Yet another Sean Couturier thread

[JackStraw]

That's kinda funny coming from the guy saying he will be fine despite his regression on the offensive side of things.

 

You do understand what an opinion is right? (that's a question). And you still haven't asked me a question, except to ask me if I run away from conversations, etc..., which I assume has been answered by the fact that I'm still here.

 

So, do you actually want to ask me a question that's relevant to the thread topic or are you just trying to be an irritant?

[fanaticV3.0]

Gabriel Landeskog went 2nd overall in that draft. Great player, captain of his team, same age as Couturier. Over the 2+ years of playing in the NHL he's scored a grand total of 20 goals and 18 assists more than Couturier. That's approximately .1 goals and assists per game more.

 

Let's be realistic though.That's hardly proof that Couturier is guaranteed to get better. There are countless players who are drafted with high expectations and don't meet them.

[radoran]

He's showing progress defensively and others areas that can't be measured statistically, but I agree he's not a "shutdown center" yet. I would just say, "Looks good, hope he keeps it up, let's not jump the gun yet" as far as this aspect of his play goes.

 

As far as his offense goes, .35 to .33 is practically nonexistent, but when he follows that up with a .21 ppg then we have a problem. If he ends up scoring at a rate of either of those first two years, I'm not bothered. But given the regression again, I'd be lying if I said there aren't some concerns with his offensive game.

 

True, but Giroux's down to .57 ppg which is lower than he's been in four years so I think we need to take the early part of this season with a grain of salt (or a shaker of salt) and see how they progress going forward.

 

Like many, I'd prefer to give him the chance to develop here rather than deciding he "needs a change of scenery" to reach his potential... Not an untouchable by any stretch.

 

Maybe, maybe not. I think Malkin got a bunch of points in one game, and I don't remember him being involved in many big goals. Usually he's a guy that can change the course of a game, I don't remember him doing that in that series. That said, Malkin is (imo) the most talented player in the world. Nobody is going to shut him down for real.

 

Malkin had no points in Game 1, two each in 2 and 3, 3 in game 4, none in 5 (PIT W) and the lone Pens goal in the deciding game.

 

He had the first Pens goal in Game 4 (facing elimination) and assisted on the game-tying third before the Pens blew it open in the second period. He added a garbage goal in the third.

 

Half his points *did* come on the PP in that series, tho...

[JackStraw]

@radoran - I guess that sounds more or less like what I remember. At least, that's my story now and I'm sticking to it.

[flyercanuck]

Let's be realistic though.That's hardly proof that Couturier is guaranteed to get better. There are countless players who are drafted with high expectations and don't meet them.

 

Sure. But you don't hear people complaining about Landeskogs paltry .1 per game point total over Sean Couturier....because they're only 20 years old. Claude Giroux, our most offensively gifted player only put up 27 points as a 20 year old in the NHL.

[fanaticV3.0]

do you not see that the entire team has taken a significant step backwards this season, and that gives at least some context to couturier's drop off?  i said it in another thread, but the exact same argument can be made about voracek.  giroux's points pace is way down.  everyone's point pace is way down.  are the all regressing, or might the collective offensive ineptitude have a ripple effect through everyone's stat sheet, and thus say a little less about a given player's career than you are making it out to say?

 

He has 4 goals in his last 65 games. This has been going on for a while now. Longer than just this season.

 

Not to mention, he's pretty much the only forward without a goal at this point. I'm not counting Downie because he's barely played and we all know those guys on the 4th line are not worth anything offensively. He's 7th on the team in ice time. 3rd amongst forwards. He gets more ice time than Voracek, LeCalvier, Hartnell, Simmonds, and Schenn, and they all have more points than he does. There's no excusing or dismissing that. He's playing terrible hockey offensively.

[flyercanuck]

@radoran

 

And Couturier wasn't on every time Malkin got points

[fanaticV3.0]

You do understand what an opinion is right? (that's a question). And you still haven't asked me a question, except to ask me if I run away from conversations, etc..., which I assume has been answered by the fact that I'm still here.

