Halak to flyers?

[aziz]

<br />I'm firmly in the "if you can't handle the heat, get out of the crease" camp here. <br />

and that is fine, but it doesn't have to completely ignore the things that will best position individual players for success. the reality is that mason had a seriously rough time in Columbus. for whatever reason. it is entirely likely he is going to have some continuing issues. it is conceivable that he works through them, but it probably won't be a day/night 100% correction out of the gate. if he is held to a "traditional" measure from day one, he isn't going to make it. maybe that sucks, but it is what it is. this is an individual who needs to be handled individually, not with broad and anonymous axioms.

if the intention is to give him the best chance to succeed. he IS a project, and has to be treated like one.

if the intention is to not take any context into account and play him you would any other goalie, like someone who didn't mysteriously suck to high hell for three years, like someone who isn't a project, then the flyers need to sign a starter today, because mason is a lost cause.

it breaks down like that. he will fail if no understanding of his situation is taken into account. he may succeed if it is. the flyers need to decide which of those two approaches they want to follow, and sign a second goalie accordingly.

[aziz]

Emery just started 19 games for Chi in a 48 game "season". They kind of did well in the playoffs.

did you get the impression Chicago was running an open competition throughout the season, though?

it doesn't surprise me that, in a shortened season filled with back-to-back games, a well-trusted backup got a lot of starts. and they can work a thing like that in philly, if they wanted to. my point is to not enter the season going, "we don't know where either of you are on the depth chart. we want a cut throat competition between the two of you, fight to the death, may the best goalie win."

[canoli]

my point is to not enter the season going, "we don't know where either of you are on the depth chart. we want a cut throat competition between the two of you, fight to the death, may the best goalie win."

exactly.

funny though, the one guy who would likely excel in that situation is Ray Emery. But my gut and everything else tells me Mason is exactly the wrong guy for that approach.

[radoran]

it breaks down like that. he will fail if no understanding of his situation is taken into account. he may succeed if it is. the flyers need to decide which of those two approaches they want to follow, and sign a second goalie accordingly.

Well, we can just take as read that I have no faith in this organization, this coaching staff or the head coach to adequately develop a goalie - no matter who he, she or it is. This group - to a man, apparently - backed signing Bryzgalov to a nine-year, NMC deal as crucial to the future of the organization.

That rain falling on your head has a bit of a yellow tint to it.

That said, how should Mason claim the job? Go out and play each game like he did in the seven games at the end of last season. Play them that way whether he plays one game, two in a row, three weeks straight or 16 to win the Cup.

I simply do not believe that handing him the job is the best motivation or "development" option for him - or the Flyers. He has done nothing to earn it. He has shown remarkably little.

The question of what happens if he reverts to the way he played the previous three seasons is a valid and important one. I, for one, would prefer to have a viable second option - and not whatever "Jose Theodore" can be signed.

funny though, the one guy who would likely excel in that situation is Ray Emery. But my gut and everything else tells me Mason is exactly the wrong guy for that approach.

Then why, may I ask, do you want Mason as your goalie?

[aziz]

<br />And thats just one problem with that mindset. I really believe you need a proven, clear #1 to start the season and a back-up. It's just healthier and more certain this way.<br />

while obviously youth hockey and college club is a far far cry from anything professional, but...I had one season where I was part of a "we don't know which of you to go with" goalie tandem. it was a pretty strict game on/game off thing we rotated through. I ******** hated the other guy. we didn't speak. i'd smile when he let in soft goals, he'd storm off the ice at the end of games I won. the lockerroom picked sides, whispers of, "dude, he sucks, coach should start you tomorrow," after games. the freaking families picked sides, I have a tape of one of my games (against the Hershey midget team, actually) where the other guy's friends and parents started chanting "new goalie" minutes after the opening faceoff (i'd mishandled the puck behind the net, no goal but embarrassing). it was a mess.

