Snider - What a *******!

[jammer2]

The Flyers situation looks similar to the Blackhawks when old man was still living. The fans stayed away and once he died the culture in that organization changed, they sucked and were able to draft Toews, Seabrook and luck out drafting Kane. But until Snider moves on to the big ice rink in the sky, nothing is going to change in Flyers land.

 

 That just about covers it all.

[pilldoc]

"We don't need a fresh perspective," he said.
Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/20131008_Flyers__culture_needs_refreshening.html#Drg0DbAiJ85ALXr1.99

 

I think this says it all .  The sheer arrogance is absolutely stunning here.  And people wonder why this team has not won the cup recently.

 

Hey Ed....wake the eff up...this is the "new" NHL..not the NHL you helped build nor the NHL when the Flyers last won the cup!  Getting a new perspective is exactly what this team needs.

 

PS...I still love my Flyers...but I am really starting to hate Mr. Snider more and more....

Edited October 8, 2013 by pilldoc

[pilldoc]

 That just about covers it all.

yup....I think most of us will agree......things will not really change until Ed goes....

[The Quigster]

Do you mean"until Ed and Clarkie goes?

[canoli]

Well, it is a stupid question in many ways, but in the most critical way, it cuts at the heart of what Snider, Holmgren, and Berube are. They are cut from the Flyers cloth. This is a family to them, it has given them great memories, jobs, financial security. They have poured their heart and soul into the organization, and have been rewarded by it. They have seen ups and downs.

So, for an outsider to come in and say "is there something wrong with your culture" is a direct insult at the heart of what these guys represent. Wouldn't you be pissed if someone questioned the way you raised your kids?

I'm not saying I agree with how they do things... I think it's pretty clear from my posts that I do not. But I understand how much they are defined by their experiences with the Flyers organization.

 

Jeez where are you in the other thread where I've been trying to say this for 2 days now...fumbling it, getting sidetracked...but making this exact point: you come at Ed with a question like that you're basically telling a father he's abused his son.

 

I don't know whether I agree or disagree with "how they do things." Cup or Bust type of fans hate it I guess. I've enjoyed almost every Flyers' season since I started watching them. We've had some wild rides and the more unpredictable ones have been some of the best. 2010 will always stand out as incredible. But just yesterday it was labeled "accidental success." I got the point, we *just* made the POs on the last day... but we got to Game 6 of the Final. Talk about glass-half-empty...how do you reason with fans like that, who see their team go beyond every other team except the Champs ... and call it "accidental success," as if it doesn't deserve any regard, any respect at all? They stumbled into it blind I guess and every team they faced sucked; all the good ones got knocked out early...etc. 

 

I swear if we ever do win the Cup guaranteed we'll see "It's about Time! WTF took so long?" 2 minutes after the game ends. ha!

[brelic]

We've had some wild rides and the more unpredictable ones have been some of the best. 2010 will always stand out as incredible. But just yesterday it was labeled "accidental success." I got the point, we *just* made the POs on the last day... but we got to Game 6 of the Final. Talk about glass-half-empty...how do you reason with fans like that, who see their team go beyond every other team except the Champs ... and call it "accidental success," as if it doesn't deserve any regard, any respect at all? They stumbled into it blind I guess and every team they faced sucked; all the good ones got knocked out early...etc.

Completely agree with you. Did LA accidentally win a Stanley Cup? Nope. They won a Cup beyond expectations. But there are no accidents in the playoffs. They won the Cup because they were the best team from April to June.

And when I said that Holmgren and Snider are defined by their experiences with the Flyers org, I should have added that they have also defined it in a big way.

I don't know whether I agree or disagree with "how they do things."

I've also enjoyed just about every Flyers season except for the crap-fest when we got robbed of 1st overall and got JVR. That was a painful season to watch. Imagine watching 4-5-6 seasons like that, which is almost what it takes to build through the draft. That's how you end up with elite level players on your team.

Who do we have? Giroux. You might be able to add Lecavalier to that list, though he is in decline.

Chicago? Toews, Kane, Keith, and Hossa.

Pens? Crosby, Malkin, Letang.

Bruins? Chara, Rask.

Each of those has at least one elite-level defender.

The Wings also had that with Lidstrom alongside Datsyuk and Zetterberg. He's gone, and they haven't been as successful.

So, when they make moves like shipping off Bobrovsky, Richards, Carter, and then make the signings they do like Bryzgalov, Lecavalier, Streit, Hartnell's extension, Pronger (without understanding the 35+ rules), it's frustrating as a fan. It's like they hit the reset button every couple of years at the first sign of turbulence. They don't let the team come through on the other side of that as a stronger *team*.

