Gagne not happy with Flyers (article)

[jammer2]

@aziz  

there are two possible reasons.  one, holmgren is a jackass who enjoys screwing with people, or two, holmgren wanted to make sure he could put the best roster together possible.  i don't believe the former, and i can't be upset with the latter.

 

 Well, I don't see 1 being true, but I do have a problem with #2.  The past few years, we have let players go late in the game. Carle, Jagr, Gagne, all kinda sorta let go in a wishy washy maybe they promised them, maybe they didn't kind of way. Do you see any patterns here?. 3 years in a row, Homer was so tight to the cap that he needed to make ask players for some blind faith in order to secure their services, but could not really afford them either due to outright cap constraints or just looking for improvements in other areas first. Well, we can now forget ever getting a player to wait around, they will get laughed at if they try that BUT yet for the next 6 years, they will have to wait to use Prongers LTIR money and having a rep as your word is good would go a long way.....so in the end, the whole thing was not only unnecessary, it was counter productive to putting the best roster together.

 

 

 For instance, if the Flyers felt they wanted to add a few more goals, they could have approached a guy like Damien Brunner and said, hey...wait around a few weeks and we'll take care of you. That option is no longer available. Word gets out in the NHL when you go back on your word. Maybe if an established star is torn between the Flyers and another org, maybe he picks the other team cause he knows Gags and does not like the way he was treated.

[hf101]

And don't tell me that in 33, a two-way player, who has shown toward the end of the season that he can still be quite effectife, cannot contribute anymore.... not even on a 3rd line.

 

The Devils have signed Brunner to a PTO..... makes you wonder why not Gagne?

[Mad Dog]

The Devils have signed Brunner to a PTO..... makes you wonder why not Gagne?

 

Because Gagne was waiting that the Flyers would sign him, as they indicated earlier?  Maybe?

[Mad Dog]

@aziz

 

Homer does not strike me as a malicious villain, taking joy in screwing with people's careers, either. I am not trying to paint him as a scoundrel trying to harm people out of pure delight.

 

I can only explain it by him just being relatively inconsiderate, insensitive, and to put it bluntly, thoughtless in certain situations.  Many of his hockey decisions with regard to contracts and such sort of support this impression. No?

Edited September 17, 2013 by Mad Dog

[LegionOfDoom]

Point blank, there have been articles about how Flyers are waiting for LTIR to open up cap room to fit Gagne in.

According to inside sources by reporters, the Flyers were worried about the cap dropping down and how much funds they had available to resign players and to free up cap with optional amnesty buyouts, and if to exercise it on and who to buy out, using both buyouts or one only for this year.

 

Granted the Flyers organization had a lot of questionmarks going into the season, and they weren't sure whether to trade there youngsters for needs that were apparent...goalie situation, defensemen and what's available.

 

Under those conditions the Flyers where happy with Gagne's performance, even putting his goal on best of Flyers moments highlights of the year.

Though there were questionmarks, Gagne let it be known that he would take a substantial discount to stay with the Flyers and that his family was happy to move back into the city and resituate themselves in the community they had fond memories of, and Gagne even stated that he was happy with his career and wanted to finish his career in Philly. He publically stated this and management knew this.

 

Now if it was Hall or Rosehill who stated this, it would be looked at by management as we just got you guys we don't view things this way,

What they told the media was that it's tricky to get Gagne in but when the LTIR goes through, they shoudl have enough free cap to get him in, even knowing he was willing to not get paid what he's worth, to help the team with cap space.

 

Understanding business is business, you can look at this as hey we aren't legally liable to you, and there is no grounds for law suits, breach of contracts.

But the culture is affected when you make bad business decisions, and THIS IS NOT A GOOD business decision.

 

You lessen the fanbase by letting things pass by and not be accountable for something you could of cleared up earliers.

 

example: Your at the store and you see a spill on the floor and stop and look at it and look around the store to see what might of caused it, you stay at the scene for sometime and something else catches your attention, you see a family passing by and know there is a possible chance of injury but also know that possibly it will be ok.

 

It's not your job to clean up the mess and your not getting paid to clean it up and you just picked up some boxes at another isle that fell down.

Your choice what you do. and your not legally responsible.

 

Flyes new Gagne's stand with the orgainzation before the season was over, they verbally told him they wanted him back and hinted that way as well,

the timeline is enough for them to have given him a heads up to not put his hopes on being a Flyer next year and at no time was that done.

That is where your a businASSmen or a busiNICEman.

