ok..0-3 to start season...now what?

[jammer2]

@canoli  At least last year we had the built in excuse of "we didn't have a real training camp"...there is no excuse for how flat they look presently. I wish they had the jam to send Giroux to the press box for a few games. I'm really hoping there is lingering effects from the injury, cause if he is gonna play this way all year, he will be trashed by the fans and the press. Maybe Philly should have a 4 year limit on contract length, cause every time we doll out one of those 8-10 year deals, it is an epic fail.

[Lindbergh31]

@Mad Dog

I like your post and agree that the problem is very hard to identify. Each of the individual puzzle pieces seem okay, but I think some simply belong to different puzzles and simply don't go together. The result is a jumbled mess. The problem here isn't ON the ice, that's why it's harder to see. It's just that this team has been put together in such a way that it has no identity, no cohesion, no character, and no chemistry.

I do think mobility on the defense is an issue, but let me explain because it's possible I'm not really using the right word for it. They MOVE, so I guess they're mobILE. But they are not skating the puck out of the zone very well and they're not passing it out well either. I don't mean to complain about mobility in the way I did about Rathje (stand there as everyone skates by because you're slower than an Ent). My problem is they are not smooth with either the skating or the passing or even with the dump out. As a group, they seem incapable of making the right decision or of efficiently performing the task when they accidentally do make the right decision.

I see them getting bogged down in their own and most of the time their problems are self-inflicted.

That's what I (possibly incorrectly) meant by mobility. Just wanted to make sure that if we are going to disagree that we're actually talking about the same thing.

@ruxpin

 

Has it become as simple as the players tuning out what Lavi is preaching. Most fans realize this team isn't that good but Lavi's systems isn't working with these players. Why the hell isn't Gus in getting experience, Timonen isn't going to keep playing for the next 5 years so they need to develop Gus. Maybe it's time to get rid of Holmgren and Lavi and let's see what Hexie can do. Eventhough he's a former Flyer, he hasn't been in the organization in the last 7 years so maybe what he learned out in LA he can apply here. Something has to give because it's become painful to watch.

[ruxpin]

@ruxpin

 

Has it become as simple as the players tuning out what Lavi is preaching. Most fans realize this team isn't that good but Lavi's systems isn't working with these players. Why the hell isn't Gus in getting experience, Timonen isn't going to keep playing for the next 5 years so they need to develop Gus. Maybe it's time to get rid of Holmgren and Lavi and let's see what Hexie can do. Eventhough he's a former Flyer, he hasn't been in the organization in the last 7 years so maybe what he learned out in LA he can apply here. Something has to give because it's become painful to watch.

 

 

I think the players have tuned out what Lavi is preaching.   The thing is, I'm beginning to think that what Lavi is preaching ain't worth listening to.

 

Yes, clean out Holmgren AND Lavi and move on.

[ruxpin]

True enough, but my line of thinking is that cleaning out your staff completely during the season just wouldn't be wise. The assessment of Berube, Mullen & Reese can be done during the off-season.

 

 

I think that's a reasonable concern and agree cleaning out the whole staff all at once wouldn't be wise.

[Howie58]

Doc, good question.  Now what...  Most likely tomorrow morning the Flyers will hold a closed-door players-only meeting.  And they will go over some stuff... I am sure.

 

But the reality is, I agree that this is nothing more than a continuation of the last season.  They don't look terrible, but they are clearly not an elite team.  Not only they are not an elite team; right now they look very much like a team who is going to miss the playoffs.  They will eventually win the first game of the season I am sure.  They will also win a good deal of games.  But something is missing with this team.  For the first time I followed this team I am watching intently and I can't even identify what it is that's plaguing them.  If in previous years it was easy to pinpoint the problem... whether it was goaltending, or transition, or inability to generate the offence, I am not sure what it is this year.  I mean as you watch this team play, you can see this is a flawed team.  No doubt.  But I don't know what it is.  The players don't seem to be on the same page.  There are missed opportunities.  There are sloppy plays.  I disagree with those who indicated the lack of mobility is an issue.  I really don't see much of that.  But the players are just not clicking.

 

It would be interesting to see what happens next.  I will say the next week is probably going to be very crticitical in the status of Laviolette.  Beyond that, I am just going to seat back and watch.

Excellent Assessment!  Howie

[Howie58]

Greetings:

 

My only positive observation after three games is that our goaltending seems to be OK.  I thought Mason kept it close tonight. But the rest of the troops look disorganized and disinterested with the exceptions of Read, Vinnny, and Rinaldo.  Their PP is inept and they can't get the puck out of the zone.

 

I concur with others in this thread that offing Lavi is scapegoating. Holmgren is as much the problem.  Yes...we may be back to 2006-7.

 

Peace,

Howie

[aziz]

So please stop saying everyone is panicking b/c we dont drink the f'n Orange Kool Aid.

 

a thought:  asking people to stop dismissing your opinion as panic and then dismissing theirs as drinking kool aid isn't the highest form of diplomacy.

