Gagne not happy with Flyers (article)

[jammer2]

I'll add in the team's defense that this is a recurring pattern of *wink, wink, nudge, nudge* over the past few years that should have tipped off Gagne from the get-go.

 

Jagr and Carle come to mind as players that were kinda told to wait around, and they eventually said screw it and found offers elsewhere. It's not news to anyone here, but the Flyers are very grass-is-greener.

 

 

 A valid point. Recent history has shown that this wink nudge type of stuff never held water, which makes ruxpins point on controlling your own destiny and watching out for your best interests all the more applicable here.

 

 Does not mean that the Flyers were not acting disgracefully here, but does point to a bit of naivety on Gagne's part. 

 

 From the shotbox posted by 101 "@JohnBorukCSN Homer says he never discussed financial terms or had any monetary agreement in place with Simon Gagne."

 

 I'd be more interested if it's true that he specifically told Gagne to "not negotiate with other teams". Why would Gagne lie about such a thing??

[radoran]

Gagne said he told his agent not to negotiate with other teams because the Flyers were "hinting" that they would offer a contract.

 

Gagne bears a ton of responsibility here, but it does continue the pattern of mercenary behavior.

 

NTTAWWT.

 

Quite frankly, if I'm his agent, I'm sending out some feelers...

[jammer2]

@radoran  Ahhh, I misread, and big misread it was...""All summer, the Philadelphia Flyers kept hinting that they wanted to offer me a new contract and I even told Robert Sauvé, my agent, not to negotiate with other teams," said Gagné."

 

 So, there is certainly some blame to go around here, but still does not excuse the Flyers horrid treatment of a player who waived his no-trade to go to TB so they could free up some cap space. If you don't "owe" a guy after that, when do you?

[canoli]

I'd be more interested if it's true that he specifically told Gagne to "not negotiate with other teams". Why would Gagne lie about such a thing??

 

 

I don't have the quote in front of me but I think he said "I told him not to negotiate with other teams." I'm pretty sure Gagne was referring to himself not Homer.

 

Honestly I think this thing has gone over the rainbow at this point. Why? Because I think it's safe to say we (us fans) are completely ignorant of 95% of the conversation(s) between Homer and Gagne.

 

Best I can tell here's all we really know:

 

1. Gagne wanted to come back.

2. We have the events of the summer, i.e. what the Flyers did with their roster.

3. We have a few noncommital statements from Homer after the season regarding Gagne's future with the team, all to the effect of "maybe yes maybe no."

4. Yesterday we have Gagne saying (approx) "this sucks they told me all along they wanted me...well they *kinda* told me....and now it's official. They don't."

 

I fail to see what exactly is so terrible. I know when I first read Gagne's quote last night I said it was "ugly" but in the light of day I realize that even though it seems like the Flyers should've handled Gagne's situation better the truth is we don't really know how they handled it...

 

What we do know just isn't enough to cast judgment, to have an informed opinion. IMHO that is!

[radoran]

What we do know just isn't enough to cast judgment, to have an informed opinion. IMHO that is!

 

You new around here?

 

[canoli]

the Flyers horrid treatment of a player who waived his no-trade to go to TB so they could free up some cap space. If you don't "owe" a guy after that, when do you?

 

Indeed. That's why I said earlier I think the Flyers disrespected Gagne a whole lot more when they traded him for Matt Walker. But I'm still not sure Gagne's is owed something above his (multi-million dollar) salary just because he waived his NTC. That was a decision made by him and his agent and you can bet they were protecting their own interests when they made it. If not....well I think it was PT Barnum who said, "it's a crime to let a sucker keep his money."

[jammer2]

@canoli  It's the time line that is upsetting. When a player has devoted most of his adult life to your team, pay him the decency of simply saying "we are not interested". Why wait until Sept 12th to say, the door is closed? All the contending teams have spent their cap money. I realize this is a multi million dollar athlete we are talking about, so hard to shed tears....he will still make over a mill this coming year....but the timeline is what gets me.

[canoli]

You new around here?

