Yet another Sean Couturier thread

[mojo1917]

So the Kings can't win that cup without him. Is that correct?

yes... to discount his contributions to that team's win is disingenuous. 

your post made it sound like he was lucky to be along for the ride and everyone else did the heavy lifting and that is not accurate.

the man played on the top line.  scored clutch goals.  i don't understand why you are not grasping the importance of his contribution.

maybe you plug a different guy on the third line and get the same results, maybe not.  

He's not a superstar, but he is a good player that played an important role on a cup winning team.

not a difficult concept to grasp.

 

 

.

[fanaticV3.0]

Aww, what's the matter stat boy....I used his stats to point out the difference between the  pre and post Cooter/Read/Downie line and you want to put on your ass hat ? Well by all means, go ahead because sometimes it fits you really well.....and for the record I used the 6 games he has played since the line change.

 

For a 6 games stretch, lol. I don't know what you are congratulating yourself over. What is it you think you've won or proven? That those 6 games mean more than the 25 before it in which he didn't score a single goal?

[fanaticV3.0]

So all 3rd line defensive oriented forwards should outscore all offensive defencemen? Streit was brought in here for one purpose and one purpose only. Offence. It's what he's being paid $5 million a year for. Or was it his bodychecking ability and grit in front of the net?

 

 I excuse young guys? I sure as heck am not going to blame a teenager or 20 year old for a team full of multi-millionaire vets bad season. If your teams playing porrly is it the rookies fault? The guy in his 2nd season? Personally, I'll blame the guys making 5-6-7-8 million a year who aren't producing. Guys like Couturier are supposed to be learning from them ....are they not?  

 

 And if you think I'm "attached" to Couturier, he played his junior in the QMJHL. The closest game I could catch would be a 5 hour drive. So the only attachment I have to Couturier is he's a Flyers pick who hopefully gets the chance to develop before we trade him away for a 30 something year old guy who won somewhere else.

 

Nobody said that.

 

Yes, you do. You just did it again. You don't hold young players accountable. You just said so yourself. When a team struggles, it's the veteran's fault. 

[fanaticV3.0]

yes... to discount his contributions to that team's win is disingenuous. 

your post made it sound like he was lucky to be along for the ride and everyone else did the heavy lifting and that is not accurate.

the man played on the top line.  scored clutch goals.  i don't understand why you are not grasping the importance of his contribution.

maybe you plug a different guy on the third line and get the same results, maybe not.  

He's not a superstar, but he is a good player that played an important role on a cup winning team.

not a difficult concept to grasp.

 

 

.

 

He was. A guy like Williams is a product of his environment. That's not to say he isn't a good player, but there's a difference between a good player, and one you can't survive without. Quick was a guy that team could not live without. I wouldn't say that about Williams. That year, the Kings beat Vancouver, St. Louis, Phoenix, and NJ. If Williams were not on the Kings are they suddenly much more beatable? If any of those teams the Kings played had Williams, do they beat LA?

[flyerrod]

What is it you think you've won or proven? That those 6 games mean more than the 25 before it in which he didn't score a single goal?

I mean scoring overall as in  when paired with legitimate line mates that he is going to score more. What part of that trend are you not seeing? This started in another thread where you took umbrage with my remark about He(Cooter) should start scoring more with Downie and Read. You asked why I thought that and I answered but all you want to do is say "look how bad his stats have been" and not acknowledge that he has more than doubled his PPG average since paired with them. That and a plus 7 while playing against the opponent's top line. Keep your blinders on if you like but Cooter is proving and will continue to prove you wrong.  (-:l3

[fanaticV3.0]

I mean scoring overall as in  when paired with legitimate line mates that he is going to score more. What part of that trend are you not seeing? This started in another thread where you took umbrage with my remark about He(Cooter) should start scoring more with Downie and Read. You asked why I thought that and I answered but all you want to do is say "look how bad his stats have been" and not acknowledge that he has more than doubled his PPG average since paired with them. That and a plus 7 while playing against the opponent's top line. Keep your blinders on if you like but Cooter is proving and will continue to prove you wrong.  (-:l3

 

No, I took umbridge that you said that line would score "a lot", not that they wouldn't score at all.  You exaggerate your opinion. For example, a guy can go 25 games without a goal and you say nothing. He gets a couple of points in a handful of games and you flip your sh!t. I'm not wearing blinders, it's just that you're carrying pom-poms.