Gagne had tenure, and you treat yours and yours with dignity, according to the "Flyers Way"

 

Bad public relations is bad business, just go ask Sprint and how much it "cost them" to clean up there image...still cleaning.

 

Homer swallow your business pride and get Gagne in for at least one more year.

Allowing the youngsters a chance is fine, but signing Vinny and getting Streit doesn't do it. It says the organization doesn't want to build from the ground up. It's like Mc Donalds having an epiphany and say "we need to change our culture, we don't want to look like a deathshop out to make a killing, we want to sell only healthy foods, not mechanically or biologically altered."

 

The Flyers culture is to win, WIN DAMMIT WINNN!

So Laughton, Tyler and co. will have to wait it out and develop in the AHL and co.

We have enough forward youngsters in the NHL stable to work with, now defense is another story, we didn't pick up a marquee name.

Under that blueprint you privately tell your tenured players that we are not going to keep you at season end.

They did it for Briere....why not Gagne?

[murraycraven]

I don't think there is one fan who us going to give up season tickets bc of this whole mess... It was a decision that was made whether people think it was right or wrong...

Gagne is a good soldier but in his own words he "put all his eggs in one basket" which was a mistake. That decision was not made by Homer. Gagne is at fault here too...

[murraycraven]

@aziz

there are two possible reasons. one, holmgren is a jackass who enjoys screwing with people, or two, holmgren wanted to make sure he could put the best roster together possible. i don't believe the former, and i can't be upset with the latter.

Well, I don't see 1 being true, but I do have a problem with #2. The past few years, we have let players go late in the game. Carle, Jagr, Gagne, all kinda sorta let go in a wishy washy maybe they promised them, maybe they didn't kind of way. Do you see any patterns here?. 3 years in a row, Homer was so tight to the cap that he needed to make ask players for some blind faith in order to secure their services, but could not really afford them either due to outright cap constraints or just looking for improvements in other areas first. Well, we can now forget ever getting a player to wait around, they will get laughed at if they try that BUT yet for the next 6 years, they will have to wait to use Prongers LTIR money and having a rep as your word is good would go a long way.....so in the end, the whole thing was not only unnecessary, it was counter productive to putting the best roster together.

For instance, if the Flyers felt they wanted to add a few more goals, they could have approached a guy like Damien Brunner and said, hey...wait around a few weeks and we'll take care of you. That option is no longer available. Word gets out in the NHL when you go back on your word. Maybe if an established star is torn between the Flyers and another org, maybe he picks the other team cause he knows Gags and does not like the way he was treated.

I get where you are coming g from but they just signed Vinny, Streit and Emery who were the prizes of free agency so I don't think the Jagr or Carle episodes factored that much into FAs signing with the Flyers.

[Mad Dog]

I don't think there is one fan who us going to give up season tickets bc of this whole mess...

If I didn't stop rooting for this team after they signed Billy Tippets, who pleaded guilty of statutory rape, using this latest incident as a cause to turn my back on them would make me look quite hipocritical, I think. 

[murraycraven]

@ MD...

Great point!

[hf101]

Because Gagne was waiting that the Flyers would sign him, as they indicated earlier?  Maybe?

 

But Brunner just signed a PTO today.  Which is why I made the comment.  The Devils could have just as easily signed Gagne today.

[Mad Dog]

But Brunner just signed a PTO today.  Which is why I made the comment.  The Devils could have just as easily signed Gagne today.

 

Ah, gotcha.  I didn't see that signing by the Devils today.  Yeah, I see your point, I guess.  Maybe Gagne would rather retire than to sign with the hated Devils?  LOL......  Oh I don't know why.... Maybe you guys are right - maybe he doesn't have much left after all.     I surrender.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Mad Dog

[aziz]

I can only explain it by him just being relatively inconsiderate, insensitive, and to put it bluntly, thoughtless in certain situations.  Many of his hockey decisions with regard to contracts and such sort of support this impression. No?

 

i'll go with you on that.  the thing was not handled well, no disagreement there.

[hf101]

Ah, gotcha.  I didn't see that signing by the Devils today.  Yeah, I see your point, I guess.  Maybe Gagne would rather retire than to sign with the hated Devils?  LOL......  Oh I don't know why.... Maybe you guys are right - maybe he doesn't have much left after all.     I surrender.

 

Hey, I really couldn't justify it either, but teams do not seem to be begging for his services.  There must be a valid reason.

[ruxpin]

@aziz

there are two possible reasons. one, holmgren is a jackass who enjoys screwing with people, or two, holmgren wanted to make sure he could put the best roster together possible. i don't believe the former, and i can't be upset with the latter.