Between the coach and goalie carousel, I think the high roster turnover gets forgotten.

None of this will change under Snider. If anyone had a glimmer of hope that things could be different, I think Snider's defiance yesterday slammed the door shut on that notion.

All that to say that I can and do enjoy individual Flyers seasons... it's the best time of year for me. But at the same time, to paraphrase Darth Vader, I find their lack of plan disturbing.

[fanaticV3.0]

If any of you watched the 5 minute presser Snider is an absolute A-hole!  No wonder this Team is in such dismay!   The guy cant see past the seventies mentality and is arrogant as can be.

 

I hate Eskin but was impressed he was pressing Snider and Homer...

 

I agree with you the guy is in his own world where one does not question King Edward, but I thought it was kind of a stupid question. Two of their last three coaches were from outside the organization. It's not like they haven't tried a different approach, especially recently. The biggest problem is the old man interferes too much. I also disagree he can't see past the 70s mentality. The team has made an attempt to get much smaller and faster in recent years. There's a difference between trying and failing and not trying at all. He's a dick and I can't wait until he's out of the front office, but the organization has tried different things over the years, especially more recently.

 

Eskin is a total phony too. The guy doesn't give a damn about hockey, but when the opportunity to put himself in the spotlight presents itself, he acts like an expert.

[fanaticV3.0]

But there are no accidents in the playoffs.

 

The 09-10 Flyers prove otherwise.

[brelic]

There's a difference between trying and failing and not trying at all. He's a dick and I can't wait until he's out of the front office, but the organization has tried different things over the years, especially more recently.

Right. And IIRC, that's one fundamental difference between Snider and Wirtz in Chicago. They just stopped investing in the team.

[brelic]

The 09-10 Flyers prove otherwise.

I don't see it that way. They made it to the SCF and it's not like the Hawks steamrolled us. That ping-pong Game 1 was up for grabs and probably changes the dynamic of the series if we win it.

I know a lot of people think we had an easy path, but the supposedly easy teams also defeated the supposed stronger teams. Seeding is just who you play... everything after that is about who shows up on the ice.

Are you telling me The Richards Shift, the Giroux OT Winner, Gagne's historic winning goal to complete the comeback, Leighton's three shutouts against Montreal, Pronger's puck theft to deflect media attention - all of that was just an accident? In those playoffs, those 23 guys were a *team*.

Maybe you see it that way, but to me, it was the most exciting Flyers playoff run I've ever seen in my life.

[canoli]

I know a lot of people think we had an easy path, but the supposedly easy teams also defeated the supposed stronger teams. Seeding is just who you play... everything after that is about who shows up on the ice.

 

Exactly right, "supposedly easy teams"..."supposed strong teams" (emphasis mine), that's key.

 

Apparently the Pens weren't one of the best teams that year or else they would've beaten the Habs. Neither were the President Trophy-winning Caps; they couldn't get out of the 1st round either.

 

I understand "accidental" if it means "lucky." But getting lucky is part of the plan of every Cup-winning team. It doesn't diminish the Flyers in any way just because some higher-seeded teams choked.

 

For me that 2010 run is tied with the '87 series for most exciting. Which one ranks on top? I dunno. Taking the Oilers Dynasty team to 7 games...Gretzky, Kuri, Messier, Fuhr, Coffey etc. or the Miracle Comeback that was really 2 miracles, 0-3 in games, down 3-0 in G7 after 15 minutes. Holycrap I still get psyched thinking about it now. How the hell did the Flyers pull that off?

 

[edit: I wonder - does anyone believe that because they lost in those Finals, didn't win the Cup that the whole run was useless, it meant nothing? I wonder. Maybe I'm reading into their posts too much, or misinterpreteing them. I don't mean to. I'm thinking of posts by MadDog mostly, and Rad too, Rux somewhat...Poulin, maybe Murray?

 

If they do think like that all I can say is it must be *really* hard on them to be Flyers' fans - LOL. It's hard enough for me and I'm not even close to a "Cup or Nothing" kind of guy.]

Edited October 8, 2013 by canoli

[radoran]

[edit: I wonder something - does anyone think that because they lost in the Final, didn't win the Cup that the whole run was useless, it meant nothing? I wonder. I have a feeling some posters here think like that. Must be hard on them to be Flyers' fans is all I can say! lol]

 

No. It didn't mean "nothing" - it meant another year they didn't win.

 

The record-setting winning streak is what got 12-year-old me firmly into the hockey camp. '74 and '75 were nice, but my parents weren't hockey fans and I was all of 6 and 7 for the Bullies.