Edited November 25, 2013 by fanaticV3.0

[flyercanuck]

Nobody said that.

 

Yes, you do. You just did it again. You don't hold young players accountable. You just said so yourself. When a team struggles, it's the veteran's fault. 

 

Ok, my mistake...I thought your comment ",Of course he did, he's a f-cking forward" was alluding towards forwards should score more than defence. So what does it mean?

 

As for me cutting younger players slack, ya, guilty. Like I said, shouldn't a guy like Couturier be learning from the veterans on the team? 

[fanaticV3.0]

Ok, my mistake...I thought your comment ",Of course he did, he's a f-cking forward" was alluding towards forwards should score more than defence. So what does it mean?

 

As for me cutting younger players slack, ya, guilty. Like I said, shouldn't a guy like Couturier be learning from the veterans on the team? 

 

It's alluding that most forwards will score more than defensemen. It doesn't mean they all will though. It was not an all or nothing statement.

 

People are responsible for their own actions. It doesn't mean coaches and other (veteran) players can't and won't help or hurt their development, but at the end of the day you're responsible for your own ass. When a team is playing poorly it's usually because everyone (or at least most) are playing poorly. It is not just because the veterans alone are playing poorly. If you are going to praise a guy when he's playing well (which is fair) you can't completely excuse him from his mistakes. It's not a crime to criticize somebody if they are young.

[flyercanuck]

@fanaticV3.0

 

Right. It's not a crime to cheer for a guy just cause he's young either

 

The difference is a guy like Couturier likely has a higher ceiling than what he's showing us right now. As a 20 year old he's expected to still be learning the NHL game and should get more of a pass because of that. A guy like Streit should already have that experience. And he should already be well past the finished product.

[fanaticV3.0]

@fanaticV3.0

 

Right. It's not a crime to cheer for a guy just cause he's young either

 

The difference is a guy like Couturier likely has a higher ceiling than what he's showing us right now. As a 20 year old he's expected to still be learning the NHL game and should get more of a pass because of that. A guy like Streit should already have that experience. And he should already be well past the finished product.

 

I don't object to you cheering for him at all. I object to you dismissing all criticism of him because he's young and giving him credit when he plays well. Guys play well or poorly at any age. It's irrelevant. Anybody can have a string of bad games.

[flyercanuck]

@fanaticV3.0

 

I guess I just have more patience for a kid who's still learning than I do for a 30-something year old taking up a ton of capspace. That's where it is relevant. The whole team (other than the goalies) was playing bad. It was pointed out Couturier might do better offensively if they gave him some decent linemates, and that appears to be just what the doctor ordered.And now it appears most of the team is playing well. So what's Streits excuse?  Cause he hasn't done much since he got here. 

[flyerrod]

No, I took umbridge that you said that line would score "a lot", not that they wouldn't score at all.

That 3rd line has a lot of potential for scoring. Pretty good speed from Read and pretty solid puck handling/passing from Downie/Cooter. I am thinking they will all be at least +2 tonight.

 

 

POTENTIAL......

po·ten·tial

pəˈtenCHəl/

adjective

adjective: potential

1.

having or showing the capacity to become or develop into something in the future.

"a two-pronged campaign to woo potential customers"

synonyms: possible, likely, prospective, future, probable; More

Now quit misquoting me and put your hat back on.....

[King Knut]

I'm with you man, I don't know if these other guys are new to he game, but a) NO ONE was scori g in this team early on and now they are starting to more consistently. couturier seems to be joining them now by when no one at all is scoring much, picking on one guy for not scoring enough is silly.

