Any chance Hartnell goes?

[aziz]

Flip hyperbole doesn't suit anyone well

this coming from the guy whose calling card is flip sarcasm. nice.

[canoli]

Well it's hard to ignore the numbers. JLC produced x pts with 88 and 1/2x w/out 88; similar to Hartnell with and w/out Jagr.

Aziz's overall point must be correct, those 2 players absolutely needed those superstar line mates to produce their big season(s). I emphasize that last bit to show that depriving either LeClair or Hartnell doesn't make them worthless, it just means they won't have career seasons that's all. Because we all remember watching LeClair take 2 defenders on his back from the corner and muscle his way to the front of the net...or carry them (and the puck) behind the net, stuff a goal on a wraparound. He did those types of things a LOT and almost none of it had to do with Lindros' presence or absence.

Of course you can always make the case that having a real "star" on your line makes a world of difference. I guess it does b/c teams have to focus on him so much...opens up a lot of space for the Renbergs and LeClairs of the world. But Renberg also had a pretty wicked shot and JLC was one strong mother-- on his skates.

The numbers are the numbers. Unless Aziz pulled them out of his ___ (!) then there really can't be any debate. Without Lindros John LeClair is a ~50pt player, with him he's near 100. Pretty big difference. Same with Hartnell. He'll *likely* go back to ~45pts this year and the reason will be because Jagr is gone.

[aziz]

@canoli

except I exaggerated in my post, so everything in the world is invalidated.

crap, I did it again.

[canoli]

oh yeah, ix-nay on the yperbole-hay when you're up against Rad...he's a little "unforgiving" shall we say when it comes to poetic license. (no disrespect Rad your style is your own!)

[edit: I told you a million times ...]

Edited July 8, 2013 by canoli

[aziz]

oh yeah, ix-nay on the yperbole-hay when you're up against Rad...he's a little "unforgiving" shall we say when it comes to poetic license. (no disrespect Rad your style is your own!)

[edit: I told you a million times ...]

fah. he creates a straw man argument by interpreting literally something that was obviously not intended to be interpreted literally, and then accuses people of "moving the goal posts" when they say, "obviously, that was not meant to be taken literally." and he then references that straw man forever, refusing to accept any clarification or restatement. oh, see, i did it again. i said "forever" but it won't actually be forever, so nothing i say going forward can possibly be valid.

whatever. cheap wins based on syntactic nitpicking. if it does the trick for him, he's welcome to it, i guess.

Edited July 8, 2013 by aziz

[Clarke2Leach]

because great teams like chicago, boston, LA have speed and skill players that wins cups, they dont have players that rely on garage goals, that's not how you win because great defense teams can knock garbage players like hartnell off your skates.

Bryan Bickell says "hello". Try again. And how anyone could knock Hartnell of my skates remains a mystery to me.

[JackStraw]

@canoli

Just saying, just as leclair was meh until Lindros and meh after him, with amazing in between....hartnell was meh before jag and has become meh since he left. With amazing in between. I don't mean total disrespect for either guy, it does take something to get that done, but neither appears to have the ability to get it done with just anyone feeding them.

The real point is that hartnell got a long contract based on that one season, a season whose output is very not likely to be replicated.

Eh, that's not really true. Obviously everyone benefits from playing with better players. But Hartnell has had two 30 goal seasons with the Flyers and the first had nothing to do with Jagr. Or, for that matter, Giroux. I don't even remember who he played with in '08-'09 but he scored all of 7 fewer points than he did last year playing with G and Jagr. And last season he developed some good chemistry with Giroux, he has a good quick release and an accurate shot and Giroux was looking to set him up pretty often. And yes, he will take the punishment to score the ugly goals as well.

Last year everyone loved the guy, and it was not because he stood there and let pucks bounce off him. All that said, if you can get a good return for him then fine. But I suspect his NMC will be a bigger obstacle to a trade than either his contract or his desirability around the league.

[JackStraw]

I guess I am a big idiot, because I love Hartnell and what he brings to the team. If it is that easy to score garbage goals, then why doesn't every team have a player to do that. They use to say the same about Tim Kerr and his "garbage" goals, but he managed to get lucky and put in 50 a Season.

Garbage goals got Phil Esposito into the Hall of Fame.

[toughfighter83]

Bryan Bickell says "hello". Try again. And how anyone could knock Hartnell of my skates remains a mystery to me.

at least bickell can skate.

[brelic]

You could say the same about Gagne. He had his career years playing with Forbserg in terms of points and goal scoring. WIthout Forsberg, he was still a very good offensive player, but nowhere near the same sniper he became with Forsberg.

Some players have great chemistry when playing together, and in a lot of cases, one of them creates better players around him regardless of who they are, and the other one benefits from such a player.

With a healthy Giroux and emerging Voracek, it's not outside of the realm of possibility for Hartnell to hit 30-35 goals this year, many of them the garbage variety. The league is catching on to the patented hashmark one-timer from Giroux, but I'm sure they'll develop new tricks.