 

They, of course, should have won that Cup. It's 4:05 PM, do you know where Leon Stickle is?

 

The Final against the Oilers was another thrill.

 

I enjoyed the 1997 run - and still believe if they had reacted to that differently than replacing Murray with a guy who had never coached before (and hasn't since) they might have been back to the Final before 2010.

 

I enjoyed the 2000 run. But when it ended, I took my Lindros jersey off and put it under my bed. Still, to this day, not entirely sure where it is. That was the end of that era and it felt that way.

 

The "Primeau" run to the Conference Final was another - although it also began to show the problems inherent in "win now" attitudes. Again they put a patchwork together (still can't believe the Zhamnov-Markov-Malakhov "troika" was a Flyer thing).

 

The 2010 run - coming back to beat Boston in a doubly-historic fashion - incredible. Cannot, of course, be thought of anyone's "plan" to qualify for the playoffs on the last shot of the last game of the season, then bank on going down 3-0 in a series and down 3-0 on the road in Game 7. "Luck" is a part of any run. And "luck" showed how fickle a mistress it is when Leaky let in the Cup winner.

 

Nevertheless, none of it compares to the experience of being on Broad Street the night the Phillies won and then going to the parade two days later. None of it.

 

Not even a little.

 

And I expect that Phillies experience to pale in comparison if the Flyers win again.

 

For me, anyway.

[canoli]

Thank you that was a good read - brought back some great memories - painful ones too.. I don't quite know how to read "another year they didn't win" (depressing "sucks as usual"? or accepting "screw it we'll get em next time?) but all in all your answer put things in perspective and I hope more fans here feel the same way. I wanted to guage how deep the disenchantment goes and whether it all stems from Ed Snider's continuing (and seemingly never-ending) reign.

 

The '87 Final is probably my all-time favorite 2 weeks of Flyers' hockey. The entire 2010 run ranks right up there too. Nope nothing planned about that (!) but it sure made for some exciting Flyers' hockey. That's why - don't you see? - when I read yet again what an abomination Ed Snider is I have to wonder...don't these guys watch the games? Haven't we had seen some amazing times with the Flyers? I know it sucks we haven't won the Cup in almost 40 years but does that mean everything sucks? I'm glad to hear your answer is a resounding "No."

[radoran]

Thank you that was a good read - brought back some great memories - painful ones too.. I don't quite know how to read "another year they didn't win" (depressing "sucks as usual"? or accepting "screw it we'll get em next time?) but all in all your answer put things in perspective and I hope more fans here feel the same way. I wanted to guage how deep the disenchantment goes and whether it all stems from Ed Snider's continuing (and seemingly never-ending) reign.

 

The '87 Final is probably my all-time favorite 2 weeks of Flyers' hockey. The entire 2010 run ranks right up there too. Nope nothing planned about that (!) but it sure made for some exciting Flyers' hockey. That's why - don't you see? - when I read yet again what an abomination Ed Snider is I have to wonder...don't these guys watch the games? Haven't we had seen some amazing times with the Flyers? I know it sucks we haven't won the Cup in almost 40 years but does that mean everything sucks? I'm glad to hear your answer is a resounding "No."

 

If the Flyers had an owner who was a true, behind-the-scenes, don't-get-involved type, Snider wouldn't enter into it.

 

But here's a guy who says he made the call to end the "goalie carousel" and then says he doesn't get involved in player decisions. After sending his private jet to collect the player.

 

A guy who says he doesn't make the call on coaches, but fired a coach and a GM on the same day at the same time. Was the last thing the previous GM did was to decide not to keep the coach or was that the first thing the new GM did before he was even introduced?

 

A guy who says "you can't change the players" and yet has all of FOUR guys remaining from the Finals appearance three years ago.

 

A guy who points out that the team has hired from outside before and his first three examples are Shero, Keenan and Quinn. Quinn last coached the Flyers in 1986 - the year I graduated high school. Again, five of the six post-Cup Finals appearances were with "outside" coaches and they fired the other guy the year after getting to the Final.

 

Of the other teams to get to the Final six or more times since 1975, ALL of them have won Cups. Of the other teams that have gotten to the Final twice or more since 1997, all of them have won Cups.

 

The point is, it's not that I don't think Snider, Homer, et. al. don't "want to win." It's not that I don't think they are "committed to the Flyers." 

 

It's that I just don't think they're very good at it.

 

Feel the same way about Congress. 

 

Still love America.

[brelic]

For me that 2010 run is tied with the '87 series for most exciting. Which one ranks on top? I dunno.