B) the role he does fill quite well right now is incredibly important. Why does no one give him that credit? It's worth a goal or two a game really. C) if he can start to score 40 points a game and do what he does now on Defense, he'll be an I credibly valuable player.

D) both coburn and couturier are among the team leaders in minutes per game. Do people here really think that happens to lazy or nonproductive players? Do people here at all realize that when you play more than anyone else and your primary responsibility is defense first that you're not necessarily supposed to have an urgency on offense and by rules of sheer physical endurance you might not be as quick as the guy who's played 3-5 minutes less?

if there was a question as the whether he had "it" enough to stick around in the NHL or not, i'd agree. that really isn't the question, though. the guy belongs in this league and does an important job for the flyers right now. that's reason enough to stick with him. if he starts delivering 60+ point seasons, awesome, but so long as he has the stuff to play in the league and fill a role, i don't see any need to question beyond that.

[fanaticV3.0]

@fanaticV3.0

 

I guess I just have more patience for a kid who's still learning than I do for a 30-something year old taking up a ton of capspace. That's where it is relevant. The whole team (other than the goalies) was playing bad. It was pointed out Couturier might do better offensively if they gave him some decent linemates, and that appears to be just what the doctor ordered.And now it appears most of the team is playing well. So what's Streits excuse?  Cause he hasn't done much since he got here. 

 

Everybody has good games and bad games regardless of age.

 

And if you are going to give somebody credit for good play, you have to hold them responsible for their por play too. Couturier is playing good hockey. He's coming around because he is personally playing betteir. His linemates are too, but he's helped himself too. He's every bit as responsible for his play as Streight is.

[doom88]

Everybody has good games and bad games regardless of age.

And if you are going to give somebody credit for good play, you have to hold them responsible for their por play too. Couturier is playing good hockey. He's coming around because he is personally playing betteir. His linemates are too, but he's helped himself too. He's every bit as responsible for his play as Streight is.

I almost agree, and I think the disconnect is patience. I have more patience for a young guy learning the ropes at the top level in the world, and am willing to cut a little slack for the sake of understanding he's not going to be perfect immediately. Established players on the other hand deserve full, but fair criticism. They know better and have "been there" so to speak. I pencil in that line at 24 for forwards, 25 for power forwards, defenseman, and goalies.

Couturier is 21 now and still filling out? Take it easy and enjoy his progress. Streit turns the puck over at the blueline again, let it rain hate. Giroux plays defense like Pavel Bure, minus the scoring, oh hell no.

[fanaticV3.0]

I almost agree, and I think the disconnect is patience. I have more patience for a young guy learning the ropes at the top level in the world, and am willing to cut a little slack for the sake of understanding he's not going to be perfect immediately. Established players on the other hand deserve full, but fair criticism. They know better and have "been there" so to speak. I pencil in that line at 24 for forwards, 25 for power forwards, defenseman, and goalies.

Couturier is 21 now and still filling out? Take it easy and enjoy his progress. Streit turns the puck over at the blueline again, let it rain hate. Giroux plays defense like Pavel Bure, minus the scoring, oh hell no.

 

I don't like Streit and haven't defended him. I have no interest in defending him about him. He stinks.  My criticism of Couturier's lack of production was not a defense of Streit's. I think using one of the worst players on the team as an example of "old guys can get criticized" more is lame as sh!t.

 

I'm simply saying be fair about judging players.

[flyerrod]

I'm simply saying be fair about judging players.

 

:lol:

 

Coming from you, That is freakin' HILARIOUS!!!!!!!Did you really type that or has someone hacked your account........

[doom88]

I don't like Streit and haven't defended him. I have no interest in defending him about him. He stinks. My criticism of Couturier's lack of production was not a defense of Streit's. I think using one of the worst players on the team as an example of "old guys can get criticized" more is lame as ****.

I'm simply saying be fair about judging players.

I was using Streit as an example, not a indictment of you. Ditto Giroux.