Well, I don't see 1 being true, but I do have a problem with #2. The past few years, we have let players go late in the game. Carle, Jagr, Gagne, all kinda sorta let go in a wishy washy maybe they promised them, maybe they didn't kind of way. Do you see any patterns here?. 3 years in a row, Homer was so tight to the cap that he needed to make ask players for some blind faith in order to secure their services, but could not really afford them either due to outright cap constraints or just looking for improvements in other areas first. Well, we can now forget ever getting a player to wait around, they will get laughed at if they try that BUT yet for the next 6 years, they will have to wait to use Prongers LTIR money and having a rep as your word is good would go a long way.....so in the end, the whole thing was not only unnecessary, it was counter productive to putting the best roster together.

For instance, if the Flyers felt they wanted to add a few more goals, they could have approached a guy like Damien Brunner and said, hey...wait around a few weeks and we'll take care of you. That option is no longer available. Word gets out in the NHL when you go back on your word. Maybe if an established star is torn between the Flyers and another org, maybe he picks the other team cause he knows Gags and does not like the way he was treated.

People keep comparing the Jagr and Carle situations to Gagne, but there is one huge difference that underscores my main point of contention: they had the common sense to set a time limit that unprotected their interests and had their head's out of their asses long enough to survey the landscape to say GO!

Jagr and Carle took responsibility for their careers and did fine. Gagne chose to sit around all summer with his thumb up his rectum and now wants to whine like a little bitch. I'm sorry but this is very typical practice and there's no issue here other than Gagne was too stupid to play his cards right.

I don't feel sorry for stupidity.

[radoran]

I would be happier with Homer saying the Flyers were "going with youth" (his public explanation) if the precipitating factor in this whole ordeal wasn't the "signing" of a 34-year-old.

 

It's an odd time to "close the door" and "go with youth" when you've just invited a 34-year-old to camp who apparently thought he was getting a three year, $2.5M+ deal...

[ruxpin]

Hey, I really couldn't justify it either, but teams do not seem to be begging for his services. There must be a valid reason.

Reason: He's done

[radoran]

Reason: He's done

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/did-damien-brunner-price-himself-nhl-181954110--nhl.html

 

Detroit is overstocked with forwards - why Brunner was dropped - and Brunner is six years younger than Gagne.

 

The main "problem" for a lot of players is this ridiculous $64M cap (which is likely to make a rather startling jump next season).

 

Would you choose to take the 33-year-old two-way-forward on the downside of a career or the 27-year-old biggest goal scorer in Swiss league history that just put up better than half a point a game last season for the Red Wings?

 

I mean, if you were looking to bring someone in on a risk-free "tryout"?

[ruxpin]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/did-damien-brunner-price-himself-nhl-181954110--nhl.html

 

Detroit is overstocked with forwards - why Brunner was dropped - and Brunner is six years younger than Gagne.

 

The main "problem" for a lot of players is this ridiculous $64M cap (which is likely to make a rather startling jump next season).

 

Would you choose to take the 33-year-old two-way-forward on the downside of a career or the 27-year-old biggest goal scorer in Swiss league history that just put up better than half a point a game last season for the Red Wings?

 

I mean, if you were looking to bring someone in on a risk-free "tryout"?

 

Clearly the 27 year old.

 

But I would have taken a 34 year old Cleary over Gagne, too.

 

I'd have taken Briere back over Gagne.

 

I just don't think Gagne is a fraction of the player he once was.   Fills a jersey in a pinch when you have 7 people out with injury.   Otherwise, meh.  I would rather have kept the 4th round pick if it were up to me.

[radoran]

Clearly the 27 year old.

 

But I would have taken a 34 year old Cleary over Gagne, too.

 

I'd have taken Briere back over Gagne.

 

I just don't think Gagne is a fraction of the player he once was.   Fills a jersey in a pinch when you have 7 people out with injury.   Otherwise, meh.  I would rather have kept the 4th round pick if it were up to me.

 

As always, I respect our opinion.

 

I wouldn't have taken Briere at $6.5M - and neither would have the Flyers who always intended to buy Briere out before the end of his contract and just got a "get out of contract free" card as a bonus.

 

And I wouldn't go anywhere near Cleary at 34 if the contract terms as he disclosed were anything close to what Homer "didn't offer."

 

Gagne wasn't going to get his Top Six spot anywhere - certainly not as a potential second line center for the Devils. 

 

And I do think that his ego in how much the Flyers valued him played him badly.

 

I do think that Gagne has some value still, at 33, and when the cap goes up to $70M next season, it wouldn't at all surprise me to see him in Phoenix for a million or so.

