Neal suspended 5 games

[Polaris922]

(Insert word here)

[ruxpin]

Then that's where we'll remain opposed. I think if you take Neal out of the equation and say that was someone you don't already despise... Say Logan Couture, your judgement would be different for the same incident.

Maybe it's my job that does it, but I spend a lot of time evaluating actions, intent, and outcome. A man was attacked from behind, knocked to the ground, pummeled in the face and hauled to the hospital on a stretcher. In Pennsylvania courts, even here in Pittsburgh, thats a period of incarceration. a knee to the head is a simple assault reduced to harassment in court as there was no injury, and a monetary fine gets assessed with a lecture not to do it again. How anyone can see the pummeling as a lesser offense than a knee to the head that the victim stayed in the game after is just beyond me.

 

Grr.  I say I'm going to let you have the last word, but then you bring up a question/point worth addressing!  

 

If it's Logan Couture, doubt creeps into the mind whether the knee was intentional.    But in your line of work, what if it's an M1 offense by someone you know has a reputation, if not a record, for such actions?  Whether officially or not, does it not creep into your judgment of it?

 

And let's not exaggerate the pummeling.  It was two, possibly a third (glancing) rabbit punches with the glove on.  Yes, the slew foot gets a game or two.   The two punches ordinarily get you nothing except that Orpik was either already in trouble from the fall or one of the punches got the head hitting the ice.  If people were suspended for 20 games every time they punch someone with the gloves on there would be a hell of a lot of suspended players.  

 

This was made worse by Orpik coming up injured.   I understand--and pointed out myself--that a DUI becomes much worse when there's a death as a result, or even just an injury.   So I get the vastly increased suspension.  I would applaud a 20+ game suspension.

 

But act vs. act, the deliberate knee to the head is far worse and far more unusual (IMO).  The only real unusual part about the Thornton thing was the injury.

[flyerrod]

@Polaris922

 

No one here on this board (me included) is giving Thornton a pass. My post about him getting a lighter sentence because it was only a Penguin was meant to be over the top ludicrous. I think everyone here expects him to get no less than 15 games for his offense( which he has earned and then some).

[ruxpin]

Now, quit asking good questions / making good points so I can shut the hell up!

[Polaris922]

@flyerrod

I didn't doubt that for a minute! Just shocked at the perception of the knee being a greater offense.

@ruxpin

If I ever assault someone I want you as the judge. I'll just hope I didn't knee him.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Polaris922

[ruxpin]

LOL @ polaris922

 

You're alright. .  I'll be your lawyer.  (I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once).  But yeah, don't knee anyone unless they're carrying skittles

[B21]

It's unfair to Neal to expect him to get out of the way of a guy with a schnozz the size of Marchand's.

 

On a more serious note, I will say that the vitriol being directed towards Neal by Flyers fans is at least equal to that directed toward Crosby when he allegedly jumped McLean off a faceoff a few years ago. Not that Neal doesn't deserve it...her certainly does.  Of course, Thornton deserves more.

 

Now all of a sudden, jumping a guy (let alone jumping a guy from behind) is "not as bad" as Neal's knee to Marchand's head (although you'd think it was judging by what was said about Crosby/McLean a few years ago).  That's some very selective reasoning going on here. 

 

It's time to call a spade a spade...no one poster in particular but as a whole  The worst thing that an NHL player can do seems to be whatever recent misdeed a Pittsburgh Penguin has done.  I'm sure the fact that Rinaldo jumped player earlier in the day (not as bad as Thornton but certainly about as bad as Crosby/McLean) has nothing at all to do with this selective reasoning.  After all, Rinaldo was merely "stupid".

[flyerrod]

Rinaldo was merely "stupid".

No real punches thrown, Opponent turtled after goading him into 7 minutes of PP time for the Stars....Yep...Rinaldo was stupid. See we can agree on something.

[B21]

No real Punches thrown, Opponent turtled after goading getting jumped.  7 minutes of PP time for the Stars....Yep...Rinaldo was stupid a punk. See we can agree on something.

Fixed.

[flyerrod]

Fixed.

I need your address, I have a lovely purse that will match your eye....I figure that you only have one with your myopic Pittsburgh view........

[ruxpin]

  I'm sure the fact that Rinaldo jumped player earlier in the day (not as bad as Thornton but certainly about as bad as Crosby/McLean) has nothing at all to do with this selective reasoning.  After all, Rinaldo was merely "stupid".