 

 

 

I know...I've been overly (and boringly) reasonable in this thread... I hate getting this way...just trying to be a (polite if possible) counterweight.

 

When the first "let's boycott these MFers!" post hits I will bow out and let the inmates take the asylum back.

[radoran]

I know...I've been overly (and boringly) reasonable in this thread... I hate getting this way...just trying to be a (polite if possible) counterweight.

 

When the first "let's boycott these MFers!" post hits I will bow out and let the inmates take the asylum back.

 

cue @ruxpin

 

[canoli]

@canoli  It's the time line that is upsetting. When a player has devoted most of his adult life to your team, pay him the decency of simply saying "we are not interested". Why wait until Sept 12th to say, the door is closed? All the contending teams have spent their cap money. I realize this is a multi million dollar athlete we are talking about, so hard to shed tears....he will still make over a mill this coming year....but the timeline is what gets me.

 

 

Agreed - if (if if if) we have all the information and everything happened as it appears to Gagne now (though even Gagne, to his credit didn't claim "they promised me!").

 

I'm just not seeing the grievance here. Rux already said it, it's up to Gagne to take responsibility for his career. There are no victims here. There are victims of hurricanes and victims of car accidents but in business there's only volunteers.

[ruxpin]

Lets boycott these MFers!

[jammer2]

@canoli  "I'm just not seeing the grievance here. Rux already said it, it's up to Gagne to take responsibility for his career. There are no victims here. There are victims of hurricanes and victims of car accidents but in business there's only volunteers."

 

  From where I sit there is an appalling lack of loyalty, from an org that prides itself on "taking care of their own."  Victim, no is much to strong agreed. But I'm not the one that spouted this "family" crap...it was Flyer management. It proves what I already knew, they twist and contort situations to fit this "family" image....but in the end, it's all a pile of steaming crap.

[jackhole]

What I don't understand, is why not invite him to camp regardless?  If he gets beat out by younger players, then so be it.  But at least bring him in for show.  Did it for Hal-frikkin-Gill for crissakes!

[Mad Dog]

Completely agree with this and, without exception, with the rest of your post.

 

I get fans being upset by it.  You kind of would like to hope that the team/organization you cheer for would hold themselves, if not to "higher standards," to at least standards of common decency.  It doesn't appear that the Flyers have done that in this case (or in the other cases referenced in this thread).  

 

I can even understand Gagne basically saying "I got screwed!"   From all indications, he did.   But I have told my kids (who have listened at least to some degree), "do not put yourselves in situations that you cannot exert some control over your own well-being" and "don't play the 'victim card' when you fail to do that."    It's very easy to blame another party or situations.  There is some merit to that in some cases, I suppose.   But in THIS case, I have little patience with someone who knowingly (honestly, this should have been knowingly) was putting themselves into a situation of depending solely upon the handshake of someone who has proven in very public ways multiple times that handshakes are meaningless.

 

I don't absolve Holmgren or the Flyers in any way in the matter.  They have acted horrendously, in this case.  No argument there.  I just don't happen to want to absolve Gagne of incoherent stupidity.

 

I hear you... I hear you loud and clear. It's almost scary, but I try to instill almost EXACTLY the same things in *my* kids, as well. Try to always have a Plan B in whatever the difficult or controversial situation you are in, be smart about not getting exposed, and if a mishap happens, take a responsibility as a grown-up. Do not put an onus on other people. It's not always easy to control things as certain circumstances are out of your control, but we still control our destiny. I am convinced of that. Believe me, I get all that. And I hate whining myself.

 

But there are two separate  issues that are being discussed in this thread or looked at, I guess: a) Gagne's game plan and his ensuing predicament he found himself in and b) the Flyers behavior. So when it comes to Gagne's complaining, as I said, I am with you. The only thing I would say is this quote is what made me thinking:

 

All summer, the Philadelphia Flyers kept hinting that they wanted to offer me a new contract and I even told Robert Sauvé, my agent, not to negotiate with other teams

 

The reason I am isolating this quote is because Gagne - at least based on my observations - is not a whiner. In fact, he always came across to me as a quiet guy who keeps it all to himself. Unlike Lindros and his family, who often seemed to play a victim card, Gagne has not been known as a complainer. The reason he now went public tells me he feels genuinely pissed and in his own right, feels he got screwed real bad here. I mean if what he says the true and the Flyers *did* in fact give him all the indicaitons they would sign him, and then not only they did not sign him, but did not even invite him to the camp on a try-out basis, that reeks of a scummy, indecent behavior at best...

