Snider - What a *******!

[radoran]

I don't remember. Who did the Flyers talk to before hiring Lavi?

 

You and your "facts"

 

I was looking for that, but the vast majority of Google results for "hired" also come up for "fired"

 

It is a bit of apples and oranges, given that Hitchcock was an off-season hire, not a panic in-season replacement. And, again, the context was an "exhaustive search" to replace Barber that come up with one interview - who just so happened to be a former member of the organization who was the former assistant coach to the then-current assistant GM. Purely by coincidence. Actually had little to do with it...

 

But, for a fun read, try this link, but replace every reference to "John Stevens" with "Peter Laviolette"

 

It's like a Mad Lib for Flyers ownership.

[doom88]

I don't remember. Who did the Flyers talk to before hiring Lavi?

Torts and one or two others? I want to say four names were available at the time?

[radoran]

Laviolette had also interviewed with the Flyers the previous summer on their Phantoms opening. 

 

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/nhl/2009-12-04-stevens-fired_N.htm

[ruxpin]

Torts and one or two others? I want to say four names were available at the time?

Did they actually talk to them, though, or were their names just bantied about? I know rad thinks I was trying to smarmily make a point (maybe a little), but the honest to God truth is that I really honestly don't remember

[doom88]

Did they actually talk to them, though, or were their names just bantied about? I know rad thinks I was trying to smarmily make a point (maybe a little), but the honest to God truth is that I really honestly don't remember

My memory is fuzzy at best unfortunately

[ruxpin]

Rad, I agree the Hitch thing vs the Lavi thing is very different circumstances. Just I wondering if they actually did consider anyone else. Your Phantoms thing makes me think they decided go skip the whole process and just plug someone in that they'd already interviewed.

[radoran]

Rad, I agree the Hitch thing vs the Lavi thing is very different circumstances. Just I wondering if they actually did consider anyone else. Your Phantoms thing makes me think they decided go skip the whole process and just plug someone in that they'd already interviewed.

 

That's quite possible. And, I really didn't take Lavy into consideration. But, going back and looking at the timeline, they had interviewed a number of guys for the Phantoms and, so, had a backlog of coaches available when they pulled the Stevens' plug.

[ruxpin]

That's quite possible. And, I really didn't take Lavy into consideration. But, going back and looking at the timeline, they had interviewed a number of guys for the Phantoms and, so, had a backlog of coaches available when they pulled the Stevens' plug.

 

I think you're right that that's how it went down.   God, it's only what, 4 years ago?  I have absolutely no memory of it.   I think I was too busy typing FIRE.STEVENS.NOW!  Several thousand times.

[fanaticV3.0]

The Stars gave him the Kalamazoo job directly as a result of his time in Philadelphia. He was then promoted less than three years later to the Stars themselves.

 

Then there this:

 

 

 

and this

 

http://articles.latimes.com/2002/may/15/sports/sp-nhlnotes15

 

 

Oh, heck, one more:

http://articles.mcall.com/2002-05-15/sports/3407401_1_bill-dineen-ken-hitchcock-flyer-mark-recchi

 

 

You see any other "outside" guys who the Flyers bring in without talking to anyone else at all? 'cause I don't...

 

"It's like home for me," Hitchcock said. "There isn't going to be a transition time."

 

That bullshit they say when they are hired carries about as much weight as anything that comes out of a politician's mouth. Of course they give you some dog and pony show at the moment of hiring. They're not going to be honest. It's not time for that. It's time for ideology, pom-pom waving, and company jargon.

 

You know why he was (supposedly) their "only" and "first" choice? Because of his time in Dallas, not that three year stint here as an assistant. That three year stint doesn't define him, it is not what he is known for, and it isn't even comparable to Hextall's situation. Hextall has decades here. He's a part of "the Flyers family". Hitch is just a guy who passed through.

[radoran]

"It's like home for me," Hitchcock said. "There isn't going to be a transition time."

 

That bullshit they say when they are hired carries about as much weight as anything that comes out of a politician's mouth. Of course they give you some dog and pony show at the moment of hiring. They're not going to be honest. It's not time for that. It's time for ideology, pom-pom waving, and company jargon.

 

You know why he was (supposedly) their "only" and "first" choice? Because of his time in Dallas, not that three year stint here as an assistant. That three year stint doesn't define him, it is not what he is known for, and it isn't even comparable to Hextall's situation. Hextall has decades here. He's a part of "the Flyers family". Hitch is just a guy who passed through.