[ruxpin]

a thought: asking people to stop dismissing your opinion as panic and then dismissing theirs as drinking kool aid isn't the highest form of diplomacy.

Completely agree. Because we all know that high diplomacy actually requires large amounts of alcohol

[iban3z]

I really wish they didn't send Laugton down so fast. I also wish Coburn were traded and we had a good two way player like a 33 year old Gagne who would have taken 1.3 million. Simple Changes...

 

Why Chris Newbury? Why Jay Rosehill?  I love Talbot but he's not a third liner.  I've been inspired to write a blog now. 

 

Read that in about an hour.

[ruxpin]

like a 33 year old Gagne

 

I thought you said good two-way player.

[hf101]

So this is how the Flyers expect to win games:  Dump - Chase - Hit

 

 

[brelic]

I really wish they didn't send Laugton down so fast.

Yeah, he's got 9 points in 3 games since being sent back. 4th line minutes here aren't great, but he's not going to be learning too much this year dominating the OHL.

The AHL would probably be the best place for him this season. Too bad about the restrictive agreement.

[canoli]

good god. 3 games and it's "dump the coach, dump the GM, dump everyone who's ever been associated with the Flyers since 1975...." on and on.

 

if you don't see we have better players than last year...II don't know what to tell you. You can label all the moves as "rejects for rejects" but that's not just overly simplistic it's wrong. Then again maybe you prefer Briere over Lecavalier? Gervais and Foster instead of Streit? Goaltending?

 

Of course they all better get their collective heads out of their asses - and right soon. The nervous ninnies are already talking trades and fire all the things. As if running to the pool of non-signed players, or players other teams are willing to trade 3 games in we'll find some fabulous gem who will save the Flyers from having to learn to work as a TEAM. Unreal.

[ruxpin]

if you don't see we have better players than last year...II don't know what to tell you you have a pretty good idea what you're talking about

 

Fixed it for you.

 

If you don't see exactly the same product as last year, I don't know what to tell YOU.  We've had this exact conversation for several seasons, and in nearly each of them (if not all), you've come around mid-season.   Why don't you save yourself the trouble and notice the horse with no legs right out of the gate?

[ruxpin]

Seriously, @canoli

 

I really like you as a poster and you've been around forever, but you're so concerned about arguing glass half-full vs. half-empty that you fail to realize the glass contains dog ****.

[brelic]

good god. 3 games and it's "dump the coach, dump the GM, dump everyone who's ever been associated with the Flyers since 1975...." on and on.

Some of us don't see it as 3 games in, but 120 games of the same pattern.

if you don't see we have better players than last year...II don't know what to tell you. You can label all the moves as "rejects for rejects" but that's not just overly simplistic it's wrong. Then again maybe you prefer Briere over Lecavalier? Gervais and Foster instead of Streit? Goaltending?

I can only speak for myself, but I don't think we're having the same conversation.

You see a choice between Briere and Lecavalier. I see it as choosing Lecavalier over Schenn, Couturier, and Laughton for the next 5 years.

You see a choice between Gervais/Foster and Streit. I see it as choosing Streit over Gus for the next 4 years. For Gervais/Foster, I see Gill as their replacement though I would prefer Lauridsen.

For goaltending, they made the only reasonable choice after offering an unreasonable contract and shipping off the future Vezina winner.

I'm not just paying lip service when I say I'm willing to have a few bad years in the name of developing the team a different way. But I don't sign the cheques and I don't have a board and shareholders to answer to.

I don't think you and I disagree, necessarily... I just don't think we're having the same conversation.

[ruxpin]

Very well said, @brelic

[canoli]

well maybe Brel but I'm trying to stick with reality and not fantasy - not "what I wish the Flyers would've done." As i said on Day One of FA (and before) I didn't want Streit and I didn't want Vinny. I wanted Bryzgalov gone and THAT WAS IT. I thought (think) Gus is ready and so is Ollie for full-time NHL minutes.

 

But I'm not the GM. We have to deal with what's in front of us. Calling for Homer's head or Lavy to step down or "no more dump 'n chase" just seems silly to me. If they go 0-10 you can be sure heads will roll. But meanwhile - MEANWHILE - yes the Flyers are better for the moves they made. LeCav is better than Briere, Streit is better than Foster/Gervais and he's also better than Gus/Ollie. Do I like the moves? No not really. But I can't pretend they didn't make us better.

 

Rux you're a funny guy no doubt about it. I love the glass full of dogshi- visual! lol. But you've been bchn for 10 years now and it's always the same thing - The Grass is Greener OVER THERE you guys, let's go over THERE!

 

and then we get there and it's the same old deal, which boils down to: Guess what it's HARD to win the Stanley Cup and just because the Flyers haven't won it in 40 years doesn't mean they suck and completely suck and will forever suck.