 

Yeah, that was pretty epic... but I was too young to really get what was going on. I was enjoying it as a kid (and isn't that the best time to enjoy sports, really?) as an isolated event. I was a huge Flyers fan but had no access to TV broadcasts unless they played Canadian teams or if they made it far enough in the playoffs. Tough times before the Internet, LOL!

[fanaticV3.0]

Right. And IIRC, that's one fundamental difference between Snider and Wirtz in Chicago. They just stopped investing in the team.

 

There's nothing I can do about that and it's really besides the point (whether they've changed their approach or not).

 

And to be completely honest, I don't think anything would get Snider to take a step back. He's simply incapable of it. Sure, he would notice if people stopped coming to the games, but there's no way you ever get that guy to take a more hands off approach.

Edited October 11, 2013 by fanaticV3.0

[fanaticV3.0]

I don't see it that way. They made it to the SCF and it's not like the Hawks steamrolled us. That ping-pong Game 1 was up for grabs and probably changes the dynamic of the series if we win it.

I know a lot of people think we had an easy path, but the supposedly easy teams also defeated the supposed stronger teams. Seeding is just who you play... everything after that is about who shows up on the ice.

Are you telling me The Richards Shift, the Giroux OT Winner, Gagne's historic winning goal to complete the comeback, Leighton's three shutouts against Montreal, Pronger's puck theft to deflect media attention - all of that was just an accident? In those playoffs, those 23 guys were a *team*.

Maybe you see it that way, but to me, it was the most exciting Flyers playoff run I've ever seen in my life.

 

Teams show up for more than 23 games, that's my point.

 

Teams don't wait until the last day of the season to make the POs, comeback from an 0-3 deficit, and have a nobody goalie who has the run of his career. We're not talking about one of these things happening, but all three. It was a fluke and will never happen again.

 

They were an example of wasted potential. They were an example of what can happen if people with talent decide to show the f-ck up. Even that being said, that team goes nowhere without Pronger. Richards would have never pulled that sh!t off on his own. He is no leader. That's why LA is a good fit for him.

[ruxpin]

I don't think it really matters whether the coach is from within the organization or from outside. As @fanataicV3.0   correctly pointed out, 2 of the last 3 are from the outside.  Going back further, it's probably either even up or more from outside than from within.

 

It doesn't matter if the teams are still built in the same manner.   Where the "from the outside" / "from within" discussion really matters is in the GM's chair.   It's been 20 years of the Clarke/Holmgren bloodline.   20 years of no road map, no plan, but simply the knee jerk "ooh, shiney!" of acquiring players.  "We need a winger.  Let's go get a center and just stick  him there."   "We need a goalie.  Go down to the Salvation Army and see if anyone's donated one."  etc. etc. 

 

20 years of building from the center position and occasionally going outside it.  If we ARE going to have a fresh perspective, it's not coming from the head coach.  It needs to come from a change at GM/Chairman.

[canoli]

Even that being said, that team goes nowhere without Pronger. Richards would have never pulled that **** off on his own.

 

Not sure I get your point here. So okay...the "team goes nowhere without Pronger." Yes, and? Pronger was on the team; Richards skated that shift.

 

Are you saying it was all a fluke? Well the roster was no fluke, the way guys worked together was no fluke, it was the plan all along, the plan some Flyers' fans swear is non-existent.

 

...Pronger being a difference-maker was (a.k.a. "why we traded for him"), Richards finding new gears, higher levels of commitment to winning a shift, that was the plan for Richards alright. (btw he's still young so I wouldn't discount his leadership potential just yet)...There's tons more stuff you could label "part of the plan." ...Gagne scoring GWers, Hartnell scoring as he's falling over backwards (!), Lavy calling TOs at key moments, etc. on and on... 

 

I guess it just depends on how you want to look at things.

[ruxpin]

I guess it just depends on how you want to look at things

 

I have to agree that's what it comes down to (with no hint of sarcasm or irony).

 

I personally don't remember the 2010 season or playoffs with the same enjoyment as you and some others seem to.  Admittedly, had the finals gone differently, I would have gone to the parade just the same as anyone else, but I remember that season as dreadfully frustrating.   

 

I really don't see that season as anything resembling a plan.   This was a team that fired the coach 20 something games in and then struggled through the rest of the season.   They lost 6 of 7 at the end and I remember most were "blow it up!"   Then they won 3 of their last 4 and sneak into the playoffs on a shootout--of all things.   Did they win any other shootout that year?  I honestly don't remember (and it's not all that important after the fact since they won the one that mattered).