We have different definitions of fair, that's all. Nothing wrong with that, we need different opinions. But I highly doubt most people would think it's fair to weigh an entry level performance review against the same criteria as a team lead / senior. Each have different goals practically, and all I'm trying to do is be as objective as I can according to my own definition.

I see your point of view, and understand what you're getting at though. I'm just not sure it's the best way of going about things. Shrug.

[JackStraw]

Streit turns the puck over at the blueline again, let it rain hate

 

I guess I have to be the one to defend Streit. Firstly, he has all of twelve (12) turnovers. That's as many as Grossman has, and nobody is paying Grossman to handle the puck. By comparison, Erik Karlsson (Norris Trophy winner Eric Karlsson) leads the league with 41. Byfuglien is second with 39. Other notables with way more giveaways than Streit- Mike Green (29), Andrei Markov (28), Cody Franson (26), Kris Letang (25), Kevin Bieksa (25),Brent Seabrook (23). I could go on but those are just a few defensemen on the first page:

 

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20142ALLSASALL&viewName=rtssPlayerStats&sort=giveaways&pg=1

 

Streit is currently 162nd in the league in giveaways. Someone take him out back and shoot him, please. And he's leading the team's defense corps in scoring (faint praise if there ever was such a thing but you can't blame Streit for that). He's basically an older Matt Carle if Matt Carle could actually shoot the puck. Carle is probably a better skater and plays better defense, but they're in the same ballpark.

[blocker]

Patrick Sharp, as you note, was never put into the position that Chicago gave him. He was a "disappointing" fourth line player here and a star second liner in Chicago.

 

I watched Sharp when he was at UVM.  He was obviously a hell of a hockey player.  Hitchcock just flat out misread him.   How many times have we seen hockey coaches deny players productive chances, and then use that lack of production to justify their own bad judgement? 

Edited November 30, 2013 by blocker

[doom88]

I guess I have to be the one to defend Streit. Firstly, he has all of twelve (12) turnovers. That's as many as Grossman has, and nobody is paying Grossman to handle the puck. By comparison, Erik Karlsson (Norris Trophy winner Eric Karlsson) leads the league with 41. Byfuglien is second with 39. Other notables with way more giveaways than Streit- Mike Green (29), Andrei Markov (28), Cody Franson (26), Kris Letang (25), Kevin Bieksa (25),Brent Seabrook (23). I could go on but those are just a few defensemen on the first page:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20142ALLSASALL&viewName=rtssPlayerStats&sort=giveaways&pg=1

Streit is currently 162nd in the league in giveaways. Someone take him out back and shoot him, please. And he's leading the team's defense corps in scoring (faint praise if there ever was such a thing but you can't blame Streit for that). He's basically an older Matt Carle if Matt Carle could actually shoot the puck. Carle is probably a better skater and plays better defense, but they're in the same ballpark.

Man, given that info, Streit must only turnover the puck when all the focus is on him. Thanks for the stats.

[flyerrod]

@fanaticV3.0

 

Ok to keep you happy and put his stats into real context I will start at the beginning of the season. 3 Goals....7 Assts....and a +8. That is a running total for the first 26 games. That comes out to a .38 PPG average that includes the crappy start by everyone on the team. Since his being combined with Downie/Read he averaging  .80 PPG which I am pretty sure most on here can live with that from a 3rd line center.......I am going to go with trading away Cooter FOR ANYONE is a bad thing but that is just me.......

[flyercanuck]

I guess I have to be the one to defend Streit. Firstly, he has all of twelve (12) turnovers. That's as many as Grossman has, and nobody is paying Grossman to handle the puck. By comparison, Erik Karlsson (Norris Trophy winner Eric Karlsson) leads the league with 41. Byfuglien is second with 39. Other notables with way more giveaways than Streit- Mike Green (29), Andrei Markov (28), Cody Franson (26), Kris Letang (25), Kevin Bieksa (25),Brent Seabrook (23). I could go on but those are just a few defensemen on the first page:

 

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20142ALLSASALL&viewName=rtssPlayerStats&sort=giveaways&pg=1

 

Streit is currently 162nd in the league in giveaways. Someone take him out back and shoot him, please. And he's leading the team's defense corps in scoring (faint praise if there ever was such a thing but you can't blame Streit for that). He's basically an older Matt Carle if Matt Carle could actually shoot the puck. Carle is probably a better skater and plays better defense, but they're in the same ballpark.