 

[edit: sucking suck sucking]

Edited October 7, 2013 by canoli

[DaGreatGazoo]

We need a defense first philosophy

 

Hello, Terry Murray.  He was fird in LA for being TOO defensive minded.  If you can believe that.

\

[ruxpin]

and then we get there and it's the same old deal,

 

But here's the thing, canoli, we've NEVER gotten there.  That's the rub.   We've kept doing the same crap.   And I completely disagree we're even an iota better than last year.   

 

I wanted Holmgren gone last year and over the summer.  He's done NOTHING whatsoever to change that opinion.  In fact, he spent the summer doing exactly what I've been bitching about since 2007.   I would prefer such a change made over the summer rather than the first month of a young season, but we're here.  So do it and move on.   Hextall wasn't brought in to make photo copies and fetch coffee.  So just cut the cord and get on with it.   Same with the coach.   

[ruxpin]

it's always the same thing - The Grass is Greener OVER THERE you guys, let's go over THERE!

 

Actually, that's never really been my mantra.

 

[edit:  hit the post button by accident]

 

Alongside folks like @flyercanuck and @jammer2, (and others) I've all but screamed for a change in philosophy to developing from within and the Scotty Bowman "build from the back out."   If that's "over there," you have me, but I interpret that as "Buffalo did well this year with speed, go get THAT" followed by "XYZ team dominated with THIS feature, go get THAT."

 

Copying other teams' success simply means you're eternally a few steps behind the rest of the league.  Because by the time you've copied enough to be where that team WAS, someone else is winning with a new feature and is beating the feature you're emulating.

 

We (the Flyers) have no identity.  This happens when you're constantly reshuffling the lineup and adding and subtracting senior citizens or other teams' castoffs.  We have yet another season where people are yelling "let them gel" and we'll be doing the same exact thing next year.   

 

Building from within and from the net out gets you that identity.  It may ultimately be no more successful than any other plan (if the Cup is the sole definition of "sucess" but at least it's doing it the right way and having some semblance of continuity and a game plan.

 

So, we have never "gotten THERE" with respect to what myself or others have been bitching about since the first lockout.  We had accidental success the year we went to the finals, but that's it.

 

And these three games are simply a continuation of that.   If I'm reading a book and the first 7 chapters have completely sucked, and the first three pages of the eighth chapter sucks, I don't really need to wait until the 4th page or 10th page or whatever to declare "CHAPTER 8 SUCKS!"    It's just kind of experiential reasoning.

[murraycraven]

a thought:  asking people to stop dismissing your opinion as panic and then dismissing theirs as drinking kool aid isn't the highest form of diplomacy.

 

 

@ grump... that was not meant for you honestly so I hope you did not take offense.  And you are correct it was not diplomatic.  The point I was trying to stress is that there are folks who just think this Team has serious flaws and when state as such get blamed for panicking.  I look at this Team and think they have an outside chance at the playoffs.  Can they make it?  Sure...  but I also look at recent play (last year, preseason, etc...) and see the same issues...

 

Again, was not tyring to be a jerk...  take care

[ruxpin]

The point I was trying to stress is that there are folks who just think this Team has serious flaws and when state as such get blamed for panicking

 

Are you new here?

[aziz]

You see a choice between Briere and Lecavalier. I see it as choosing Lecavalier over Schenn, Couturier, and Laughton for the next 5 years.

You see a choice between Gervais/Foster and Streit. I see it as choosing Streit over Gus for the next 4 years. For Gervais/Foster, I see Gill as their replacement though I would prefer Lauridsen.

 

ok, but really, what difference does all of that really make?  laughton, gustaffson, lauridsen....we're talking about 3rd liners/2nd pair players here.  they aren't changing the team in a drastic way.  i don't see how lecavalier is doing anything negative to schenn and couturier...and i have to tell you, laughton not having a spot yet, not concerned about that at all.  streit over gustaffson, gustaffson will get his chance.  this is philadelphia.  someone on the blueline will get hurt at some point in the next two weeks.  lauridsen will get his chances, too.  no door has been slammed in their faces, they just haven't made the case that they are better options, yet.  

 

i'm not pleased with how the team is playing, not pleased with how it is built.  but i also don't think the fact that several mediocre prospects are playing minor league hockey A)has anything to do with it, or B)would change anything for the better had they been given spots.

[canoli]

The Flyers are descendants of the Broad Street Bullies and that's our "identity" for better or worse. There's no mystery about who we are. We're not the Flames or the former Thrashers, defined by one star player - and we're never going to be the Devils or the Wings. But we're not without an identity. Flyers' hockey is what it is. It's a combination of the BSB mentality (mostly in name-only for marketing purposes at this point) and the modern skill set. But the heart of the Flyers ever since the '72 season has been about tough mothers carrying their lunch pails to work ...the blue-collar ethic Philly thing.

 

But this discussion gets us nowhere imo. We're 0-3 and we need to win games ASAP. I thought that's what we were talking about not. Team philosophy can wait till we're .500 at least.