 

And while none of us was present during those discussions, I do believe Gagne. Why would he lie about something like this? Perhaps this is why Gagne feels so strong; I probably would be too.  And see, that’s another thing I try to teach my kids: keep you word no matter what the situation is.  If you are not 100% confident you can keep your word, do not give you word. 

 

Now trying to put two and two together, and seeing how Carter, Carle, Jagr, and now Gagne have been handled, and how Lindros and Nelson have been treated by Homer’s mentor, I have to draw a conclusion that Homer and Clarke are simply not people of high moral standards. This sort of thing seems to be a casual, frivolous stuff to them. Homer casually gives his player a certain guarantee and then turns around and backs down on his word like it’s nothing. This, to me, goes beyond just hockey "being a business". Yes, it is a business, but we still live in a society of humans and I expect people to at least uphold their principals. I am sure Holmgren would not appreciate someone treating *him* this way.

 

This conduct is not an action of a businessman.  And these are more than just business decisions. This is simply a slimy, unacceptable conduct.  And I cannot have respect for the organization who exercises such behavior - on a regular basis, mind you. Yes, winning is important. But this will not be simply forgotten or forgiven, regardless of a winning record or the lack thereof.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Mad Dog

[ruxpin]

@Mad Dog

 

I'm going to isolate your quote as well.  Not in an attempt to beat it to death but because somehow your doing so made me think of this a bit differently.  It actually made me think Gagne is a bit more ridiculous in this situation than I thought originally:

 

"All summer, the Philadelphia Flyers kept hinting that they wanted to offer me a new contract and I even told Robert Sauvé, my agent, not to negotiate with other teams."

 

Okay, the bold above is obviously mine.

 

According to Gagne's quote--his choice of words, not mine--the Flyers hinted that they wanted to offer him a new contract.  So, by my understanding of "hinted," they didn't necessarily say, "Simone, we want to offer you a new contract."  

 

They "hinted."

 

What does "hinted" involve?  Is it body language?  Inflection?  Tone?  Or is it the statement "If we still have cap room and still have need of a winger, we'll take a look at you."  Or is it, "we'd like to offer you a try out contract and if you make the team terrific."  

 

It's hard to say, but there is a LOT of wiggle room in the word "hinted" and often it leaves much to the interpretation of the receiver of the "hint."   Sometimes--maybe in this case but I don't know--it's a complete fantasy on the part of the interpreter.    (ie., Debbie, "I think Paul likes me."   Janice, "Why?"    Debbie, "He keeps hinting that he does.  Like yesterday he was sitting next to me in history class and asked to borrow my pencil."   It could be a hint.  He could also have really needed a pencil and she was sitting next to him.)

 

So, if all we're going with is hinted, that leaves a lot of wiggle room for both Gagne and then fans who want to run with it and yell, "See!  Holmgren is an ass!"    Maybe he is.  But it's a leap of logic from this statement: "the flyers hinted."

 

Then we have the part of the statement that Gagne--not Holmgren--told his agent not to talk to other teams based on "hinted."

 

I'll go back to Debbie for a second.  You shut down all real offers or possible interest because Paul hinted--real or imagined?  That would be foolish in Debbie's case, and it's even more foolish where a career is concerned.

 

I didn't seize on "hinted" until you highlighted the quote, which is why I'm beating up on it.   I was previously interpreting the exchange as "said" or "promised" or some other term like that.   But now that I'm realizing the word was "hinted," I'm even more convinced that Gagne is whining like a scorned adolescent girl in this situation  (I agree that I've never thought of him as a whiner previously and I also don't think he is in general--but he is to me in this situation).

