Thoughts in Emery, Giroux and Vinny Deals

[AJgoal]

Well their win now no matter what cost us a top 5 pick this year. If we had the 4th pick and drafted Jones, wouldn't that make up for the horrible year and possibly have our franchise dman we been craving for? Sometimes it's good to go for it when you have a team that is set. But that's not the case with the Flyers, they always have a hole either it be in goal or defense. I wouldn't be against them going for it every year if they have a solid goalie but they never do.

What did the Flyers do last season that was a "win now" move? They didn't make any big "win now" moves over the previous summer, losing Carle and Jagr in the process, which contributed to where they drafted this past year. The only thing they really did was trade for Luke Schenn - which was a move for the future of the aging d-corps. At the deadline, they traded Leighton for Mason, which was hardly a "win now," move - but it might be a move for the future. Unfortunately (for draft position), the team started to win in front of him - He went from an 0.899 sv% /2.95 gaa in 13 games with Columbus to a 0.944 / 1.90 in 7 in Philly. They beat the Bruins 5-2, for example, icing a defense of Luke Schenn, Kurtis Foster, Erik Gustafsson, Brandon Manning, Oliver Lauridsen, and Andreas Lilja.

Now they might have a goalie for the future, though that's a big might. I'm interested to see what Mason can bring to the table if the Flyers defense can settle down and play better positionally in front of him. I'm interested to see what the young guys can do if/when they get their ice time on the blueline this season. I'm hoping Mason can regain his Calder form. I don't know how much I believe he can, but a young goalie who seems to have the tools is at least worth giving a shot to.

Would I have traded for Schneider? Probably, were Mason not here. Maybe still. But I can't fault them for keeping #11 and restocking the D. I would have seen if Coburn could have netted the return Buffalo got for Sekera (or even another pick instead of McBain, maybe a 2 next year), and used #35 on Fucale, though. A draft of Fucale, Hagg, and Morin would have looked pretty good, in my mind.

[radoran]

What did the Flyers do last season that was a "win now" move? They didn't make any big "win now" moves over the previous summer, losing Carle and Jagr in the process

There were the offers to Parise and Suter and the unprecedented offer sheet to Weber.

The fact that they got denied on all of them doesn't remove the "win now" effort behind them, does it?

[Vincent05]

@AJgoal

Last year they tried to sign Suter and/or Parise when that failed they signed Weber to the offersheet. I'm glad that those players aren't here or those contracts would hurt us at those terms. The previous year was "remaking" the team. They traded Richards and Carter for young guys and to clear cap space to sign the best FA goalie. Look how that turn out, you can't always go for the best FA player in the market. Doesn't always work out how you want it to.

I would've traded for Schneider in a heartbeat. I have no problem with Morin but he is a project right now, I rather have the sure thing now and that sets us up in goal for the next 7-8 years. I agree with moving Coburn for a few 2nds (rumor Oilers offered both of theirs?). We could've take Fucale, Hagg and another dman.

If Homer had a plan to begin with, we could've had Schneider, Streit, Vinny, Fucale, Hagg and another drafted dman. While we traded Coburn, a 1st, 3rd or 4th. Plus he can give Mez away to free cap space and sign a steady defensive dman to replace Coburn. Maybe Scuderi or Ference. This is all for not anyways as he has no plan.

[doom88]

@radoran

I think a 1st and 3rd or 4th would've gotten it done. I don't get this team at all, they will give up alot for a forward or dman they love who is over the hill but they won't trade for a proven goalie. We've seen Florida trade Luongo for crap before and now Schneider for a 1st. Until their mindset change or they are no longer around we can't expect much different.

I can see him kicking our ass just like Brodeur has for all this year. We will be regretting we didn't get him.

Schneider is unproven, and I hope he flames out in NJ.

[Polaris922]

Schneider is unproven, and I hope he flames out in NJ.

I think we ALL hope he flames out in NJ!

[doom88]

I think we ALL hope he flames out in NJ!

The enemy of my enemy is my friend kind of thing I assume.

