Gagne not happy with Flyers (article)

[canoli]

Reality Check:

 

nothing is this black and white. The Flyers aren't suddenly classless a-holes because of what happened with Gagne this summer. Likewise they've never been 100% classy either, as in "all the time." Right now we're hearing about some ugliness in how they dealt with Gagne but I'm sure we could find plenty of incidents over the Flyers' history when they proved themselves worthy of respect, of calling themselves a family that "takes care of its own."

 

The same idea applies to Gagne. I doubt he's been as "clueless" as you say Rux. We all know your penchant for the provocative jibe but calling his quote "whining" is a little over-the-top imho. Gagne seems like a pretty smart guy. What most likely happened with the quote is he dramatized the situation a bit for the reporter, making it sound like he'd been waiting on tenterhooks (whatever they are) all summer for a phone call from Homer and shunning other offers around the League. And his agent, who has *some* financial stake (!) in Gagne's future just sat on his hands for 3 months...doesn't exactly sound plausible does it?

 

The Flyers' reputation of being a "classy organization" didn't spring from nowhere; it wasn't just PR. Too many players (and ex-players), coaches and managers have attributed that trait to the Flyers over the years for it to be all PR. But of course having a good reputation doesn't preclude an organization from acting like a selfish dickhead. I guess if we scrutinized every interaction over the years between Flyers' management and its players my bet is the ledger would show (many) more "family, classy" incidents than "ugly, selfish" ones. Sure I'm guessing but odds are I'm right simply because we generally don't hear about the warm 'n fuzzy times; we hear about the screwups. Overlaying all of a club's dealings is the fact that NHL hockey teams are business ventures. I think the fans are the only ones ever confused about this particular aspect of the NHL.

 

[edit: As far as the list of "SHAFTED PLAYERS" I'd put Bob on it and leave Bryzgalov off it. I think I'd add Nitty (remember Homer's "he's damaged goods" quote?) and of course Lindros is the poster boy even if there was ugliness on all sides during that chapter of Flyers' history. Richards and Carter...? They didn't exactly suffer while they were here and in the long-run they both made out pretty well.]

Edited September 14, 2013 by canoli

[Leach27]

Unfortunately the ugly ones are the ones that stand out. How would explain the roger neilson situation???

 

 

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/clarke-claims-neilson-went-goofy-1.208862

[ruxpin]

Rux. We all know your penchant for the provocative jibe

 

 

Shhhh.   Someone may not have caught on yet.  If someone hasn't caught on to the fact that the Flyers don't always play nice, they might not have caught on to the provocative jibe thing either.

 

 

 

calling his quote "whining" is a little over-the-top imho

 

Good call.  Seriously.    But deliberately so since I'm trying to counter the incredibly over-the-top wide-eyed "oh my God, business isn't fair" stuff that was posted prior to my post.    Of course the truth is somewhere in the middle.  Your description of it is as good as any.  But I've found on this board (and others) that when there is one far to one side point of view being espoused that when someone comes in with the far and equally ridiculous opposite point of view, that someone (in this case you) will come in with a fairly good middle rationale and the conversation moderates somewhat. 

 

Whether it is exactly as you say or not it's hard to say (and I don't think you were making any claim that it was exactly).  But it's quite a bit more reasonable than anything prior to your post (including my own) and it's more likely it's something close to what you said rather than what was said before.

[ruxpin]

Unfortunately the ugly ones are the ones that stand out. How would explain the roger neilson situation???

 

 

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/clarke-claims-neilson-went-goofy-1.208862

 

 

I can only explain those whole couple of years, with the Neilson situation at the worst of it, as Clarke being a complete and utter bastard.

[Mad Dog]

One word: CLASSLESS.  That's what the Flyers are.  And this is coming from someone who loves this team with a passion and will never support any other team under ANY circumstances.  But how can Homer et al be so utterly two-faced and backstabbing?  I can hardly find any words to describe this. 

