And for a guy his size he played a very physical game.

 

I agree with that.  Despite all his imperfections and criticism that was directed at him (some of which was warranted), he really sacrificed his body. For obvious reason, I no longer see him as much as when he was playing in Philly, but I said it many times that he played the game of a prototypical power forward not having a body of a power forward.  He is not built the way Lucic, Getzlaf, Ryan Clowe, or LeClair are, yet he played with the same tenacity and took punishment in front of the net.  I said it many times taht if was to continue sacrificing his body the way he did, he owudln't have a body for much longer.

 

He asserted himself similar to Corey Perry and I really marvel at how Perry managed to stay healthy for the most part of his career so far.

[fanaticV3.0]

Gotcha, sorry.

 

Yeah, Richards managed just a goal and an assist (on one of Gagne's two goals). Carter had an assist (on that same Gagne goal) and an empty-netter.

 

I'd raise the issue of the gentleman who thought so highly of the two players that he extended them for nine and 15 years, but I wouldn't want you to think I was piling on Homer all the time...

 

Go ahead. I'll join you. Aside from normal wear and tear and decrease productivity over time, signing a guy that long is just moronic. A career can end at any given moment, it's a physical sport.

[fanaticV3.0]

People like to say that Chicago was a better team, and I think that's true since they won, but the reality is, better team or not, the flyers still could have won with a half decent (or maybe even just a healthy) goalie.

A healthy Razor that season would have changes an awful lot for that team.

Essentially, better team or not, the Blackhawks won because Leighton hurt his back and didn't tell anyone he couldn't play the position after game 1.

 

 

I don't blame one man for a team's failure to win the cup. He can be a part of the problem, but never the only or even the biggest problem. Like I was just saying to rad, their big three's production took a big hit in the finals. They could have certainly helped the team a lot more than they did. And let's not forget that team being in the cup was a bit of a fluke to begin with. I'm not saying a better goalie couldn't have helped, just that Leighton wasn't the only reason they didn't win.

Edited December 18, 2013 by fanaticV3.0

[jammer2]

  Some excellent thoughts in this thread. It only solidified what I already knew....if this team is *ever* going to amount to anything, we need a GM with a clear vision of how to build a team....not some fly by the seat of your pants idiot who has no clue how to manage a cap.