I've been a clear back up, I've been a clear starter. in those situations, the dynamic was constructive. tell me I have to compete with my teammate every game, that is not.

again, was an amateur and a kid. it is probably much different in the pros. much different, but not completely different.

[radoran]

while obviously youth hockey and college club is a far far cry from anything professional, but...I had one season where I was part of a "we don't know which of you to go with" goalie tandem. it was a pretty strict game on/game off thing we rotated through. I ******** hated the other guy. we didn't speak. i'd smile when he let in soft goals, he'd storm off the ice at the end of games I won. the lockerroom picked sides, whispers of, "dude, he sucks, coach should start you tomorrow," after games. the freaking families picked sides, I have a tape of one of my games (against the Hershey midget team, actually) where the other guy's friends and parents started chanting "new goalie" minutes after the opening faceoff (i'd mishandled the puck behind the net, no goal but embarrassing). it was a mess.

I've been a clear back up, I've been a clear starter. in those situations, the dynamic was constructive. tell me I have to compete with my teammate every game, that is not.

again, was an amateur and a kid. it is probably much different in the pros. much different, but not completely different.

My problem with this is that Steve Mason has done absolutely nothing to deserve having that sort of an attitude.

Steve Mason should be thanking his lucky stars he has a chance to play for the Flyers, not whining and throwing tantrums if he isn't named "the guy" today. He's Andrew Raycroft and I don't want the Flyers to be the Leafs, Avs, Canucks or Stars "taking a chance" on a guy "finding his game" because he "needs to be the #1 guy."

(Mason, for the record, has not whined or thrown tantrum #1 and I do not at all expect him to)

[aziz]

My problem with this is that Steve Mason has done absolutely nothing to deserve having that sort of an attitude.Steve Mason should be thanking his lucky stars he has a chance to play for the Flyers, not whining and throwing tantrums if he isn't named "the guy" today.

ok, but that's the thing. I see your for-the-record, but it bears spelling out. I don't think mason is going to whine and throw a tantrum. mason has a confidence issue. his head gets twisted up and he plays really poorly when it does. the question is: is that confidence issue fundamental to steve mason, in which case the flyers need to beat feet from him asap....or is the confidence issue a result of years of being shelled behind one of the consistently worst teams in the league, and can be exorcised by getting time behind a competitive roster, in which case, allowances need to be made as his recovered mental stability takes hold.

[canoli]

while obviously youth hockey and college club is a far far cry from anything professional, but...I had one season where I was part of a "we don't know which of you to go with" goalie tandem. it was a pretty strict game on/game off thing we rotated through. I ******** hated the other guy. we didn't speak. i'd smile when he let in soft goals, he'd storm off the ice at the end of games I won. the lockerroom picked sides, whispers of, "dude, he sucks, coach should start you tomorrow," after games. the freaking families picked sides, I have a tape of one of my games (against the Hershey midget team, actually) where the other guy's friends and parents started chanting "new goalie" minutes after the opening faceoff (i'd mishandled the puck behind the net, no goal but embarrassing). it was a mess.

I've been a clear back up, I've been a clear starter. in those situations, the dynamic was constructive. tell me I have to compete with my teammate every game, that is not.

again, was an amateur and a kid. it is probably much different in the pros. much different, but not completely different.

Great story and thanks for sharing it. That's what I was getting at with the "no matter if Emery is the most unselfish guy in the world he'll be rooting for Mason's failure." Is it different in the pros? I'm sure it is to some degree. But I'll bet not by much. In fact you could make the case the rivalry, bitterness and taking-sides phenomenon is even more intense at the pro level considering all that money that's at stake.

[radoran]

ok, but that's the thing. I see your for-the-record, but it bears spelling out. I don't think mason is going to whine and throw a tantrum. mason has a confidence issue. his head gets twisted up and he plays really poorly when it does. the question is: is that confidence issue fundamental to steve mason, in which case the flyers need to beat feet from him asap....or is the confidence issue a result of years of being shelled behind one of the consistently worst teams in the league, and can be exorcised by getting time behind a competitive roster, in which case, allowances need to be made as his recovered mental stability takes hold.