 

I understand you're relying on your standard "nope, sorry" response position, so we'll just agree to differ.

[canoli]

Hextall has decades here. He's a part of "the Flyers family". Hitch is just a guy who passed through.

 

that's certainly how it seems to me. Hextall is as much a Flyer as anyone besides the original BSB guys and that's only because they're in a class by themselves.

[ruxpin]

I understand you're relying on your standard "nope, sorry" response position, so we'll just agree to differ.

 

 

I think I can accept either side of the argument in classifying Hitch as inside/outside, but I think personally I would lean toward what fanatic is saying:

 

He was brought in more for his stanley cup pedigree than for his 3 unremarkable three year stint as an assistant.   

 

Having said that, the Flyers do have a tendency to go for comfort.  There are other successful coaches available.  I'm sure their comfort/history with him made the deal much easier.

[fanaticV3.0]

I understand you're relying on your standard "nope, sorry" response position, so we'll just agree to differ.

 

I think this pretty much sums of my feelings on the matter.

[ruxpin]

"We don't need a new perspective. We're a winner."

[fanaticV3.0]

that's certainly how it seems to me. Hextall is as much a Flyer as anyone besides the original BSB guys and that's only because they're in a class by themselves.

 

I think the Flyers - and by that I mean Snider - have a preference for people they know. Whether that's a good, bad, or irrelevant factor, I'll get to in a minute. I also think if you're going to use an example of hiring within the organization, a guy who wasn't here at the current time, made his mark as a part of another organization for a decade (one year in which he won a cup), and only spent 3 seasons here.....as an assistant, isn't the best example. Especially if you are comparing him to Hextall, who is one of the most recognizable Flyers of all time. I think there are much more accurate comparisons and examples of "hiring within" to be made.

 

Going back to my original point, I do think Snider is an a-hole. He's a tired, angry, stubborn, old man who really needs to go. I'm fairly sure they won't see a cup until he steps aside, allows his personnel to do their job, or is simply not healthy/coherent enough to be involved anymore. However, I object Eskin's logic. Lavi was from outside the organization. So was Nielson, Cashman, and I would even throw in Hitch. I might even throw in Ramsay, because 1 years as an assistant isn't exactly being embedded in the "Flyers family". He has hired guys close to home a lot, but it's not the only type of person he's gone after.

 

Now back to my point about looking to people you know. Some people were thrilled when Hextall was brought in because of his time in LA. Some see it as simply hiring another one of the good old boys. Personally, I don't think it matters much. Playing favorites can definitely cloud your judgement and hurt the team, but I don't outright eliminate anyone just because they used to play here. The reason I say it does not matter is because I don't think Snider will let them do their job. Snider could hire Ken Holland and Toe Blake and they'd fail to win here.

[fanaticV3.0]

"We don't need a new perspective. We're a winner."

I can totally see Snider seeing that clip and thinking it applies to the media "not getting it" and totally missing it was actually about him. Dude is that far gone.

[aziz]

However, I object Eskin's logic.

 

here is his logic:

 

 

Executive Management

Chairman Ed Snider

President and C.O.O. of Comcast-Spectacor  Peter Luukko

General Manager Paul Holmgren

Senior Vice President  Bob Clarke

Executive Vice President  Keith Allen

Governor  Ed Snider

Alternate Governors Peter Luukko, Phil Weinberg

Senior Vice President, Business Operations Shawn Tilger

Executive Assistant Ann Marie Nasuti

Executive Assistant Cheri Arnao

Executive Assistant Sharon Allison  

 