 

Nor will it surprise me when the Flyers bring him back after a spate of injuries leaves them wanting for forwards...

 

Mike Knuble skated for this team last year. True story.

 

"Business"

[ruxpin]

As always, I respect our opinion.  As I, too, respect ours.

 

I wouldn't have taken Briere at $6.5M - and neither would have the Flyers who always intended to buy Briere out before the end of his contract and just got a "get out of contract free" card as a bonus.  I need to stop putting in throw away lines at the last second.   Agree about the money.  Just player vs. player.

 

And I wouldn't go anywhere near Cleary at 34 if the contract terms as he disclosed were anything close to what Homer "didn't offer."   Cleary's money didn't bother me.  Three years did.  But I would have taken Cleary over Gagne even at those terms.

 

Gagne wasn't going to get his Top Six spot anywhere - certainly not as a potential second line center for the Devils.   No, but here's the thing.  He's NOT going to get the top 2 lines, and I don't want him on the 3rd or 4th line where I think he's a complete waste of space.   So, ultimately, I don't want him at all.   t I'd rather dress one of the kids over either Cleary or Gagne.

 

And I do think that his ego in how much the Flyers valued him played him badly.   This.

 

I do think that Gagne has some value still, at 33, and when the cap goes up to $70M next season, it wouldn't at all surprise me to see him in Phoenix for a million or so. He's an injury fill-in.  I'm not signing him to full-time status because guaranteed I'll need a fill-in for HIS injury.

 

Nor will it surprise me when the Flyers bring him back after a spate of injuries leaves them wanting for forwards...  Stranger things have happened.

 

Mike Knuble skated for this team last year. True story.  Glad you brought this up.  I was thinking about Knuble but it wouldn't have been good in the context of my argument.

 

"Business"

[mojo1917]

As always, I respect our opinion.

@ radoran ... or @ruxpin *shifty eyes*

Very funny.

[radoran]

" I need to stop putting in throw away lines at the last second. "

 

I write them. I admire them. I smile. Then I delete them. 

 

"I'd rather dress one of the kids over either Cleary or Gagne."

 

Absolutely. But the Flyers - according to Homer - were looking to go with a youth direction and extended PTOs to Danny Cleary and Hal Gill.

 

"I was thinking about Knuble but it wouldn't have been good in the context of my argument."

 

It's partially an age-related thing - why the Devils would be looking at a 27-year-old and the Flyers had Cleary, Gill and Gagne on hold.

 

But also that Brunner is a center - which the Devils do need - and Gagne is one of the few wings the Flyers didn't insist on moving to center.

[JackStraw]

" I need to stop putting in throw away lines at the last second. "

 

I write them. I admire them. I smile. Then I delete them. 

 

"I'd rather dress one of the kids over either Cleary or Gagne."

 

Absolutely. But the Flyers - according to Homer - were looking to go with a youth direction and extended PTOs to Danny Cleary and Hal Gill.

 

"I was thinking about Knuble but it wouldn't have been good in the context of my argument."

 

It's partially an age-related thing - why the Devils would be looking at a 27-year-old and the Flyers had Cleary, Gill and Gagne on hold.

 

But also that Brunner is a center - which the Devils do need - and Gagne is one of the few wings the Flyers didn't insist on moving to center.

Actually I think Gags was a center (I guess that would be centre) in juniors and the Flyers moved him to wing. Which would of course be in keeping with the family tradition.

[radoran]

Actually I think Gags was a center (I guess that would be centre) in juniors and the Flyers moved him to wing. Which would of course be in keeping with the family tradition.

 

hockeydb has him drafted as a LW

 

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00007439.html

 

(I checked )

[JackStraw]

hockeydb has him drafted as a LW

 

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00007439.html

 

(I checked )

 

Hmm... could be. I could swear I remember reading somewhere that he was a center in juniors. There is this on his website, although it doesn't say what position he played in junior:

 

"Gagne was drafted 22nd overall by the Philadelphia Flyers in the 1998 NHL Entry Draft and made the Flyers out of training camp prior to the 1999–2000 season. His rookie season saw him play primarily at centre and score 20 goals and 28 assists in 80 games, good enough to be named to the NHL All-Rookie Team. He chipped in 5 goals and 5 assists in 17 games during the playoffs before the Flyers lost in seven games to the New Jersey Devils in the Eastern Conference Finals.

The following season, he was converted from centre to wing."

 

I don't remember him playing center (or centre) for the Flyers.

Edited September 17, 2013 by JackStraw