 

I don't care about someone being soft or not contributing anymore or this and that... You just don't treat people this way, period, especially someone like Gagne.  He has done nothing to deserve this.  End of story.

 

Terrible.  Just terrible.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Mad Dog

[canoli]

@Leach27

 

I can't begin to explain that because no one (and nothing) can. Rux has it right; that's the only explanation. And it makes sense too when you think about Clarke's playing career. I couldn't imagine Lappy or Talbot or a thousand other guys coming out with something like that...but Bobby Clarke? It wasn't *so* surprising. BC was a motherfkr to play against on the ice and that quote showed he's just as much of a mother to face off the ice.

[jammer2]

@ruxpin  Going back through time, some of the Flyer decisions were understandable. Carter and Richards were not on the same page as the org and paid the price with a cup victory. Even some big fans of those two understood it had to be done. The Bryz signing was a disaster from the get go, any business would have tried to get out from under that contract if at all possible.

 

 

  Gagne was different. He was a loyal soldier from the get go. It's not a big stretch to say Gagne in his prime, played a major role in advancing the Flyers through specific playoff rounds. Some of those series he dominated to the point it can be fair to say they would not have advanced without his scoring and excellent two way play. In other words, he was responsible for MILLIONS of dollars of revenue. Dear Lord, if you can't be loyal to someone like that, why should any of us respect any decision they make?

 

  THEN, he makes the ultimate sacrifice for the org, and goes to the equivalent of hockey hell in Tampa Bay. Did he have to go, NO, he WAIVED his no trade clause when he obviously didn't have to, so Homer could acquire Walker of all people. That is above and beyond, he did the org a favour there, and they owed him at that point.

 

  THEN, he is strung along, told not to negotiate with other teams even. Was it naive of Gagne not to investigate other teams?  Yeah, it probably was. But let's look at this from a Gagne perspective. He finished the year looking good as the winger on the top line, playing with G and Voracek. Was he slated there for this year, no....BUT the way Lavi changes the lines, the CHANCE that he could be reunited with the top players in the world, a chance for a 33 year old vet to be RELEVANT again, maybe even parlay the increased scoring into another one year deal....there was lots of reasons for Gagne to put his eggs in the Flyers basket. 

 

 With Nielson, which was even worse than this due to his sickness, it was Clarke leading the charge...but Homer was part of the org, lurking in the background and learned NOTHING from that debacle.

 

 You can say it's a hard cold business all you want, but guess what, it's funded by real human being with real hearts. The season ticket base will not forget this, and will be much more active in calling for his head. It was not a smart play by Homer. He could have done the classy thing and just let him go from the start of FA.

 

 As rad once wisely said....

 

 "you reap,

 you sow,

 it's harvest time"

 

 homer.

[jammer2]

  I'm mad enough that I would sign any on line petition calling for his job. I would BOO him loudly at any public appearance. He's dead to me. I want him fired, hell I would LOVE to see him fired and publically humiliated. I didn't feel this way 48 hours ago....

 

 Hope it was worth the heat Homer, cause guess what....there is a few million more where I'm coming from.

 

 Another thought, do I really want somebody running my team that is *this* stupid, to leave himself in the line of fire like this?  He's been with the org his whole life and didn't think the loyal fan base would be appalled? You were no hero Homer, you were a goon who climbed through the ranks due to the cronyism of our management. The sooner this guy is gone, the better!

 

 One simple act of kindness could have avoided all this, one simple phone call to a long time hero.

 

 You reap,

 You sow,

 It's harvest time.

[Mad Dog]

@brelic

 

 

I think maybe we're talking past each other a bit here because I don't see where what you said addresses what I was saying.

 

I've acknowledged that the Flyers aren't classy.  In your most recent post you wrote "more than a little disingenuous."  No kidding. I'm not arguing that point.  At all.  In my last post, when I wrote "if 'you' thought that they weren't..." I meant "you" to be in the third person.  Again, YOU (2nd person) put the list going back 15 years.  That would indicate YOU (2nd person again) clearly knew.