[Polaris922]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend kind of thing I assume.

In hockey the enemy of my enemy remains my enemy.

[radoran]

Schneider is unproven, and I hope he flames out in NJ.

He has 2.20/.927 to Bernier's 2.36/.912 with more games played and the Canucks went with him over Luongo before essentially being told they weren't buying Roberto out. For a guy signed for two years at a fairly reasonable $4M, it cold have been worth a shot.

I hope he makes a Tunguska-sized flameout, but the likelihood is something different.

[AJgoal]

There were the offers to Parise and Suter and the unprecedented offer sheet to Weber.

The fact that they got denied on all of them doesn't remove the "win now" effort behind them, does it?

@AJgoal

Last year they tried to sign Suter and/or Parise when that failed they signed Weber to the offersheet. I'm glad that those players aren't here or those contracts would hurt us at those terms. The previous year was "remaking" the team. They traded Richards and Carter for young guys and to clear cap space to sign the best FA goalie. Look how that turn out, you can't always go for the best FA player in the market. Doesn't always work out how you want it to.

How did those attempts, and the loss of Jagr and Carle that resulted while they were pursuing them, hurt the Flyers draft position? If anything, the loss of Jagr up front and the weakening of the D corps hurt the Flyers quite a bit. What "win now" move did they make to cause them to go on their position-weakening run at the end of the year? That was the statement I was responding to.

[aziz]

There were the offers to Parise and Suter and the unprecedented offer sheet to Weber.

The fact that they got denied on all of them doesn't remove the "win now" effort behind them, does it?

effort, yes, but vincent said something had cost the flyers a top 5 pick. those offers didn't cause the flyers to fall 6 draft spots. what "win-now" move is he talking about that made the flyers win a few more games? mason, maybe, but who knew mason of all goalies would have a good 7 games?

[radoran]

How did those attempts, and the loss of Jagr and Carle that resulted while they were pursuing them, hurt the Flyers draft position? If anything, the loss of Jagr up front and the weakening of the D corps hurt the Flyers quite a bit. What "win now" move did they make to cause them to go on their position-weakening run at the end of the year? That was the statement I was responding to.

The two bolded statements seem to contradict each other. Happy to learn, but as I read it, the loss of two players that "hurt quite a bit" certainly affected the draft position.

effort, yes, but vincent said something had cost the flyers a top 5 pick. those offers didn't cause the flyers to fall 6 draft spots. what "win-now" move is he talking about that made the flyers win a few more games? mason, maybe, but who knew mason of all goalies would have a good 7 games?

Well, I was responding specifically to the quoted statement.

They went on their "position-weakening" run at the end of the season after they were eliminated and it has been argued by Some (you among them) that the team played much better in front of Mason than in front of Bryzgalov, allowing their confidence to take them on the run.

Listening to Many (yourself among them), simply offering the possibility of the light at the end of the Bryzgalov Tunnel changed the entire mental makeup of the squad. Therefore, making the goalie move was among the most important "win now" moves the team could have made - even after they were eliminated.

I, for one, can see a great deal of validity in that perception

[aziz]

The two bolded statements seem to contradict each other. Happy to learn, but as I read it, the loss of two players that "hurt quite a bit" certainly affected the draft position.

true. but it pushed the draft position down. vincent's suggestion was that the flyers hurt their draft position in some way with their win-now mentality. had the flyers not made all of those offers, carle would have been resigned and possibly jagr, too, and imo the flyers likely would have made the playoffs...thus further worsening their draft spot.

Listening to Many (yourself among them), simply offering the possibility of the light at the end of the Bryzgalov Tunnel changed the entire mental makeup of the squad. Therefore, making the goalie move was among the most important "win now" moves the team could have made - even after they were eliminated.

I, for one, can see a great deal of validity in that perception

i see what you are saying, and it did help them "win now". but it wasn't what i call a "win now" move. from what vincent is saying, it seems to me he referring to large scale deals that can only help for a short time and in some way sacrifice the future, a la pronger, lecavalier, etc. the mason deal doesn't seem to qualify.