Ilya Bryzgalov "had a confidence issue." The Flyers traded away a future Vezina winner to make his fee fees all betters.

Forgive me, but I am seeing two guys who rightly and accurately roasted Bryzgalov for his mental lapses and inability making excuses for Mason's deficiencies in the same area.

Again, the Flyers are not here to "give Steve Mason a chance" - they are here to win hockey games. I am hopeful that Mason can be a part of that - but that hope is extinguished if the reality of the player is that he is so mentally fragile that having anything but the world handed to him will cause his confidence to crumble and his game to go to crap.

I don't believe that. I am curious why you two do?

[canoli]

the question is: is that confidence issue fundamental to steve mason,

hard to see how it would be considering his rookie season. Guys with endemic confidence issues probably don't win the Vezina. They may make some noise for a few months - like a Leighton say - but to carry a team for a whole year as a rookie kid? And do it so well that the entire league has to say "okay kid you were the best" - I find it improbable that Mason is just inherently weak in the confidence department. My guess is he needs that "special handling" you're talking about and I'm advocating. I see Rad's point entirely and it does go against the grain of professional achievement. It's not "fair" really to hand him the team. BUT - this is Who We Have. Let's give him the best chance possible to succeed.

[canoli]

Forgive me, but I am seeing two guys who rightly and accurately roasted Bryzgalov for his mental lapses and inability making excuses for Mason's deficiencies in the same area.

completely inaccurate. I never roasted Bryzgalov once for any of his "mental lapses" except as they related to his weaknesses as a goaltender, i.e. the skills required to be a good one.

[radoran]

hard to see how it would be considering his rookie season. Guys with endemic confidence issues probably don't win the Vezina.

He won the Calder, not the Vezina

They may make some noise for a few months - like a Leighton say - but to carry a team for a whole year as a rookie kid? And do it so well that the entire league has to say "okay kid you were the best" - I find it improbable that Mason is just inherently weak in the confidence department. My guess is he needs that "special handling" you're talking about and I'm advocating. I see Rad's point entirely and it does go against the grain of professional achievement. It's not "fair" really to hand him the team. BUT - this is Who We Have. Let's give him the best chance possible to succeed.

Jesus, by that line of thinking they should have kept Bryzgalov and made the right decision by trading Bob...

I just fundamentally can't be on board with that, and I don't think that's really what you meant.

Just because Mason happens to be standing in one of the goalie stalls is a horrible reason to just hand him the job.

[radoran]

completely inaccurate. I never roasted Bryzgalov once for any of his "mental lapses" except as they related to his weaknesses as a goaltender, i.e. the skills required to be a good one.

So, Mason just needs special treatment in order to play goalie well, but Bryzgalov's "mental lapses" were purely as a result of his lack of skills as a goaltender?

I don't see - at all - how those two things are different.

[canoli]

damn! again, wrong on the history. Okay thanks for the correction - the Calder. Still a pretty piece of hardware!

But come on now, you're telling us with a straight face you can't see the difference in skill level between Bryzgalov and Mason?

[AJgoal]

Training camp is the place for a competition. Whoever wins out in TC, is the starter. Obviously the guy can lose the job if he puts out consistently poor performances, but if Mason wins the starting job, there's no reason to then turn around and show him you have no confidence in him by having him compete game in and game out. On the flip, if the other guy wins the job, he goes in as the starter. Don't hand anything to anyone, but don't keep an axe over the guy who wins coming out of TC.

[radoran]

But come on now, you're telling us with a straight face you can't see the difference in skill level between Bryzgalov and Mason?

Well, from what we've been told Homer, Ed & the Flyer "braintrust" don't see a difference...

The question of whether or not I think Mason can be the starter for the Flyers is a quite different one from the question of whether or not I think he should be handed the job today.