 

My sole point is that Gagne's whining is a bit disingenuous and flat out indicates stupidity on his part.  OF COURSE it's a business.  OF COURSE the Flyers have a nearly 2 decade-long history of screwing people.   For Gagne to take a wink-wink, nudge-nudge deal without writing with Paul Holmgren or Ed Snider and do NOTHING to protect himself or to keep his options open is the definition of stupid.  And then to whine about it after the fact compounds the stupidity and makes it public for the world to see exactly how stupid he is.

 

I don't feel bad for him.  He should have operated as if he had the slightest clue about how this world works.   Maybe he should get an agent who isn't such a novice.   If I feel bad for him at all it's because he was a good hockey player who no one now wants because of injury and diminished skills.  That part isn't his fault and there's room to feel bad.  I don't feel bad about his being utterly clueless, however.

 

I feel bad for the folks who came suddenly to some epiphany that this is the way the Flyers operate.  I just wonder what the hell those people were watching the last 15 years or so and what planet they think they're on.  As a public service message to those folks I will say this:  YOUR employer, despite their protestations and yours, would screw you in exactly the same way if it served their bottom line or business interests to do so.  Make sure you have a fall-back position or a plan B.

 

Point well taken.  Gagne *should* have protected himself.  He *should* have Plan B.  No arguing there.  This, however, does not change the fact that Homer and his staff handled this situation horrendously.

 

Yes, my boss will screw me in a blink of an eye and will do what's best for *him*, not what's best for *me*... at last for the most part.  But that doesn't make it right.  That doesn't mean I should have unconditional respect for my boss just because "that's the way it is" and because this is a norm in corporate capitalism.  There should still be a place for general decency and basic standards of human behavior. Maybe I am being naive and delusional, but I would like to hope that there should still be such a thing called trust. 

 

Putting this even in a more philosophical spectrum, perhaps it's no wonder why this organizaiton is where it is today.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Mad Dog

[pilldoc]

  I'm mad enough that I would sign any on line petition calling for his job. I would BOO him loudly at any public appearance. He's dead to me. I want him fired, hell I would LOVE to see him fired and publically humiliated. I didn't feel this way 48 hours ago....

 

 Hope it was worth the heat Homer, cause guess what....there is a few million more where I'm coming from.

 

 Another thought, do I really want somebody running my team that is *this* stupid, to leave himself in the line of fire like this?  He's been with the org his whole life and didn't think the loyal fan base would be appalled? You were no hero Homer, you were a goon who climbed through the ranks due to the cronyism of our management. The sooner this guy is gone, the better!

 

 One simple act of kindness could have avoided all this, one simple phone call to a long time hero.

 

 You reap,

 You sow,

 It's harvest time.

damm @jammer2, tell us how you really feel......  (just kidding with you, I'm not judging you)

 

I understand your frustration and anger.  I understand the "its the way of the business" mentality, but I, like you really though that this organization cared alittle bit more about its former players.  I guess we we are all wrong.  Know wonder Lindros stayed away for as long as he did.  Maybe he knows something more than we do. 

[jammer2]

@Mad Dog  "There should still be a place for general decency and basic standards of human behavior. Maybe I am being naive and delusional, but I would like to hope that there should still be such a thing called trust. 

 

Putting this even in a more philosophical spectrum, perhaps it's no wonder why this organizaiton is where it is today."

 

 

  HERE HERE!!  nice post MD!  On top of all that, this is arguably one of the top 10 Flyers of all time we are talking about. After Homer is fired (and lets hope it's sooner rather than later), I would LOVE to see a Simon Gagne night, award the guy a car, maybe a scouting position if he's good at that!!  

 

 Undue the wrong, FIRE HOMER!!

[King Knut]

This is very disappointing.

I had hopes Homer or Hezy had called Simon to explain what they were thinking and hopefully to reassure him that they would still be signing him.

This is really bad form that they didn't.

My only hope is hat their attitude never changed regarding Simon and that Cleary was just something extra thy wanted to try.