@Vincent05 - help us out here. what "win now" move(s) were you referring to that specifically lost the flyers 6 draft spots?

[radoran]

true. but it pushed the draft position down. vincent's suggestion was that the flyers hurt their draft position in some way with their win-now mentality. had the flyers not made all of those offers, carle would have been resigned and possibly jagr, too, and imo the flyers likely would have made the playoffs...thus further worsening their draft spot.

Yeah, I'm curious about Vincent's perspective, but, again, was specifically commenting on the quoted bit that they didn't do anything "last summer".

[Vincent05]

Well their win now no matter what cost us a top 5 pick this year

This was meant that they were pushing to make the playoffs even tho they had no business of making the playoffs with that defense and how inconsistent the team played all year. With them winning games the last few weeks cost us a high draft pick and maybe adding a franchise player. Who knows maybe Morin will be.

[radoran]

This was meant that they were pushing to make the playoffs even tho they had no business of making the playoffs with that defense and how inconsistent the team played all year. With them winning games the last few weeks cost us a high draft pick and maybe adding a franchise player. Who knows maybe Morin will be.

It's not like the team can just sit up and outright decide to quit on the season - I mean, unless there's a lunch involved

I think the chemistry on the team improved, they were somewhat forced to play competent developing defencemen and they shined a light at the end of the Bryzgalov Tunnel.

No one expected Jones to drop so far - and the team still had the option of dealing for him (or Schneider) and stood pat.

[King Knut]

Personally I think everyone's got a bit of a point.

However... I can't fault Homer for going after Suter or Weber last year... well maybe Weber... Christ you could have let him sign a one year deal and gone after him this year as a UFA, but whatever... when the best player out there is something you need, I can't blame them.

Getting Pronger got this team to the finals. If Emery hadn't used too many cortisone shots on his hip, and stayed relatively healthy, we might have won it too. If we had no one would be complaining about that regardless of his health now. As it is, his contract isn't hurting us too much at the moment. A bit, but not too much.

Re: Everyone they sign being over 30... isn't that just the nature of the NHL right now? Entry level contracts and RFA contracts keep these guys locked up until they're in their late 20's in a lot of cases. Parise and Suter were exceptions who were in their prime and Homer went after them. Are we mad at him for going after them or for not getting them?

The Vinny deal makes sense. The Emery deal makes a lot of sense (though as is typical with this team, until we get better doctors/trainers, I fear for the guy's health. I wanted Bernier, but we got outbid. As it is, Spending little on Mason and Emery makes this team very good in net. Maybe it's putting a band aid on the dyke leak, but I don't think so. I see it as an investment in the future rather than a selling of the farm for a handful of magic bryz beans.

Emery is a smarter deal than any goalie deal Homer or Clarke has probably ever made... The last smart deal a Flyer GM made for a goalie was Emery version 2.0, the refugee out of the KHL, it wasn't their fault our docs and trainers cortisoned him to catastrophic bone necrosis. But even that deal was riskier than this one at the time. Emery had a bad rep and meh stats in Russia. Emery 3.0 has a great rep and excellent stats and a pretty decent health prognosis... oh and he's not the only basket we've got eggs in. Mason is no slouch.

Streit makes more sense than anyone is giving that deal credit for making. The reason Coburn did not have a great season last year is because he was being asked to fill a role that does not play to his strength and that is because we lost Carle to Free Agency. Now Coburn can go back to doing what he does best, probably playing next to Timmonen again. Signing Streit, if he stays healthy, enable everyone on Defense to do what they do best again instead of having to wear multiple hats that don't fit them.

Are there better, younger puck moving D-men in the league that we'd rather have? Sure. They weren't available. Streit was and his deal isn't absurd.

Neither is Vinny's. Think about it, woudl you rather have a Jagr type rental or LeCavalier? 40 vs. 33. Would Stamkos be better than Vinny? Sure... he wasn't available. I'd certainly rather have Vinny than Iginla at this point.