 

 Can't wait for his defenders in 2 or 3 years. :blink:

 

 Guess i can't blame him for taking the money. He's got 3 more points than Grossmann. He only has 9 more points than Hal Gill. Holmgren is an idiot.

[Mad Dog]

 Holmgren is an idiot.

 

You *just* made that revelation, FC?  This is something I have been saying since Holmgren's first year here.  The guy is totally in over his head. 

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

Pretty good article on Couturier's worth

 

http://thehockeywriters.com/putting-sean-couturiers-offense-context/

 

Putting Sean Couturier’s Offense Into Context

 

After a sterling rookie year where Sean Couturier finished 10th in points among rookies and played strong defensively, expectations going into the 2012-13 season were high.  But in the past two seasons, many fans have been frustrated with Couturier’s perceived lack of progress offensively.

Flyers’ Strong Center Depth

In the current NHL, depth and strength at center has been a common denominator of recent Stanley Cup winners.  The Flyers currently boast some of the best organizational depth at center in the league.  They are particularly loaded at the NHL level, with Claude Giroux and Vinny Lecavalier occupying the top-six center positions, forcing Sean Couturier to the third line and Brayden Schenn to the wing.  In the minors, Scott Laughton is lighting the OHL on fire.  With Laughton knocking on the door of the NHL, many have clamored for the Flyers to trade Couturier to address weaknesses in the organization, specifically for a puck-moving defenseman.

Through all the speculation and rumors surrounding Couturier, Paul Holmgren has maintained Couturier is untouchable in trade talks.  Holmgren is deserving of criticism for a number of his personnel decisions, but refusing to trade Couturier is not one of them.

While it is true Couturier has not lit the world on fire offensively, he has done very well for himself when you consider the context and circumstances in which he has played his first three seasons.

Sean Couturier’s Linemates & Usage in Philadelphia

The combination of Philadelphia’s center depth, Couturier’s inexperience, and his defensive acumen has relegated him to bottom-six duties so far in his NHL career.  As a result, he has not been placed with offensively talented linemates, limiting his offensive output.  In his three NHL seasons, his two most common linemates each year have been Max Talbot and Zac Rinaldo (11-12), Max Talbot and Matt Read (12-13), and Matt Read and Steve Downie (13-14).  None of those linemates have ever scored 50 points in a single season.

 

(Eric Hartline-USA TODAY Sports)

 

In addition to playing with weak offensive linemates, Couturier has not been placed in favorable situations to allow him to score points.  Instead, the Flyers have decided to utilize his defensive abilities and have him face and neutralize the opponent’s top players.  In his career, Couturier has started just 40.3, 32.1, and 41.5 percent of his shifts in the offensive zone.  In each year, he has managed to finish his shifts in the offensive zone 45.4, 44.7, and 48.9 percent of the time for an average increase of around 8% each year.  This illustrates two points.

The first is that Couturier effectively helps the team transition from playing defense to creating offense and keeping the puck in the opponent’s end.  This is especially impressive considering he generally does not play with very talented linemates that are good at creating and sustaining offensive pressure.

The other takeaway is that Flyers coaches are supremely confident in Couturier’s ability to defend in his own zone.  Giving heavy defensive responsibilities to a young forward like Couturier shows the Flyers’ coaching staff are supremely confident in his abilities.  Coach Craig Berube has waxed poetic about Couturier’s defensive abilities, trusting him in high-pressure situations on a regular basis.

