Timmy P's Thoughts on Emery

[ruxpin]

I can't recall ever seeing a player try to talk his opponent out of fighting

 

That would have been the second period of the very same game.   Downie.

 

Now I am being deliberately obtuse because I know you mean "before the fight even starts."   Give me some time to come up with concrete examples, because I have seen it.

 

 

But this is really no different than a George Parros going after a Danny Briere type.  The only difference between Briere and Holtby in that situation is that Briere would be among other players and have somewhere to go and hide.  There was no place for Holtby to go and even the ref stood there with his thumb up his ass.    And I really do think that if we had watched a Parros-type go after one of our players that are clearly not fighters and have no real interest in it, the howling on this board would be deafening.

[King Knut]

The thing is Holtby does fight.  He may convey that he doesn't want to, but he does put 'em up and go after Emery.  He's just not very good at it.

 

Emery should have stopped when the kid his his knees though.  That's legit. 

 

Holtby "kinda got what he deserved" because he pretended there's such a thing as "politely declining" an invitation to fight. Maybe you guys led sheltered lives or something I don't know - LOL (jk) - but where I come from somebody challenges you to a fight you fight.

[canoli]

that's right K - he embarrasses himself at first by whining, "oh no, please, not lil' ol' me...I'm just a-standing here minding my own business."

 

ray: "toughshit pal you're wearing the wrong sweater tonight. Put up your dukes and let's go."

 

and then Mr. Holtby gives it a shot. He gets creamed quickly, falls to his knees - and I agree that's when Ray should've quit. But he didn't, he added a few more chops to the back of his lid for good measure. Big deal. None of those shots hurt Holtby, no way.

 

@ruxpin - I totally agree with you - the Emery thing was the exclamation point on a night full of stupidity out of the O&B. Well said.

 

[edit: @ruxpin - but you're way off on the Downie thing. Vopatti clocked him good right in the face and according to everything I read that's when SD said "whoa I'm hurt" and V knew he wasn't kidding. A classy move by Volpatti to hear that and immediately quit hauling off. A terrible fight by Downie, who didn't protect himself at all against that shot.]

Edited November 4, 2013 by canoli

[ruxpin]

He may convey that he doesn't want to, but he does put 'em up and go after Emery. He's just not very good at it.

 

Oh my God that's weak.  He "put'em up" like the 97 lb weakling "put'em up" when being attacked by the bully.  It doesn't mean the weakling was a willing participant.  Holtby was trying to get something, anything, in the way in the hopes something might happen by dumb luck.

 

And yes, Emery should have stopped when the kid hit his knees.   It was an unmitigated and unnecessary assault.  To my knowledge, Holtby didn't even have skittles on him.

[ruxpin]

@ruxpin - I totally agree with you - the Emery thing was the exclamation point on a night full of stupidity out of the O&B. Well said.

 

You know, I guess that's the crux of it.  Maybe I don't have as big a problem with the Emery thing if it wasn't for the above.  I honestly don't know.

[radoran]

that's right K - he embarrasses himself at first by whining, "oh no, please, not lil' ol' me...I'm just a-standing here minding my own business."

 

The embarassment was Emery's play in goal.

 

Holtby got up and finished his shutout. He had nothing at all to be "embarassed" about. Still doesn't.

[B21]

@King Knut

 

Let's put aside the flyers for a moment... The NHL in which a player "declines" to fight in that situation in a game like that is truly a shameful shameful state of affairs.

You don't politely decline to fight. You skate away, you Turtle, or you grab his arms and try to make it look good then tell him you don't want to. I.e. you do exactly what ray suggested, you defend yourself.

What has this league come to when a player doesn't even know how to defend himself?

 

If you are talking about an agitator like an Avery "declining" - this point has merit. Not a goalie with no history of anything deserving of a beat down; certainly nothing in this game other than pitching a shutout.

 

If you do something where the unwritten code dictates you fight - you are spot on.  But Holby is under no obligation to fight because Emery is po'd about his bad game.

And I don't mean that he doesn't know how to fight back, I mean that he doesn't know how to put up his hands to block the fists coming at his face.

 

What about the fists pounding the back of his head while he's down?  How does one block those?

 

Using your rationale, Volpatti had no reason to stop fighting Downie when Downie asked for the proverbail "No mas!" - but he did.  The irony....

 

(If your reponse - if there is one - is going to be something along the lines of a Rick-like "b-b-b-b-b but the Pens...." don't waste time typing.)