 

I would not personally shut down all other options if the Flyers told me they want to sign me--without a signed contract.   But a hint?  Even a repeated hint?   Now he's just flat out insanely stupid in this situation.

 

The truth is he was very much hoping because the reality is he has little to no chance elsewhere.

[canoli]

The truth is he was very much hoping because the reality is he has little to no chance elsewhere.

 

 

Bingo. I'm sure Gagne saw re-signing with the Flyers as the path of least resistance to a playing job this year.

 

as to the quote:

I give him credit for being honest about the situation. He's not pretending he was promised anything...But isn't it strange how he admits there were no promises, no handshakes, no nothing, only "hinting." Yet he seems to be claiming the moral high ground as if he was betrayed. I don't get it.

 

If he *actually* put his career on hold based on "the Flyers kept hinting..."

[Mad Dog]

@canoli

@ruxpin

 

I agree in a sense that "hinting" could have various meanings.  And again, without being present in the room and hearing the conversation, there is just no way to know what exactly has been said.  But I personally find it hard to believe that Suave - a seasoned, savvy agent who negotiated tons of lucrative deals for a number of players - could advise his client to seat and wait simply based on the "hint".  It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. 

 

And do you honestly believe that Gagne would find absolutely NO team who would want him?  As spent as he seems to be, he still has something to offer for a reasonable price. 

 

Finally, like I said, if the Flyers gave Gagne nothing concrete, nothing specific, I just can't imagine why in the world Gagne, who has never been known as a whiner, would come out public and sound so visibly outraged.

 

All that, looked in the context of *this* particular GM doing similar sort of things to other players, leads me to suspect it was something a bit more than just a hint.  Sorry, but something just doesn't add up here to me.

[jammer2]

@Mad Dog  That's exactly the way I feel. The timeline does not add up. If there was no promises made, why would Gags put himself in this spot? Why would Gagne order his agent to not look for other teams? Is Gagne *that* stupid....or did the things Homer said to him totally convince him that searching elsewhere not necessary? Again, seeing what happened to Carle and Jagr should have clued him in...that's on him. Everything points to Gagne getting used from where I sit.

[ruxpin]

If there was no promises made, why would Gags put himself in this spot? Why would Gagne order his agent to not look for other teams? Is Gagne *that* stupid

 

A lot of that, yes.  He's apparently THAT stupid.   But more to the point:   NOBODY WANTS HIM.   He hang his hat on his best hope and his best hope didn't want him.  He now feels jilted and wants to point fingers.  The fact of the matter is his career ended before the trade for Matt Walker.   As lousy as Matt Walker is, that was an even-up trade.

 

The fact is HE used the word "hinted."   HE could have used "said," "promised," etc.  He did not.  He used an extremely weak word that has no meaning.   Why?  Why would he do that when he's trying to blame Holmgren and the Flyers?   If he's trying to say it was someone else's fault and not his own, why such a weak word?   Because he knows damn well they didn't offer him anything or promise him anything or even say anything concrete.  

 

What doesn't add up in the whole thing is Gagne's statement, unless you take it completely at face value.  And face value uses the word HINTED.

 

Because the timeline certainly adds up.   The Flyers dumped Briere's salary and Bryz's salary.  They had well enough money to sign Gagne to the $1.2 Million he's still overpaid at.   Did the Flyers negotiate then?  NO.  Did they offer then?  NO.   Did they SAY anything then?  NO.  According to Gagne they may have HINTED.

 

Then they sign VL.    They sign Emery and they sign Streit. 

 

How does someone Gagne has the IQ of a grapefruit if he thinks there is room for him at this point...hint or no hint?    Actually I think the "hint" at that point was very clear:  we're not signing you!

 

It should not have taken the Flyers offering a contract to Cleary with money they didn't even have for Gagne to clearly understand the Flyers weren't going to offer him anything more than a tryout.

 

The timeline is actually clear:   they had no intention of signing him to anything more than a tryout contract and they didn't think he actually had any chance of making the roster!  He clearly wasn't a priority and that should have been abundantly clear.