The fact that no one has confirmed his numbers offered and that everyone agrees that the Cleary deal was only to go into place after camp suggests that there was no immediate reason for us to assume Simon was being shut out in the cold.

however no matter what, thu needed to make the call. Bad bad form Flyers. Bad form. He should have retired here.

[ruxpin]

This, however, does not change the fact that Homer and his staff handled this situation horrendously.

 

Completely agree with this and, without exception, with the rest of your post.

 

I get fans being upset by it.  You kind of would like to hope that the team/organization you cheer for would hold themselves, if not to "higher standards," to at least standards of common decency.  It doesn't appear that the Flyers have done that in this case (or in the other cases referenced in this thread).  

 

I can even understand Gagne basically saying "I got screwed!"   From all indications, he did.   But I have told my kids (who have listened at least to some degree), "do not put yourselves in situations that you cannot exert some control over your own well-being" and "don't play the 'victim card' when you fail to do that."    It's very easy to blame another party or situations.  There is some merit to that in some cases, I suppose.   But in THIS case, I have little patience with someone who knowingly (honestly, this should have been knowingly) was putting themselves into a situation of depending solely upon the handshake of someone who has proven in very public ways multiple times that handshakes are meaningless.

 

I don't absolve Holmgren or the Flyers in any way in the matter.  They have acted horrendously, in this case.  No argument there.  I just don't happen to want to absolve Gagne of incoherent stupidity.

[ruxpin]

 You can say it's a hard cold business all you want, but guess what, it's funded by real human being with real hearts. The season ticket base will not forget this, and will be much more active in calling for his head. It was not a smart play by Homer. He could have done the classy thing and just let him go from the start of FA.

 

First, I understand the dismay of the rest of your post (and previous posts).  But I think the above (with the exception of the "could have done the classy thing..." line) is...I don't know what word to use here that would be descriptive but not inadvertently insult you.  The point isn't to insult you.   

 

Yeah, it's funded by real human beings with real hearts.  But I do think this is overstated.  This isn't some hourly worker somewhere being screwed by "the man."  This is a guy who is paying an agent, presumably for a reason:  to advise him on the wisdom and cost/benefit of actions regarding negotiation and contracts and not putting yourself in the position of trusting "the man."   Horrendous on the part of the Flyers?  Yes, absolutely.  But still utterly stupid on Gagne's part.

 

If Holmgren is fired or isn't (you've seen my signature lines, so you know I won't shed a microscopic portion of a tear) it won't be because of outcry from STH or fans or radio call-in shows or whatever.  Were that the case, Holmgren would be the richest person completing an employment application at Walmart right now.  As far as "not forgetting," if the Flyers have a winning record or better by December most--while they might remember in the depths of the mind--won't be anywhere near actively thinking about it.

 

I think it's wise not to resign Gagne.  I do, however, agree with you and others that think this was all done in an abhorrent way.  But I really think the writing on the wall should have been abundantly clear to Gagne when they signed VL that he was not going to be coming back.  His agent should have strongly advised to plan and act accordingly.

[ruxpin]

By the way, @jammer2 , you should know by now (if it wasn't already apparent, my "I hate the movie A Christmas Story" should have sealed the deal) that  appealing to "heart" probably wasn't going to work with me.  

[jammer2]

@ruxpin  I do think some of the responsibility falls at the feet of Gagne. He certainly should have covered all his bases better.

 

 "But I have told my kids (who have listened at least to some degree), "do not put yourselves in situations that you cannot exert some control over your own well-being" and "don't play the 'victim card' when you fail to do that."

 

 Some real words of wisdom here. I see you point clearly, and even begrudgingly agree with it. It still does not take away the failed moral compass of the Flyers, big multi-billion dollar business can be cold like that, it's disgusting, but a reality. But please don't turn around and feed the fans this "we take care of our own" crap. Nothing can be further from the truth.

 

 I think Homer left himself open here. There are many, many Flyer fans that question his decision making process to begin with. It was an incredibly stupid PR decision. Just in our little corner of the Flyers world, the hottest thread is the Gagne betrayal....not the hope of the upcoming season.