My money, though, is on Hartnell never again reaching 50 points. I hope he proves me wrong

[Digityman]

I don't even remember who he played with in '08-'09 but he scored all of 7 fewer points than he did last year playing with G and Jagr.

Lupul? Upshall?

[canoli]

But Hartnell has had two 30 goal seasons with the Flyers and the first had nothing to do with Jagr. Or, for that matter, Giroux. I don't even remember who he played with in '08-'09

What I remember about that year is the embarrassment in the POs in Pittsburgh, going up 3-0 in G6...force a G7.... only to watch them blow it and lose the series. But hey at least "Carbomb" kicked some ass that game.

Thanks for reminding us about the 30-goal season pre-Jagr. I'll never forget his goals in the Miracle Run against Boston, one where he was falling backwards and somehow ... He's a good player imo, maybe not as skilled as many, not the softest hands ... but then he finds a way to get it done and score big goals. He's hardly ever on the losing end (anymore) of a scrum/fight where he's the only one going off the ice... I don't know what's not to like about the guy. I know Rux hates him but...well ya know that's Rux!

[JackStraw]

Lupul? Upshall?

Yeah, I think maybe he was with Carter and one of those guys. Maybe both at different times?

[flyercanuck]

because great teams like chicago, boston, LA have speed and skill players that wins cups, they dont have players that rely on garage goals, that's not how you win because great defense teams can knock garbage players like hartnell off your skates.

Is the a "headshake" smiley?

What kind of goals do Lucic and Bickell score? Are they fast?

[toughfighter83]

Is the a "headshake" smiley?

What kind of goals do Lucic and Bickell score? Are they fast?

no but they dont rely on deflection goals, lucic and bickel know how to score goals in crucial times in the playoffs where was hartnell in the devils series last year, if he was so great? john leclair was old but knows how to shoot for goals in the playoffs in the tampa series in 2004, hartnell is no leclair, he's just a another scrub, he has no speed, no skill to score goals, has to rely on team mates and defections just to get goals.

i just think you believe hartnell is just good as leclair, bickell and lucic.

[flyercanuck]

no but they dont rely on deflection goals, lucic and bickel know how to score goals in crucial times in the playoffs where was hartnell in the devils series last year, if he was so great? john leclair was old but knows how to shoot for goals in the playoffs in the tampa series in 2004, hartnell is no leclair, he's just a another scrub, he has no speed, no skill to score goals, has to rely on team mates and defections just to get goals.

i just think you believe hartnell is just good as leclair, bickell and lucic.

Riiiiight.

Is there a reason you feel the need to put words in other peoples mouths? Where did I even mention LeClair, or say Hartnell was better or worse than Lucic or Bickell?

And why didn't the CBA include a 3rd compliance buyout, solely for fans?

[aziz]

no but they dont rely on deflection goals

alright. i'm tired of it. you might be the dumbest person ever.

here's the video of the cup winning goal just a few weeks ago. let's talk about deflections and garbage goals.

[flyercanuck]

@aziz

Ya but you're just trying to say Lexus is better than Gretzky.

[toughfighter83]

alright. i'm tired of it. you might be the dumbest person ever.

here's the video of the cup winning goal just a few weeks ago. let's talk about deflections and garbage goals.

hahahaha, calling people names it's just the way for saying you just sucking up for the player

[ruxpin]

If one calls a tree a tree, it isn't sucking up to anyone or anything; it's simply calling it by what it is.

[aziz]

@toughfighter83

you will notice:

1. i didn't call you any name; i described you. different concepts. adjective versus noun. see?

2. i didn't stick up for any player in particular; only that hey, a garbage goal off a deflection just won the stanley cup

3. "...it's just the way for saying you just sucking up..." makes no sense at all. do you speak like that, or does your brain go "fzzt" when you type?

4. it's just the way for ask if those mine are you to them.

[toughfighter83]

@toughfighter83

you will notice:

1. i didn't call you any name; i described you. different concepts. adjective versus noun. see?

2. i didn't stick up for any player in particular; only that hey, a garbage goal off a deflection just won the stanley cup

3. "...it's just the way for saying you just sucking up..." makes no sense at all. do you speak like that, or does your brain go "fzzt" when you type?

4. it's just the way for ask if those mine are you to them.

did you notice you sound like a kid when you talk like this how old are you 10? 5?

[aziz]

@toughfighter83

i'm 8.

and i guess i'll take sounding like a kid versus sounding like an ESL student.

totally lost you there, didn't i?

[radoran]

this coming from the guy whose calling card is flip sarcasm. nice.

"flip sarcasm" is quite different than using "hyperbole" to "make a point"

(you can tell that from the quote marks)

[Vincent05]

I don't know what's not to like about the guy. I know Rux hates him but...well ya know that's Rux! :)/>

I like Hartnell but don't like the term on his contract with the MNC. I also think the majority don't like that either. Otherwise he's a great team guy.