 

 

I really haven't the foggiest idea what point you're trying to make.  I really do get what Polaris is saying, I just ultimately weigh the things differently than him.  But Rinaldo?

 

The only difference is:

1) Rinaldo didn't slew foot Roussel

2) Roussel clearly saw him coming and chose not to fight--that's his right by the way, and I have no problem with that.

3) Rinaldo didn't completely blind side him from behind 

4) Rindalo didn't punch his head DOWN to the ice.

 

Oh wait, that's a lot of differences.   Here's another:

Roussel didn't get injured (possibly dumb luck, and probably a lot to do with the above, but still the case).

 

At the end of the day, THAT's the difference we're talking about here.  Because if Orpik doesn't get injured it's unlikely it's more than 2 minutes for roughing  and offset with whatever penalty Neal was getting.  3 of the 4 officials are in the scrum with their back turned to Orpik, but the one ref was behind them both so it's possible the slew foot also gets called.  But that's it.  

 

No one's even defending Thornton.  And certainly not because of some equation to Rinaldo which isn't remotely relevant.   Rinaldo was tremendously stupid.  But you'll notice that nothing other than 27 minutes of penalties (for 4 seconds of work, by the way) came of it despite the fact everyone on the ice (and all 12 people in the stands) saw it.   Because it was stupid (x 10 with exponents) and that's the end of it.  

 

I really don't get what point you're making by constantly bringing that up.  I know it's easy to scream "Flyers fans" but even the Flyers fans are saying 10+, 15, or 20 for Thornton.  What's your point, exactly?

[ruxpin]

By the way, I didn't really have much problem with Crosby on the McLean thing.  Maybe if he did a little more than slap and scratch I might, but I don't know how that's relevant either.

[Polaris922]

Orpik reportedly doesn't remember anything of the game. Just for the record.

[ruxpin]

Orpik reportedly doesn't remember anything of the game. Just for the record.

What game?

[Polaris922]

Who are you?

[flyercanuck]

For the Pens fans seeing this as an affront to their team....

 

 Thornton did something wrong and will be dealt with. Is the 4 and 1 thing I'm hearing about the 4 (at least) intentional headshots Neal has come up for suspension on versus the 1 incident Thornton has ever been up for?

 

 Why is a slew foot by a Bruin so bad but when Sid does it (more than once) it doesn't even register a minor penalty, let alone an attempted murder charge? (and let's leave the murder to the Flyers/Sabres games)

 

 Jumping a guy from behind (when it's a Pen) is a criminal offence. Jumping a guy from behind who's engaged with another player and punching him in the balls (by a Pen) is acceptable and done with impunity. Attacking a guy is a criminal offence. Isn't intentionally targetting heads multiple times? I mean scoring goals, and headshots, are what Neal does.

 

 Why is Neals history of intentionally trying to hit people in the head magically wiped clean, yet Flyer players (that's plural) have their history from junior used against them?

 

 Again, what Thornton did was wrong, but I'll take a gloved punch in the face over an armour plated knee in the head anytime. Speaking from experience. Ditto goes for those elbow pads.

 

 This is a two way street guys.

[ruxpin]

Who are you?

 

We are Borg.  Resistance is futile.

[B21]

@flyercanuck

@ruxpin

 

My point is not at all about Neal's history or Crosby's history.  I am looking at reactions to specific incidents.  Neal's knee to Marchand, Thornton's assault on Orpik and Rinaldo jumping Roussel. 

 

When Crosby allegedly jumped the gun with McLean (or punching Valabik) it was treated as the worst thing a player could do.  I don't recall any Pens fans defending the Valabik incident and the fight with McLean was he said/he said. We took our guy's side. Everyone else (of course) took McLeans. Argument beaten to death but relevant as far as what has been said about them.

 

Now it's a Pittsburgh Pengiun on the receiving end of a significantly worse version of Crosby/McLean or Crosby/Valabik and all of a sudden that type of act is not nearly as bad as what Neal did.  It was "only" a gloved punch.  He didn't hit him "that" hard. Again - what was said about Crosby when those incidents took place (and long after) isn't much different than what's being said about Neal now.