 

People argue he's never been a whiner.   That's true.  But people change when they realize they're at the end.  When people are looking at selling their castle because the faucet is running dry.   It has to be painful, and that may be the way he's responding.  I'm not hurling a stone there, it just is.

 

He didn't tell his agent not to look elsewhere (the more I'm thinking about this the less I believe it).  They looked.   There were no bidders.   Apparently the Habs aren't interested; they were trying to beef up and already met their delicate wallflower quota with signing Briere.   Someone somewhere will sign him when they're hit with injuries and can afford to spend some LTIR money on a stop gap.   Until then, Gagne will have to pay for a ticket to go to a game.

[LegionOfDoom]

You can try to deduce all you want and try to rationale who gets killed and what group stays alive, It's all commulative until the triggers on you.

You can make this an intellectual attorney dribble...but I call bullshit.

Homer should of manned up and said Simone we don't think we will have you in our plans. Plain and simple.

No bullshit plan b or c.

Homer your an ass to let it go down like this. You should of stated it and not punk someone.

Gagne IS/and WAS our own.

 

Ed Snider WHAT DO YOU. I'M POINTING TO YOU! HAVE TO SAY ABOUT HOW THIS WENT DOWN?

Paul made you look bad, made the organization look bad...and is it all Homer's fault. I question the direction this has caused/and was heading.

 

It's easy to quarterback bullshit, when your not the one who farted and ended up shitting all over your self.

We don't have the whole story. But a **** stain doesn't lie. The question is who's **** stain is it anyway. Simone says it in his quote.

 

What's one more year, what's one more year to have Gagne play and tell him in that contract year that we will sign you for this year and we open the option that you can retire a Flyer, It's up to you to take this package or if you feel you have more in the tank feel free to field offers, and we hope the best for you.

 

That's classy. That's what a classy orgainzation does. Holds you up for a stated while and makes it clear which direction theyre going.

 

It's a sport, yes it's a stupid sport, but your dealing with peoples lives, and no crap about "well he's a millionaire and he can take it, boo hoo hoo" he lost money and can't play on another team boo hoo hoo. F. U. Center. That doesn't give anyone the right to claim you as unworthy because your price tag is higher. Whether a beggar or a billionaire they are still human, and that is lost in the translation of business. You start dicken around with peoples lives and that's when all hell can brake loose.

 

Line combinations. They should put Gagne with G and Jake and put Hartnell on the LW line in question. He would of been a better fit. Not every line needs a checker. Gagne is playoff worthy. And he felt the best he has in a long time,

Let the rookies play....yes you let them play but you don't release a whole squad of youngsters, you trickle them in, in pairs. You don't go the Oilers route...all talent no head.

 

Maddog and Rux make valid points. You teach your kids how to calibrate their compass and what to do during your travels, but you sure do teach them not to be an ass on the way there. Teach them to check themselves before they wreck themselves. And you tell your group these are the starter tools in life, you still need to collect more tools. Know how to use them and when.

 

Homer this time did him dirty and he got caught slippin'

Green lights on you Paul. you better fix this or your next. You should bring back Gagne.

Rosehill, Hall signings were not a betterment for the team, Gagne is, sign him at least to one year and state no promises.

 

Flyers fans DON'T LIKE HOW THIS WENT DOWN and we WILL BE VOCAL.

[Mad Dog]

Homer should of manned up and said Simone we don't think we will have you in our plans. Plain and simple.

No bullshit plan b or c.

 

And that's where the problem is, for me.  WHatever it was.. a hint, a half-hint..... I don't care.  The guy has been a loyal Flyer since he was drafted.  He played his entire career here, minus a few last years.  At least be candid with him.  Why lead someone by nose?  Tell the guy whether your team has him in thei plans or not.  THere must have been some positive dialog, which made Gagne believe the Flyers wanted to bring him in all along.