Although his time on the power play has increased with time, he is still not a regular on the first or second unit.  Among Flyers forwards, he has ranked 10th, 10th, and 9th in power play time on ice per game.  Conversely, he has been in the top three in shorthanded time on ice per game among forwards each year.  Combined with the fact that his even-strength assignments are usually defensive, Couturier has not been in a position to succeed offensively.

Couturier Compared to Recently Drafted Players

The criticism Couturier has received has been based on his offense, not his defense.  The biggest problem with that criticism is that the offensive expectations placed on Couturier are unrealistic considering his usage.  There have been a number of comparable players to Couturier drafted since 2006.  My criteria for selecting comparables was that they are centers, top 15 picks, and were touted as being good two-way players when they were drafted.  With those criteria in mind, the players that fit the profile are Jordan Staal, Jonathan Toews, Josh Bailey, Lars Eller, Cody Hodgson and Matt Duchene.  Here is a breakdown of those players over their first three years in the NHL:

 

Edit:  Click on this link  to view the chart.  The formatting would not copy/paste correctly.  http://thehockeywriters.com/putting-sean-couturiers-offense-context/

 

The above chart is a breakdown of even strength scoring between Couturier and six notable contemporaries.  Compiled using Behind the Net, the Weighted Avg. ESP/60 (WA ESP/60) column illustrates the even strength scoring ability of each player over the first three years of his career.  It is a weighted average(by season) of how many points each player scores per 60 minutes on the ice at even strength.  The only exception is Jordan Staal, whose score (1.6000) was calculated using just his second and third NHL seasons because data was not available for his first season.  The “First Year” column is how many NHL seasons passed after a player was drafted before he played his first NHL game.  This is an important number to consider because significant developmental strides can be made in a few extra years in juniors, and where the player stands in his development needs to be factored in to provide context to the WA ESP/60 column.

Using WA ESP/60 puts each player on a level playing field to examine their offense.  It normalizes ice time per game and games played by showing it on a per 60 minute basis where the player is on the ice.

Analyzing the Chart

Looking at the above chart, Jonathan Toews jumps out as being by far the most impressive player.  This is no surprise considering Toews is considered one of the best players in the league.  Not only is he the best offensive player listed, but he’s also the best defensively.

 

(Charles LeClaire-US PRESSWIRE)

 

When you consider the final three columns of the chart, it is clear Jordan Staal is the closest comparable player to Couturier.  Both entered the league immediately after they were drafted and have similar WA ESP/60 totals.  Their linemates are fairly comparable with Staal’s being more established players.  Factor in linemates and it is likely that their WA ESP/60 would be essentially the same.  In their first three years, both were used extensively in key defensive and penalty killing situations.  Through the first three years of their  respective careers, Couturier and Staal have been eerily similar.

Offensively, Couturier should be considered better than Eller, Bailey and Hodgson through their first three years.  His numbers are far above Bailey’s and slightly ahead of Eller’s.  However, Eller spent two extra years in juniors before playing in the NHL, so Couturier’s advantage is greater than the numbers indicate.  Despite Hodgson’s numerical advantage, Couturier should be considered better because Hodgson played two additional years in junior and has played with two all-star linemates in Thomas Vanek and Jason Pominville.  Even when you consider Duchene’s strong linemates, he was clearly better than Couturier in his first three years.

Defensively, Couturier is at worst third.  Toews is clearly No. 1, Staal likely No. 2, and Couturier No. 3.  After Couturier, there is a pretty clear drop-off in demonstrated defensive ability at the NHL level through 3 years.

The Big Takeaway

The point?  Couturier’s “offensive woes” are nothing more than a failure to provide context to the numbers.  Compare him to similar high draft pick, two-way centers, and he stacks up very well.  While he has not exploded offensively like Toews or Duchene, his offense has been solid considering the circumstances, and he has shown better defensive skills than most.

Paul Holmgren’s refusal to deal Sean Couturier is the correct move.

Edited December 1, 2013 by AlaskaFlyerFan