 

So, do you actually want to ask me a question that's relevant to the thread topic or are you just trying to be an irritant?

 

I don't care your opinion, I care about facts. He's regressed offensively every year he's been in the league so far. I'm not going to feel good about that because you believe he's going to turn it around. I don't care what you believe unless it actually ends up being true.

Edited November 18, 2013 by hf101
edited

[fanaticV3.0]

True, but Giroux's down to .57 ppg which is lower than he's been in four years so I think we need to take the early part of this season with a grain of salt (or a shaker of salt) and see how they progress going forward.

 

Like many, I'd prefer to give him the chance to develop here rather than deciding he "needs a change of scenery" to reach his potential... Not an untouchable by any stretch.

 

 

Malkin had no points in Game 1, two each in 2 and 3, 3 in game 4, none in 5 (PIT W) and the lone Pens goal in the deciding game.

 

He had the first Pens goal in Game 4 (facing elimination) and assisted on the game-tying third before the Pens blew it open in the second period. He added a garbage goal in the third.

 

Half his points *did* come on the PP in that series, tho...

 

I'm legitimately concerned about Giroux too. He started off slow last year as well. Slow starts two years in a row is troublesome, even if he did rebound last year to a 1 ppg avg.

 

He's definitely not untouchable. I'm not trading him away for nothing, but he's definitely not untouchable.

[radoran]

@radoran

 

And Couturier wasn't on every time Malkin got points

 

I already made that point, obliquely, by noting Malkin had half his points on the PP.

[fanaticV3.0]

Sure. But you don't hear people complaining about Landeskogs paltry .1 per game point total over Sean Couturier....because they're only 20 years old. Claude Giroux, our most offensively gifted player only put up 27 points as a 20 year old in the NHL.

 

When you score 52 points as a rookie and have 15 in 18 your 3rd year, that's not much to complain about in that department. He's clearly at a higher level of production than Couturier is. "Nobody" is "complaining" about him because he's producing. No real mystery there.

[JackStraw]

I don't care your opinion, I care about facts. He's regressed offensively every year he's been in the league so far. I'm not going to feel good about that because you believe he's going to turn it around. I don't give a f-ck about what you believe unless it actually ends up being true.

 

Opinions are pretty much the only thing you're going to get here. You offer yours, other people offer theirs. That's what message boards are for. If you're looking for facts, go to hockey-reference.com or someplace like that (but you already knew that).

 

I don't particularly care about what you believe either, but it doesn't bother me if you post it here.

[flyercanuck]

When you score 52 points as a rookie and have 15 in 18 your 3rd year, that's not much to complain about in that department. He's clearly at a higher level of production than Couturier is. "Nobody" is "complaining" about him because he's producing. No real mystery there.

 

Riiiiight. So he's producing....at .1 ppg more than Couturier and that's fine, but there's a problem with Sean? I mean I'd like Couturier to put up more, but there isn't a huge difference in point totals here is there? Come on, there's a decimal one there.

[fanaticV3.0]

Riiiiight. So he's producing....at .1 ppg more than Couturier and that's fine, but there's a problem with Sean? I mean I'd like Couturier to put up more, but there isn't a huge difference in point totals here is there? Come on, there's a decimal one there.

 

What are you talking about?

 

Couturier

11-12: 27 points in 77 games for a .35 ppg avg

12-13: 15 points in 46 games for a .33 ppg avg

13-14: 4 points in 19 games for a .21 ppg avg

Career: 46 points in 142 games for a .32 ppg avg

 

Landeskog

11-12: 52 points in 82 games for a .63 ppg avg

12-13: 17 points in 36 games for a .47 ppg avg

13-14: 15 points in 18 games for a .83 ppg avg

Career: 84 points in 136 games for a .62 ppg avg

 

[fanaticV3.0]

Opinions are pretty much the only thing you're going to get here. You offer yours, other people offer theirs. That's what message boards are for. If you're looking for facts, go to hockey-reference.com or someplace like that (but you already knew that).

 

I don't particularly care about what you believe either, but it doesn't bother me if you post it here.