 

I can see their gameplan might have changed after they brought in Vinny.  But that was early July, yes?  Get back to Gagne and tell him we are not planning on brining you back; explore some other options.  I don't believe for a second that Gagne's camp was really THAT stupid not to plan ahead.  Gagne may not have had much of a clue, but I don't believe his agent, who makes money doing this stuff for ages, could not see something this obvious and advise his client to plan accordingly.

 

The Flyers must have given Gagne more than a hint.  This management is well known for treating multiple players direspectfully. That's enough evidence for me.  I am not changing my stance until/unless I see something than refutes that.

[canoli]

The Flyers must have given Gagne more than a hint.

 

I bet they did - in fact I know they did: Rux listed them perfectly and in order...dumping salary, hiring LeCav...up to and including Cleary. The "hint" is obvious and it translates easily to: We Don't Want You.

 

This management is well known for treating multiple players direspectfully.

 

yikes that sounds pretty harsh but it's true, we know they've fkd over some players along the way. It's also true that the Flyers have established a well-known reputation around the league for treating players extremely well and pampering them to the point of excess.

 

Lastly I'd like to point out that of course Homer didn't want to close the door on Gagne until he had to. That's what's known as being a GM and being responsible for giving your coaches the best players you can land. It's perfectly acceptable to dangle and stall and "hint" and even flat-out bullshit a player if that strategy serves your team's interest. To counter that the players have their own union and every one of them has an agent. It's an adversarial system; there's no mystery why it looks contentious when we see "how the sausage is made," when we get a glimpse into the negotiations. It is contentious. It's two sides fighting over a slice of one salary-capped, roster-restricted pie.

[Bakanekimiwa]

Unfortunately the ugly ones are the ones that stand out. How would explain the roger neilson situation???

 

 

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/clarke-claims-neilson-went-goofy-1.208862

what? it's not like they told him to go out and get cancer!!!

[Bakanekimiwa]

i'm gonna have to claim a half grunch here on this thread. i only got about half way through before the same ole theme kept repeating itself. the flyers are apparently deemed 'classless' here in this thread. 

 

i disagree. it IS a business and teams are in it to put the best team possible on the ice. that will seem cut throat if they're doing it right. if they're not... everyone's got fuzzy happy feelings ... and that's just great. especially if they can find a way to win as well. gagne should be smart enough to know that if there is no deal on paper, than there is nothing. if he really did shy away from negotiating with other teams, then he was negligent to himself. 

 

i cannot blame the flyers for any part of this gagne situation, but i can find a lot of blame for gags himself. he's a good player, i would have liked to have seen him back. it's unfortunate, but the flyers just don't see him in their plans. most likely because they want to see what Laughton can do. 

 

now... a common refrain of this board is that the flyers have, historically, had a problem with re-signing/signing aging veterans and not leaving enough roster spots for their emerging youth. well, as soon as the flyers appear to be listening to this type of logic, this board gets all fussy about exactly what we complain about most. 

 

it seems right here in this thread we can see the fickle nature of the philadelphia flyer's fan. stop signing aging veterans!! stop bringing back personnel based on loyalty!! oh.. wait.. that is until it's gagne! how dare they smite gagne! or the next player that you want them to bring back or resign. 

[ruxpin]

I bet they did - in fact I know they did: Rux listed them perfectly and in order...dumping salary, hiring LeCav...up to and including Cleary. The "hint" is obvious and it translates easily to: We Don't Want You.

 

 

 

 

yikes that sounds pretty harsh but it's true, we know they've fkd over some players along the way. It's also true that the Flyers have established a well-known reputation around the league for treating players extremely well and pampering them to the point of excess.

 

Lastly I'd like to point out that of course Homer didn't want to close the door on Gagne until he had to. That's what's known as being a GM and being responsible for giving your coaches the best players you can land. It's perfectly acceptable to dangle and stall and "hint" and even flat-out bullshit a player if that strategy serves your team's interest. To counter that the players have their own union and every one of them has an agent. It's an adversarial system; there's no mystery why it looks contentious when we see "how the sausage is made," when we get a glimpse into the negotiations. It is contentious. It's two sides fighting over a slice of one salary-capped, roster-restricted pie.

 

Very well said.