I think he has the tools. I think he needs to grab his chance.

[aziz]

<br />I am hopeful that Mason can be a part of that - but that hope is extinguished if the reality of the player is that he is so mentally fragile that having anything but the world handed to him will cause his confidence to crumble and his game to go to crap.<br /><br />I don't believe that. I am curious why you two do? <br />

why what? why do we think mason requires this, or why do we think the flyers should acquiesce?

if the former, well, look at his history. something went very very very wrong for him in Columbus. a bad team will influence a goalie's numbers, but having watched him...he was brutal. just everything leaked through him. he was too deep in his net, too tentative on shooters, panicked and overplayed loose pucks. having him fix those problems will require SOMETHING. something more than just a better team in front of him. as bad as Columbus was, the goals he allowed were worse.

if the latter...the guy has every single tool a goalie needs. whereas bryzgalov did not. mason is very strong on his skates, has quick and accurate lateral motion, understands how to direct rebounds, plays the puck well. he has all the ingredients for a high end goalie. if some coddling is what it takes to bring those to the fore, then i'm ok with the flyers doing that. with bryzgalov, it was wasted effort and wasted time. he was a terrible skater, no lateral movement, spit rebounds into the slot like it was his job, and played the puck worse than my cat. none of the tools a high end goalie requires, aside from pure size.

one thing I've always thought mason lacked was situational awareness. in Columbus, he seemed to be continually surprised by developing plays. you'd like a goalie to have a constantly updated map of player and puck positions in his head, and a running list of possible outcomes. adjusting to plays and making saves becomes a matter of following the already understood cause/effect menu he has worked out. this, imo, is what has always made brodeur so good, he always knew what was coming before it happened. mason has never really shown me that. and, that could be a fatal flaw. or it could be a thing he needs to work on, with a little less chaos in front of him.

Edited July 5, 2013 by aziz

[canoli]

in other words no amount of Kumbaya was going to help Ilya Bryzgalov become a great NHL goaltender. Steve Mason has already shown he can be one. Even in those 7 garbage games the difference between the two was dramatic. Mason's impact was immediate and while I'm sure there will be setbacks at least he showed the skills needed to be a solid NHL goaltender.

I'm sorry but I just never saw those skills in Bryzgalov. After reading some smart posters here I learned why I never saw them. His success in Phoenix/Anaheim was more about the system he was playing behind. Once that system was removed and he was subject to Lavy's "TheBestDefenseIsMoreOffense" style....Bryzgalov was exposed.

With Mason we see SPEED, QUICKNESS [edit: and I should SKATING, COMPOSURE, PUCK-HANDLING, REBOUND CONTROL etc.] throughout his game. Right? Didn't you notice the difference immediately, that first game with the Flyers? We all did, all of us in the chat room that night (can't rem if you were there).

Anyway. Come on...let's not pretend the only difference is a mental one between Steve Mason and Ilya Bryzgalov.

Edited July 5, 2013 by canoli

[radoran]

why what? why do we think mason requires this, or why do we think the flyers should acquiesce?

Why you think Mason will fold like a tent if he isn't handed the starting job.

The last thing I want is a goalie who falls to pieces if things aren't going perfectly for him.

[radoran]

in other words no amount of Kumbaya was going to help Ilya Bryzgalov be a great NHL goaltender but Steve Mason has already shown he can be one. Even in those 7 garbage games as you call them the difference was dramatic between the two. Mason's impact was immediate and while I'm certain it's not all "sunshine and daisies" here on out at least he showed the skills needed to be a great goalie.

I'm sorry but I just never saw those skills in Bryzgalov. After reading some smart posters here I learned why I never saw them despite his succes in Phoenix - it was much more about the system he was playing behind and once that system was removed and he was subject to Lavy's "Defense Who Needs Defense?" style....Bryzgalov was exposed.