Hockey Club Personnel

Assistant General Manager & Director of Hockey Operations  Ron Hextall

Assistant General Manager  Barry Hanrahan

Head Coach Craig Berube

Assistant Coach Ian Laperriere

Assistant Coach Joe Mullen

Assistant Coach John Paddock

Goaltending Coach Jeff Reese

Video Coach Adam Patterson

Player Development Derian Hatcher

Player Development Kjell Samuelsson

Director of Scouting Chris Pryor 

Head of Pro Scouting Dave Brown

Pro Scout John Chapman

Pro Scout Al Hill

Pro Scout Don Luce

College Scout Wade Clarke

College Scout Ross Fitzpatrick

Scout Andre Beaulieu

Scout Mark Greig

Scout Joakim Grundberg

Scout Todd Hearty

Scout Ken Hoodikoff

Scout Neil Little

Scout Jack McIlhargey

Scout Antero Niittymaki

Scout Simon Nolet

Scout Dennis Patterson

Scout Nick Pryor

Scout John Riley

Scout Ilkka Sinisalo

Scout Vaclav Slansky  

Director of Team Services Bryan Hardenbergh

Executive Assistant Dianna Taylor  

Executive Assistant Jody Clarke

 

maybe you are right, maybe hitchcock isn't a particularly good example of what we are talking about.  the above list is.  when THAT much of your management was hired with a primary qualification of "was a flyer", there is a problem.  when a new head coach is hired with the primary qualification is "was a flyer", there is a problem.  when two GMs, back to back, were hired with the primary qualifications of "were flyers", there is a problem.  eskin's question needed to be asked, and frankly needed to be answered.  there is no reason i can see to think berube has any idea at all how to coach a hockey team at the NHL level.  there was no looking around, though.  no interim title while a search was conducted.  a good soldier is standing right there, he wore the jersey for a long time, jumps as high as we tell him, put him behind the bench.  in the GM's office.  have him run player developement.  let him scout.  none of these things apparently have skill sets associated with them beyond having played at one time for the right team.  you say you think the team is doomed until snider is out of the picture.  here is the reason why.  he surrounds himself with sycophants in vital positions, actual job qualifications be damned.

Edited October 16, 2013 by aziz

[Mad Dog]

@aziz

 

Probably the only point that is worth making is pointing to the Avalance.  Both Sakic and Roy are the ex players been put in very high respective positions.  Both *seem* to be doing a fairly decent job with righting the ship in Denver, thus far at least.

 

Unlike Roy and Sakic, of the most recent and current executives with the Flyers who have been promoted, only Clarke is Roy/Sakic caliber player. But that's a whole different matter.  Sometimes a HOFer does not automatically translate to a good coach or a good GM. 

Edited October 17, 2013 by Mad Dog

[canoli]

@aziz

 

well that's an impressive list of names and its existence seems to make your point for you, all by itself. But of course it doesn't because unless you truly know these guys, their skills and qualifications, whether they actually do their jobs well, who hired them (let's not pretend Ed hires every scout) etc. - well then it's kind of a pointless list isn't it?

 

Don't get me wrong I probably agree with your larger point, that Snider surrounds himself with "yes" men. And the Berube move is just the latest poster child for his style of management. But really. Does "Scout Joakim Grundberg" have what it takes to spot talent? I don't know. Do you? How about the rest of them?

 

Of course if I missed the point of the list then please excuse my reply; I never claimed to be the sharpest knife in the drawer.

[fanaticV3.0]

here is his logic:

 

 

Executive Management

Chairman Ed Snider

President and C.O.O. of Comcast-Spectacor  Peter Luukko

General Manager Paul Holmgren

Senior Vice President  Bob Clarke

Executive Vice President  Keith Allen

Governor  Ed Snider

Alternate Governors Peter Luukko, Phil Weinberg

Senior Vice President, Business Operations Shawn Tilger

Executive Assistant Ann Marie Nasuti

Executive Assistant Cheri Arnao

Executive Assistant Sharon Allison  

 

Hockey Club Personnel

Assistant General Manager & Director of Hockey Operations  Ron Hextall

Assistant General Manager  Barry Hanrahan

Head Coach Craig Berube

Assistant Coach Ian Laperriere

Assistant Coach Joe Mullen

Assistant Coach John Paddock

Goaltending Coach Jeff Reese

Video Coach Adam Patterson

Player Development Derian Hatcher

Player Development Kjell Samuelsson

Director of Scouting Chris Pryor 

Head of Pro Scouting Dave Brown

Pro Scout John Chapman

Pro Scout Al Hill

Pro Scout Don Luce

College Scout Wade Clarke

College Scout Ross Fitzpatrick

Scout Andre Beaulieu

Scout Mark Greig

Scout Joakim Grundberg

Scout Todd Hearty

Scout Ken Hoodikoff

Scout Neil Little

Scout Jack McIlhargey

Scout Antero Niittymaki

Scout Simon Nolet

Scout Dennis Patterson

Scout Nick Pryor

Scout John Riley

Scout Ilkka Sinisalo

Scout Vaclav Slansky  

Director of Team Services Bryan Hardenbergh

Executive Assistant Dianna Taylor  

Executive Assistant Jody Clarke

 