I think we're all making decent observations here and we all grasp the team's needs and frustrations, but while this summer's moves have some similarities with the problems of the past... they also seem to be speaking to specific holes in the lineup. We knew we needed a puck moving Defenseman, a Scoring forward and a goalie. Homer got all three. I'm impressed. If he can resign Gagne on the cheap and ship away Mezaros, I'll be very impressed.

If they all stay healthy enough to play 80% of their games and 90% of the playoffs, my mind will be blown.

I'm talking about the how consistantly Homer and Clarke before him go about chasing the biggest name in free agency year after year and usually it's guys past their Best Before date. It's not about "tweaking" like a contender does to try and win a cup.

[radoran]

Re: Everyone they sign being over 30... isn't that just the nature of the NHL right now? Entry level contracts and RFA contracts keep these guys locked up until they're in their late 20's in a lot of cases. Parise and Suter were exceptions who were in their prime and Homer went after them. Are we mad at him for going after them or for not getting them?

I'm mad at him for going after them and letting two assets walk for nothing. Both said clearly, in the media and I have to believe privately, that they had no interest in playing for the Flyers.

I would imagine it would have taken something like $120M in signing bonuses to get the two of them under those circumstances.

If they kept the previous roster virtually intact, IMO they are in the playoffs this year - probably first round against a Pens team that they're deep in the heads of and that the Isles took to six games. I like that setup.

I'm less concerned with the Streit deal (Y5 a concern), think VLC took a discount to come here and will be worth the money throughout, and think Emery was a genius move.

Proving, once again, that blind squirrels find nuts.

[AJgoal]

The two bolded statements seem to contradict each other. Happy to learn, but as I read it, the loss of two players that "hurt quite a bit" certainly affected the draft position.

I saw that and realized it might seem contradictory, just didn't bother to edit. What I meant there was how the losses of those two hurt the team's overall performance, as opposed to their draft position, which improved because of the losses.

[radoran]

I saw that and realized it might seem contradictory, just didn't bother to edit. What I meant there was how the losses of those two hurt the team's overall performance, as opposed to their draft position, which improved because of the losses.

OK, gotcha. Tx!

[jammer2]

All the Flyers had to do was....get one look at Mason, say "oh, he looks good" and put him at the end of the bench, let Bryz play the final 7 games, then Jones would have been ours. A small price to pay for a once in a life time stud like Jones. Sadly, the last 7 games of an already lost season were more important than the long term well being of the franchise. Sad....

[Vincent05]

@jammer2

Exactly!!!! Why we won't win the Cup under this management.

[radoran]

All the Flyers had to do was....get one look at Mason, say "oh, he looks good" and put him at the end of the bench, let Bryz play the final 7 games, then Jones would have been ours. A small price to pay for a once in a life time stud like Jones. Sadly, the last 7 games of an already lost season were more important than the long term well being of the franchise. Sad....

It wasn't "the final seven games". It was effectively every other game from when he was acquired (once he got back-to-back starts) and he made his first appearance April 6 against Winnipeg.

Team was 4-2 in front of Mason. 2-3 with Bryz (managed to score more than one goal twice, a 7-3 win in MTL and a 2-1 win over the Isles).

[aziz]

Sadly, the last 7 games of an already lost season were more important than the long term well being of the franchise. Sad....

i was hoping for a slow end, too, for the same reason, but....is it actually "sad" that a team didn't want to throw games? i mean, really? i'm *still* making fun of pittsburgh for the mario thing, and now it's "sad" to not do the same? I can't come with you on that one.

[jammer2]

@aziz I get what you are saying, I just contend there was to much at risk to win at the end. Getting into the top 5 in this draft would have changed everything. It was worth the risk, for fans and others to think less of us.

[aziz]

Getting into the top 5 in this draft would have changed everything.

maybe.

i watched a "draft in 30 minutes" something something about the lindros draft yesterday. it focused on lindros, but included coverage of the draft itself. the phrase "and scott lachance, here's the real bluechip in the draft today" popped out at me.