 

In an inronic twist, we have Rinaldo involved in an incident very similar to Crosby/McLean...basically, going after a guy who has declined an invitation to fight and punching him anyway...including a shot to the head while he is down on the ice (in Crosby's case, "not ready" to fight).  Why don't you compare what is being said about Rinaldo to what has been said about Crosby/McLean and then tell me which fans have slid off that two way street?

 

Neal's history isn't relevant to my point. He's a dirty player - no one is disagreeing with that.

 

Since you brought up the slew foot - I didn't even go that route until someone else mentioned it.  I saw it as Orpik being jumped from behind, taken down and punched. I wasn't really focused on how he was taken down. Speaking of slew foots that went unpunished, I give you Steve Downie on Crosby.  You know - that same Steve Downie who is treated soooo unfairly by the league and the same Crosby who is sooooooo protected.

 

 

 

 

 

[mojo1917]

@B21

Perhaps you should try selling Christianity in Yemen.

You would probably have greater success, and feel less exasperation.

People don't like your team , not just Flyers fans, fans of all other teams, embrace it. Tom Brady that ****, pulling examples of how the Flyers goon got owned in Dallas , has no bearing on the actions of your team' s superstar winger. None. There is no correlation.

No one feels sorry for the Patriots , the Pens are the NHL version of the Pats, revel in the role, rather than pull the woe is us routine. No one feels sorry for the Pens.

[flyercanuck]

@B21

 

Normally when a guy gets slew-footed or punched with a gloved hand it doesn't result in injury. Unfortunately for Orpik it did this time. I really disagree with penalizing a player due to the level of injury. If you have a guy like Neal who's been suspended for headshots and got off for headshots and is here doling them out- I have no respect for him. Thornton did something stupid. He doesn't usually do this type of thing. He'll get nailed for it and hopefully learn....something Neal has so obviously NOT done.

 

 I already said my piece about Rinaldo  and am not sticking up for him. If he continues that type of play he'll be riding buses soon enough.

[ruxpin]

Why don't you compare what is being said about Rinaldo to what has been said about Crosby/McLean and then tell me which fans have slid off that two way street?

 

I wasn't aware of what was said about Crosby/McLean and wasn't really in any camp on that.  It was a non-issue for me.  I actually looked at it again on youtube because of this thread, and I honestly don't know what the big deal is there.  I'm gathering from the booth call on that that there must have been some altercation on the previous or very recent play.   To me, it was not really any different than the stuff that went on at faceoffs in the Ottawa/Philly brawl game.  I'm not sure actually what went on prior to the Crosby/Mclean thing, but even standing on its own I don't have a lot of problem with a captain sparking his team.  It honestly looked like no more than a slap fight (which I appreciate is probably a bit insulting to Crosby but the point just being I don't see anything really horrible).

 

My whole point to my long-winded post to you is I don't really see the Rinaldo thing or the Crosby thing being relevant.  It seems the whole point to bringing up either in your case is to try to discredit people who are readily acknowledging Thornton deserves every bit of what he gets--and then some--but feel the Neal incident was actually worse.

 

I get that the Thornton thing happened TO your player whereas the Neal thing was perpetrated BY your player.   But I really have no dog in this pony show.  Oddly, I actually really like the victim in the Thornton thing and think the victim in the Neal thing is a puke.  So, really, if I had a dog, my opinion would be the opposite way.

 

I don't think I'm at all diminishing Thornton by thinking Neal was worse  .  It just indicates that I believe the Neal thing was THAT bad. I'm not arguing, for example, that because Neal got only five that Thornton should get less.  Thornton's case should be punished on its own merit, which to me is in the 20 game ballpark.   I just think Neal got off a bit easy given the nature of the incident and his history and his number of games should be right there with Thornton's.

 

The problem with this, I think, would be the disproportionate punishment this would exact on the teams.  Let's face it, missing 20 games from Thornton--as much as I typically like him; this incident notwithstanding--would effect the Bruins a LOT less than missing a large handful of games (more than ) from Neal would effect the Penguins.   I'm not talking about quality of team here, but rather what these players contribute and their skill set.

 

So, eh, I'm willing to drop it at this point just saying that *I* believe Neal's was worse.  I'm hoping (and I think it's already clear it will be the case) that the league disagrees, because Thornton deserves WELL more than five games.

[B21]

@B21

Perhaps you should try selling Christianity in Yemen.

You would probably have greater success, and feel less exasperation.