With Mason we see SPEED, QUICKNESS throughout his game. right? Didn't you notice the difference immediately, that first game with the Flyers? We all did, all of us in the chat room that night. Come on...let's not pretend the only difference is a mental one between Steve Mason and Ilya Bryzgalov.

You're trying to make this a Bryz vs. Mason discussion - which it isn't. I'm just saying that a lot of the excuses being made for Mason are quite similar to those made for Bryzgalov.

That said, I'll restate my position:

I think [Mason] has the tools. I think he needs to grab his chance.

[aziz]

<br />Why you think Mason will fold like a tent if he isn't handed the starting job.<br /><br />The last thing I want is a goalie who falls to pieces if things aren't going perfectly for him. <br />

ah, ok. well, yeah. the ugly reality is that he has folded like a tent before. like a tent that folds more than most tents. like George jettson's car.

confession: i'd just as soon it was someone other than mason in philly. the guy is such a wild card, and collapsed in Columbus way more than should be blamable on a bad team in front. luongo and vokoun played behind seriously really bad teams in florida, and stood strong. lundqvist has made AHL teams in new York look like competitors. mason completely crapped the bed under adversity, and that scares the hell out of me.

but.

he is who the flyers have now. he has the fundamentals to be great. his head is a humongous big question mark. given that he is what the flyers are dealing with, and given the *potential* he has to be very very good, may as well do what it takes to maximize the chances. single season contract, put the house in the order that gives him the best possible environment, and see what happens. maybe he steps up and is amazing and going forward the flyers have their guy. maybe he folds back into a suitcase, and the flyers are back a target next summer shopping for another goalie. I see no point in taking the chance but blunting the potential for a positive outcome over an axiom of "if you can't stand the heat...." if that is the approach, may as well head for the goalie aisle now.

[canoli]

I see no point in taking the chance but blunting the potential for a positive outcome over an axiom of "if you can't stand the heat...." if that is the approach, may as well head for the goalie aisle now.

right. I think the competitive bell has been rung for Steve Mason. Homer et al are giving him the shot he says he wants. All they can do is give it to him and adding what I'd call another layer of competition is unproductive at this point. In a year if he's done well enough to warrant a "real" contract then maybe you bring in someone to push him further. But this first year let's back off on the "you better or else" stance.

[ruxpin]

We just signed Emery, so the Halak part of the festivities is probably done.

I'm glad. Emery > Halak (IMO) for way less money.

[canoli]

Well. Okay. Looks like it'll be a "fight for the #1 job" - exactly what I didn't want. But I'm happy about Ray. I always liked him, going way back. It won't surprise me a bit if he wins the starting job outright and Mason crumbles like a cookie.

[xganarchy]

Sometimes I don't understand Flyers fans...some were complaining signing Lecavalier would hinder Schenn and Couturier but now Emery should be fighting Mason for the # 1 job? My opinion is: Mason is still VERY young. He obviously has a ton of talent. He was fantastic his rookie year. I think he played so well for us last season after coming over b/c he saw it as a new beginning. The Flyers, a team that is usually in the hunt for the Cup, thought he was good enough to bring in and possibly take the reigns after ousting Bryz! (Possibly his thoughts, not mine).

Now you bring in Emery and people want it to be a "you mess up, you're out!" situation? I loved Emery when he was here and still think he's great. But I'd rather see him used 25% of the time rather than 50%. I'm not saying if Mason plays horribly to start the season, goes 2-8 and has a 3.50 GAA to leave him out there. I just want him to have confidence that if he has a bad game, he's not going to ride the bench for 5 games. Rad, I know you keep pointing out the organization let Bob go because we were coddling Bryz, but Bob wasn't the most consistent goalie here. Perhaps he knew if he had a bad game he'd be riding the bench again. I whole heartedly agree we should have NEVER signed Bryz, and let Bob go with our #1 spot. I just think Mason COULD be that young # 1 we've always wanted and should be given the opportunity to grow here.