 

I guess it was @brelic that said something along the lines of "you have to beat who you play" in response to the idea that Montreal got to knock off the heavy hitters that year.   First, in retrospect, the true heavy hitter was probably Boston, who WE dispatched.   Again, it's up to the Flyers to take advantage of the situation, but we come back in that series not so much because of the mystical time outs or whatever, but because of injuries to Boston and their own implosion.

 

Look, even Los Angeles Kings fans must have had quite a bit of frustration throughout their Cup winning season.  They did finish 8th that year, so I can only imagine.   

 

But the 2009-10 Flyers season was one of simply horrible frustration and bumbling around that was somehow topped by a nice run at the end.   Sometimes you win that way, and I get the "depends how you look at it."   I'm just saying that personally, I don't remember that season with any fondness or desire to point to it as "there's an example of a plan!"

[fanaticV3.0]

I don't think it really matters whether the coach is from within the organization or from outside. As @fanataicV3.0   correctly pointed out, 2 of the last 3 are from the outside.  Going back further, it's probably either even up or more from outside than from within.

 

It doesn't matter if the teams are still built in the same manner.   Where the "from the outside" / "from within" discussion really matters is in the GM's chair.   It's been 20 years of the Clarke/Holmgren bloodline.   20 years of no road map, no plan, but simply the knee jerk "ooh, shiney!" of acquiring players.  "We need a winger.  Let's go get a center and just stick  him there."   "We need a goalie.  Go down to the Salvation Army and see if anyone's donated one."  etc. etc. 

 

20 years of building from the center position and occasionally going outside it.  If we ARE going to have a fresh perspective, it's not coming from the head coach.  It needs to come from a change at GM/Chairman.

 

It can't even come from the GM either if the old man doesn't allow it. That's the biggest problem. He needs to back off. He needs to hire people and let them run the business. This organization has gone through some drastic changes during my teen through adult years. Gone are the days of huge players. Gone are the days of a bias against foreigners. And we all know 2 of the last 3 coaches have been outsiders. None of that matters because the old man still stepped in. You can redo the entire front office and roster with a kind of player and personnel completely foreign to this organization. None of it is going to matter unless the old man lets them do their job.

[ruxpin]

@fanaticV3.0

 

 

 

It can't even come from the GM either if the old man doesn't allow it. That's the biggest problem.

 

Yeah, that's pretty much where I am as well.   Completely agree.

 

 

 This organization has gone through some drastic changes during my teen through adult years.

 

 

So, the last 3-4 years then.    

[fanaticV3.0]

Not sure I get your point here. So okay...the "team goes nowhere without Pronger." Yes, and? Pronger was on the team; Richards skated that shift.

 

Are you saying it was all a fluke? Well the roster was no fluke, the way guys worked together was no fluke, it was the plan all along, the plan some Flyers' fans swear is non-existent.

 

...Pronger being a difference-maker was (a.k.a. "why we traded for him"), Richards finding new gears, higher levels of commitment to winning a shift, that was the plan for Richards alright. (btw he's still young so I wouldn't discount his leadership potential just yet)...There's tons more stuff you could label "part of the plan." ...Gagne scoring GWers, Hartnell scoring as he's falling over backwards (!), Lavy calling TOs at key moments, etc. on and on... 

 

I guess it just depends on how you want to look at things.

 

My point is that team played the game wrong way. They showed up when they felt like it. They survived by the skin of their teeth. They got by on talent alone. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. It didn't in that case and without Pronger, they wouldn't have gotten that far. They might not have even made the POs that season.

[fanaticV3.0]

@fanaticV3.0

 

 

 

 

Yeah, that's pretty much where I am as well.   Completely agree.

 

 

 

So, the last 3-4 years then.    

 

That would be funny if I didn't feel like I was 90.Things hurt now and for no apparent reason! I get out of bed in the morning and am like WTF am I sore?

Edited October 11, 2013 by fanaticV3.0

[brelic]

It can't even come from the GM either if the old man doesn't allow it. That's the biggest problem. He needs to back off. He needs to hire people and let them run the business. This organization has gone through some drastic changes during my teen through adult years. Gone are the days of huge players. Gone are the days of a bias against foreigners. And we all know 2 of the last 3 coaches have been outsiders. None of that matters because the old man still stepped in. You can redo the entire front office and roster with a kind of player and personnel completely foreign to this organization. None of it is going to matter unless the old man lets them do their job.

^^ This is exactly it.

Even if Holmgren wanted to build a team for the long run, how can he do that when Snider basically tells him to go out and get a goalie? What about Richards and Carter? From what I've read, he was pretty intimately involved in shipping them out of town. What about signing Streit and Lecavalier? Homer was put on "high alert" to make the playoffs, so even if he wanted to plan long-term, he was boxed in by Snider.