 

 " As far as "not forgetting," if the Flyers have a winning record or better by December most--while they might remember in the depths of the mind--won't be anywhere near actively thinking about it."

 

  I would like to think this is not true. The complete and utter betrayal of one of the Flyer greats is deeper than any winning record in Dec. When this team inevitably fails as usual, the frustration of the fan base will be much stronger than normal, maybe double. 

[ruxpin]

But please don't turn around and feed the fans this "we take care of our own" crap. Nothing can be further from the truth.

 

Clearly.  I can't argue with that at all.  They screwed their fans, along side the other owners, this past year.  The fans who are the real revenue generators.  And the Flyers, in particular, did it without so much as a "how do you do?" when they began playing again.

 

If someone's looking for people who give a rats ass for anyone or anything outside of their own pocket books, the Philadelphia Flyers are absolutely the wrong place to look.

[ruxpin]

I would like to think this is not true.

 

You and me both.  But you're not new here.  You know it will be the case.

 

If over half of Eagles' fans can forget they're quarterbacked by a dog killer because he throws a touchdown pass, you know it's the case.

[jammer2]

You and me both.  But you're not new here.  You know it will be the case.

 

If over half of Eagles' fans can forget they're quarterbacked by a dog killer because he throws a touchdown pass, you know it's the case.

 

 Interesting. Would Vick have been as welcomed on the Flyers as he was with the Eagles, if he played a different sport? I don't think your analogy works cause NFL fans are a different breed than NHL fans. Part of it is the short 16 game season, rather than a battle of attrition like hockey is. There is more of a sense of *needing* to win by any means necessary. That and the fact that no single hockey player, not even the goalie, has as much impact as a QB in football. When you are talking QB in the NFL, a lot of sins will be forgotten in order to secure that win, which equals 1/16th of the entire season.

[mojo1917]

i wonder if Eric Wellwood thinks the flyers are classy ?

 

i can't seem to get too worked up over this since i know only one side of the story , i believe ron Hextall may have had some input on whether or not to bring Simon back, specifically not to bring him back.  

 

i hope more is reported on this though, because as of right now it seems as though the Flyers management is a bunch of morally decrepit civet cats, i hope there are hockey reasons for stiffing Gags.

[jammer2]

@mojo1917  "i believe ron Hextall may have had some input on whether or not to bring Simon back, specifically not to bring him back." 

 

 That does not hold water with me. Hextall was hired on July 15th, near the start of FA. If Hexy felt that way, he should have voiced his opinion and then the Flyers should have done the right thing. The timeline does not fit. I'd say (and pure speculation on my part) the Flyers wanted a little emergency option at their disposal.

 

 

  On the surface your Wellwood comment looks accurate, but the more I think about it, the more it could have been protecting an asset. When you have a 21 year old kid who is arguably the fastest skater in the league, parting ways over an injury (no matter how severe) does look like a smart business decision. Much easier to toss him the cash required to hold onto the asset. Nothing wrong with protecting an asset, but much to early to say the Flyers did it out of loyalty, as you implied.

[brelic]

Like I said in one of my first posts in the thread, it's more than a little disgusting that they treated Michael Effing Leighton with more dignity than this.

 

Anyway, come October 2nd, I doubt I'll ever think about this whole Gagne thing again.... until he hoists the Cup with his new team - again.

[jammer2]

@brelic  So, your saying wait until Gagne signs and lay a few thousand on the new team to win?  LOL!

[brelic]

I'll add in the team's defense that this is a recurring pattern of *wink, wink, nudge, nudge* over the past few years that should have tipped off Gagne from the get-go.

 

Jagr and Carle come to mind as players that were kinda told to wait around, and they eventually said screw it and found offers elsewhere. It's not news to anyone here, but the Flyers are very grass-is-greener.

[brelic]

@brelic  So, your saying wait until Gagne signs and lay a few thousand on the new team to win?  LOL!

 

 

Haha, exactly!!