 

That's what people who are wrong usually say when confronted with facts. Save your kumbaya crap for the campfire.

[murraycraven]

Paulie??? Is this Paulie???

[JackStraw]

That's what people who are wrong usually say when confronted with facts. Save your kumbaya crap for the campfire.

 

ok, whatever.

[flyercanuck]

@fanaticV3.0

 

Sorry I went from .1 g and a. to ppg

[CoachX]

@fanaticV3.0

 

So you have done your research and posted your facts. You have discounted opinion as irrelevant and it is obvious you are less than enamored with Couturier.

 

What is your solution?

[aziz]

That's what people who are wrong usually say when confronted with facts. Save your kumbaya crap for the campfire.

 

the problem is that the facts have to do with what the player has done in the past.  you can use that to inform what you think they are going to do in the future, but that is still an opinion.  if you are going to go facts and facts alone, then you need to stop predicting the future.

 

the facts are couturier has not been a very strong offensive player to this point in his short and relatively underaged career.  does that mean he will continue to be a not very strong offensive player?  maybe.  opinion.  guesswork.  will he get his game in shape as he matures and learns the nuances of play at the NHL level?  maybe.  opinion.  guesswork.  you're doing the same thing as everyone else here, making guesses.  the fact that you are being a cynic while doing it doesn't make it any more legitimate.

[CoachX]

@aziz

 

Good points .... I have mixed feelings based on the fact that I want results NOW! I am a fan and therefore want all Flyers to be HOF potential superstars who will set the league on fire. I want a player, especially a high draft pick to be good enough to be worthy of that pick. Additionally I am a lifer, therefore anything less than superstar play makes me look for the nearest bridge. Passion dwarfs reality.

 

That said, I want Coots to be an all-star. He isn't. Knee jerk reaction says he wasn't worth the pick and should be shipped out. However, listening to many on forums like these, I see merit in holding on to a player and letting him develop. I hate when players get shipped out only to become really good players elsewhere. Patrick Sharp and Dainus Zubrus pop to mind.

 

My opinion is that I hope opinions like yours are accurate and he becomes a real good Flyer for a lot of years.

 

We can discuss facts later

[aziz]

Knee jerk reaction says he wasn't worth the pick and should be shipped out. However, listening to many on forums like these, I see merit in holding on to a player and letting him develop.

 

here's the thing:  i think you have to put the draft itself out of your head.  worth the pick, not worth the pick, he is flyers property now.  he currently fills an important defensive role, so to me he already has a legitimate place on the roster.  worst case, that's what he is, a functional defensive 3rd line center.  

 

the hope side comes from what he did in junior, and some sporadic examples of his vision more recently.  the hope that he can tune up the game that made him very successful as a kid and bring at least some resemblance of that to his NHL game.  maybe he can, maybe he can't....but again, he does something important for the team now, so i'm ok for the moment either way.

 

that said, he has not shown himself to be an all around phenom, and if there is some GM out there that values him as one, i'd entertain offers.  wouldn't get rid of him to get rid of him, but if someone wants to pay a high price, then cool.

[brelic]

@radoran

 

And Couturier wasn't on every time Malkin got points

There was a thread about this a while back, and I had posted a game by game comparison of who was on the ice when Malkin got his points. But I can't seem to find it at the moment..

[CoachX]

@aziz

 

I pretty muched missed the majority of this season. Fortunately so, since I would have been pretty unhappy as a fan. As I watch this team now, I think to myself, there isn't a "single" trade or move that would make any difference or turn it around. So guys like Couturier are just going to have to play their roles better. If he is a defensive player and does not produce high offensive numbers, so be it. Maybe the Flyers have actually designed a roster that leaves them no options but to let players develop.

 

BTW... i do think there are some older players on this roster that could be moved

[AJgoal]

There was a thread about this a while back, and I had posted a game by game comparison of who was on the ice when Malkin got his points. But I can't seem to find it at the moment..

 

I did too, some time back. I think Malkin got a grand total of 1 point when Couturier was on the ice, at least at even strength. I can't seem to search my posts back past September, though..