maybe you are right, maybe hitchcock isn't a particularly good example of what we are talking about.  the above list is.  when THAT much of your management was hired with a primary qualification of "was a flyer", there is a problem.  when a new head coach is hired with the primary qualification is "was a flyer", there is a problem.  when two GMs, back to back, were hired with the primary qualifications of "were flyers", there is a problem.  eskin's question needed to be asked, and frankly needed to be answered.  there is no reason i can see to think berube has any idea at all how to coach a hockey team at the NHL level.  there was no looking around, though.  no interim title while a search was conducted.  a good soldier is standing right there, he wore the jersey for a long time, jumps as high as we tell him, put him behind the bench.  in the GM's office.  have him run player developement.  let him scout.  none of these things apparently have skill sets associated with them beyond having played at one time for the right team.  you say you think the team is doomed until snider is out of the picture.  here is the reason why.  he surrounds himself with sycophants in vital positions, actual job qualifications be damned.

 

I didn't know Niittymäki was with the club. I was wondering what happened to him.

 

Hey, I'm not disagreeing he hires a lot of people he has previous experience with. The proof is - as they say - in the pudding. But he has brought in coaches that have little or no ties to the organization. He has abandoned the bigger = better philosophy. The team has gotten smaller faster players for years now. Could they benefit from a few people with a different perspective? Probably, but only if he lets them do their job. He's too hands on. It doesn't matter who the person is or where they come from, if he interferes too much, that person isn't going to be able to do their job. That's the issue, not who he hired.

 

Christ, the guy who just got canned had no connection to the organization at all and that is the time Eskin chooses to ask that question? It's disingenuous. Eskin is disingenuous. He doesn't give a damn about hockey. He asked a question he knew would get him attention.

 

I'm curious what your feelings are about the Hextall hiring? I know it kind of falls under hiring one of the good old boys, but does the fact that he's an internal (family not organization at that point) hire negate his role in LA's success?

[aziz]

@fanaticV3.0

Truthfully, I'm all conflicted about the hextall thing. On the one hand, favorite flyer ever, boyhood hero. On the other, to what extent does a Vice President / Assistant General Manager really do, and how much of a role does the position have in the actual wins and losses of the team he works for? Did he really have something to do with LA's Cup?

In the same breath, I also don't know what a Director of Hockey Operations does, I think he books hotels, finds lost luggage, and makes sure there is hot water for the resurfacer at WFC. So he is probably doing that job just fine. Does that mean he would make a good General Manager?

[fanaticV3.0]

@fanaticV3.0

Truthfully, I'm all conflicted about the hextall thing. On the one hand, favorite flyer ever, boyhood hero. On the other, to what extent does a Vice President / Assistant General Manager really do, and how much of a role does the position have in the actual wins and losses of the team he works for? Did he really have something to do with LA's Cup?

In the same breath, I also don't know what a Director of Hockey Operations does, I think he books hotels, finds lost luggage, and makes sure there is hot water for the resurfacer at WFC. So he is probably doing that job just fine. Does that mean he would make a good General Manager?

 

I am too. Part of me is like "he's just another former player" and the other part of me is like "but LA". I do have to admit though, I don't know what he did in LA that was so great. I hear that he was an important part of their club and have several times, but no details.

[ruxpin]

I don't know what he did in LA that was so great

 

I heard he made EXCELLENT coffee!

[murraycraven]

@aziz

 

Probably the only point that is worth making is pointing to the Avalance.  Both Sakic and Roy are the ex players been put in very high respective positions.  Both *seem* to be doing a fairly decent job with righting the ship in Denver, thus far at least.

 

Unlike Roy and Sakic, of the most recent and current executives with the Flyers who have been promoted, only Clarke is Roy/Sakic caliber player. But that's a whole different matter.  Sometimes a HOFer does not automatically translate to a good coach or a good GM. 

 

 

Just ask Gretzky

[fanaticV3.0]

I heard he made EXCELLENT coffee!

 

That is a quality that cannot be underestimated. Bad coffee makes for a cranky work place.