People don't like your team , not just Flyers fans, fans of all other teams, embrace it. Tom Brady that ****, pulling examples of how the Flyers goon got owned in Dallas , has no bearing on the actions of your team' s superstar winger. None. There is no correlation.

No one feels sorry for the Patriots , the Pens are the NHL version of the Pats, revel in the role, rather than pull the woe is us routine. No one feels sorry for the Pens.

 

Oh - no doubt about that.  All the more motivation though to point out what I feel is some biased observations about me team.  We all do it.

[B21]

@B21

 

Normally when a guy gets slew-footed or punched with a gloved hand it doesn't result in injury. Unfortunately for Orpik it did this time. I really disagree with penalizing a player due to the level of injury. If you have a guy like Neal who's been suspended for headshots and got off for headshots and is here doling them out- I have no respect for him. Thornton did something stupid. He doesn't usually do this type of thing. He'll get nailed for it and hopefully learn....something Neal has so obviously NOT done.

 

 I already said my piece about Rinaldo  and am not sticking up for him. If he continues that type of play he'll be riding buses soon enough.

 

We agree on that - any injury (or lack of) should not impact the penalty though we know it does from time to time.  Neal got 5 with technically no "admissable" priors and Marchand was fine.  I can say that if Orpik was shaken up and later returned to the game, I'd not feel any differently. But again - I'm trying to debate that point.  FWIW, Orpik does not even remember the game so gloved hand or not, Thornton hit him pretty hard.

 

I am pointing out how players can be involved in very similar incidents yet the color of the jersey seems to be a factor for some in determining how bad that incident was.  Again...Crosby jumpts a guy and he's Satan reincarnated.  Rinaldo does it an he's "stupid".  Crosby comes at a guy from behind (that punch was also gloved) and he's the worst thing to ever happen to the game.  Someone jumps Orpik from behind (and then some) and he didn't hit him that hard and but it was a gloved punch.

 

Sorry, FC - but those are biased assessment of what took place.

[B21]

@ruxpin

 

Sorry if it seemed like I was directing this at you.  We disagree a few aspects of this whole fiasco but you are by no means biased in your opinions.

 

The point I was trying to make is in my most recent post to FC.

 

Let me say it this way....when it happened, Crosby/McLean and Crosby/Valabik was seen by Flyers fans as a 10 on a scale of 1 to 10 as far as how "bad" they were.  Just basing that on the comments posted at the time.  Now Neal is a 10 but a worse "version" of Crosby/McLean and Crosby/Valabik (jumping a guy) is maybe an 8 and an equal "version" (Rinaldo) is a 6.

 

Like I said - it's seems that whatever bad incident involving a Penguin is the flavor of the month as far as what is the worst thing an NHL player can do. 

 

We disagree on which is worse - Neal or Thornton.  But in your case, it's an honest opinion and not based on the color of the jerseys.

Edited December 10, 2013 by B21

[flyercanuck]

We agree on that - any injury (or lack of) should not impact the penalty though we know it does from time to time.  Neal got 5 with technically no "admissable" priors and Marchand was fine.  I can say that if Orpik was shaken up and later returned to the game, I'd not feel any differently. But again - I'm trying to debate that point.  FWIW, Orpik does not even remember the game so gloved hand or not, Thornton hit him pretty hard.

 

I am pointing out how players can be involved in very similar incidents yet the color of the jersey seems to be a factor for some in determining how bad that incident was.  Again...Crosby jumpts a guy and he's Satan reincarnated.  Rinaldo does it an he's "stupid".  Crosby comes at a guy from behind (that punch was also gloved) and he's the worst thing to ever happen to the game.  Someone jumps Orpik from behind (and then some) and he didn't hit him that hard and but it was a gloved punch.

 

Sorry, FC - but those are biased assessment of what took place.

 

And so will the outcome be. It's why people who aren't Pen fans are the way they are. They watch Crosby and Malkin pull their crap and the league looks the other way. Neal joins the team and can make up some bs story that anyone who's NOT a Pens fan just laughs at and he gets a slap on the wrist. Then the next time he does it his history doesn't count. Heck Malkin dopesn't have a history cause the league refuses to give him one. Meanwhile guys like Downie and Rinaldo have their histories follow them from ANOTHER league. I mean have you ever heard them say "We're not going to throw the book at Steve Downie cause his previous history is irrellevant here?"