[Mad Dog]

@canoli

 

Your whole promise is that by default Holtby had to accept fighting and as a result, he is somehow responsible for this?  Are you for real?

 

This is frigging hockey, not boxing.  Fighting in hockey is secondary. Holtby's job is to play net, not fight. You make it sound like he *had* to fight.

 

Roy/Vernon fight was entirely different.  I don't recall every single detail, but one of them got actively involved in the fight with skaters (I beleive it was Roy), so Vernon came in to even things up.  Holtby had no participation in the fight.  He was standing in his crease and minded his business.  This was an assualt.  If I am Holtby, I would actually be pressuing criminal charges.

[ruxpin]

The embarassment was Emery's play in goal.

 

Holtby got up and finished his shutout. He had nothing at all to be "embarassed" about. Still doesn't.

 

I really don't see it as any different from when Chara jumped Timander or Neil jumped Somik.  To a person, the board was yelling about fighters jumping non-fighters there.   In both cases, Timander and Somik offered resistance, but they weren't exactly willing combatants.    At least in the case of Neil, he was standing right next to Somik for the faceoff.  

 

Here the guy skates the length of the ice to attack someone he KNEW wasn't going to be able to put up any fight.   THAT--for me--is the definition of cowardice.   To me, Emery in that situation is the coward, not Holtby.

 

In any case, it was Holtby who was able to stop the puck (I know, as a goalie, that's NOT his job!).

[canoli]

in your opinion. You musta went to them expensive private schools where you have rowing and whatnot (!). But to me and my friends - anyone who does what he did is an embarrassment and a joke.

 

But you're right about Emery's game that night - god awful and embarrassing indeed. At least he followed it up well the next night by scoring his own shutout. Oh yes, 14 shots baby! Count 'em, he stopped them all!

[canoli]

oh lord Dog are you for real? Now you wanna call the cops? Or worse, the lawyers?

 

Did I say "he was responsible for all this"? No.

 

To all you guys claiming Holtby is a victim and Ray is the Big Bad Wolf:

For the last time - (if you don't get it by now you never will) - if you're challenged to fight you fight. Period. End of story. If you don't, if you chicken out and run away, or worse try to talk your way out of it .... well what do you call a guy who does that?

[B21]

Oh my God that's weak.  He "put'em up" like the 97 lb weakling "put'em up" when being attacked by the bully.  It doesn't mean the weakling was a willing participant.  Holtby was trying to get something, anything, in the way in the hopes something might happen by dumb luck.

 

And yes, Emery should have stopped when the kid hit his knees.   It was an unmitigated and unnecessary assault.  To my knowledge, Holtby didn't even have skittles on him.

 

What - you didn't know that in order to prove he really didn't want to fight that Holtby was supposed to just stand there and take whatever shots Emery felt like giving?

 

Holtby was wearing a hoodie after all...

[canoli]

Here the guy skates the length of the ice to attack someone he KNEW wasn't going to be able to put up any fight.

 

What? Are you trying to pretend Holtby has never dropped his gloves before? Holtby has fought on occasion. Can I name the date/time right this second? No. But I'll bet my left nut he's been involved in fights before the other night. (if I'm wrong though spare my nut won't you? I'll give you a nostril or an ear or something)

 

Seriously cut out the victim nonsense please...we've already got MD on the phone with Johnny Cochran's firm...

 

[edit: THERE WERE NO VICTIMS in that game except the Flyers fans who had to watch that crappy game by their team.]

Edited November 4, 2013 by canoli

[aziz]

Here the guy skates the length of the ice to attack someone he KNEW wasn't going to be able to put up any fight.   THAT--for me--is the definition of cowardice.   To me, Emery in that situation is the coward, not Holtby.

 

further, there was only one fight going on at the time, it isn't like everyone was paired up.  which means that emery skated past 4 washington skaters who were just standing around to get at holtby.  i'm sure at some point, one of those skaters had taken a late dig at a puck, or bumped into emery while trying to screen, or *something* that could have been used as justification for "i'm pissed at this guy so i'm gonna fight him", but emery bypasses them all for the one guy who couldn't possibly have done something to anger him, and the one guy least likely to be able to effectively defend himself.  yes, coward.

[EightyEight]

Just about every night this year someone (other than Flyers) are being suspended because of a cheap shot intentional boarding and/or elbowing and no one cries about that.   In addition, most games involve a player being jumped by another.  The flyers are no different than other other team when it comes to fist-a-cuffs.   In an effort to match the big bad bruins and dirty blues back in the day the flyers matched their mentality to make things equal and give them a chance.  Ever since then they haven't been able to lose the Bullies tag.  What happened vs the capitals has been played many many times before by all NHL team.

Edited November 4, 2013 by ruxpin
Unnecessary and inflamatory

[canoli]

and the one guy least likely to be able to effectively defend himself.

 

explain that if you would. Are you saying Holtby is known as a "non-fighter" or something? I never heard that about him, honestly. I can't say I heard the opposite either. He's just another goalie AFAIK, no real history either way. But I did have a chance to google him and he's fought before.

 

[edit: it can't be the fact he's wearing goalie pads because so is Emery. What am I missing?]

Edited November 4, 2013 by canoli

[aziz]

To all you guys claiming Holtby is a victim and Ray is the Big Bad Wolf:
For the last time - (if you don't get it by now you never will) - if you're challenged to fight you fight. Period. End of story. If you don't, if you chicken out and run away, or worse try to talk your way out of it .... well what do you call a guy who does that?

 

seriously?  in all of this, the most flagrant thing was that holtby didn't want to fight?  that is the main thing you take away from it all??

 

wow.

[ruxpin]

What? Are you trying to pretend Holtby has never dropped his gloves before? Holtby has fought on occasion. Can I name the date/time right this second? No. But I'll bet my left nut he's been involved in fights before the other night. (if I'm wrong though spare my nut won't you? I'll give you a nostril or an ear or something)

 

Seriously cut out the victim nonsense please...we've already got MD on the phone with Johnny Cochran's firm...

 

[edit: THERE WERE NO VICTIMS in that game except the Flyers fans who had to watch that crappy game by their team.]

 

I'm not sure whether Holtby fought in Saskatoon or Hershey.  His PIM totals allow for the possibility there and I cannot find a game log anywhere.   But he has never fought in the NHL.  In fact, he only has 2 PIM in his entire NHL career (which isn't long, so it doesn't say THAT much).

[aziz]

What? Are you trying to pretend Holtby has never dropped his gloves before? Holtby has fought on occasion. Can I name the date/time right this second? No. But I'll bet my left nut he's been involved in fights before the other night. (if I'm wrong though spare my nut won't you? I'll give you a nostril or an ear or something)

 

in 2008 while in the WHL he was in one fight.  and in 1997 while on the playground.  a kid on the swings saw holtby standing there eating some cheetos 200 feet away, jumped off the swings, ran across the soccer field and jumped little braden.  braden said, "whoa, dude, wtf is your problem, you can have some if you want," but the other kid didn't care.  punched holtby several times and didn't even take the cheetos.  teachers opted against suspending the kid, because they decided worst part about it was that holtby tried to talk his way out of the fight.  if someone wants to fight you, you fight, end of story.  braden holtby has always been an embarrassment, and always will be.  i foresee him just trying to roll away when a fellow retirement home resident tries to attack him in his wheel chair for no reason, it'll be pathetic.

[canoli]

seriously?  in all of this, the most flagrant thing was that holtby didn't want to fight?  that is the main thing you take away from it all??

 

wow.

 

sorry but I'm not sure what you're accusing me of. It sounds like you haven't read the whole thread...

 

the "main thing you take away..." ?

 

No, it's the "main thing" when we're discussing whether Holtby should've answered the bell when Emery rang it in his face, that's all.

[canoli]

okay - good story, cute. Gave me a smile. It has absolutely no relevance to what happened the other night but ... cute story yes.

[ruxpin]

What happened vs the capitals has been played many many times before by all NHL team.

 

No.  Not recently.  I don't remember the last time I saw a goalie skate the length of the ice because ONE fight was going on and pummel another goalie that clearly wasn't engaged in any of it and clearly didn't want to fight.

Edited November 4, 2013 by ruxpin
Off Topic

[aziz]

sorry but I'm not sure what you're accusing me of.

 

i'm accusing you of thinking the only weird thing about the entire situation was that holtby didn't want to fight emery.  the entire league is going, "what the hell is going on in philly, what a joke they've become," and you are only interested in a goalie thinking it crazy that suddenly he has to fight a guy he's never been within 100 feet of before.

[aziz]

okay - good story, cute. Gave me a smile. It has absolutely no relevance to what happened the other night but ... cute story yes.

 

 

the relevance was that no, holtby has never been in a fight in the NHL.  was in one in junior.  the circumstances of which neither of us have any knowledge.

[aziz]

you know, maybe the embarrassment to the team and its fans wouldn't have been so bad had they not then given emery the 3rd star.  

 

seriously, just...pathetic is the word most of us seem to have agreed on.