First time I'm saying this, but Homer must be fired.

[King Knut]

Here me out.

The way Richards and Carter are performing in the playoffs for the kings the last two years make it clear to me.

Not that I don't like their replacements, not that I think they should still be flyers either.

They are showing everyone that they are not lazy, they are not distracted by girls and they are not on drugs or alcoholics.

They are big time big game clutch performers who play hard and play hurt and lay it all out for their team even when they shouldn't (Kane in OT again not withstanding).

But no, I'm not blaming Homer for letting them go. I'm blaming Homer for not seeing that THEY weren't the problem.

I'm blaming homer for getting the cap gap to such a point where he had to dump them to make any changes.

Some say Snider makes him do these stupid moves and them clean up the mess. I don't care. His job is to right this ship. Stand up to the old fart. Get in his face if he has to. Enough already. We need this team to be run like a pro.

Edited June 9, 2013 by hf101
Removed content

[Phillygrump]

Being traded from Philly woke them up a bit, but here they did atleast go through a phase where they were lazy and distracted by their lifestyles.

They look like they fixed that issue.

[ZeZel25]

Here me out.

The way Richards and Carter are performing in the playoffs for the kings the last two years make it clear to me.

Not that I don't like their replacements, not that I think they should still be flyers either.

They are showing everyone that they are not lazy, they are not distracted by girls and they are not on drugs or alcoholics.

They are big time big game clutch performers who play hard and play hurt and lay it all out for their team even when they shouldn't (Kane in OT again not withstanding).

But no, I'm not blaming Homer for letting them go. I'm blaming Homer for not seeing that THEY weren't the problem.

I'm blaming homer for getting the cap gap to such a point where he had to dump them to make any changes.

Some say Snider makes him do these stupid moves and them clean up the mess. I don't care. His job is to right this ship. Stand up to the old fart. Get in his face if he has to. Enough already. We need this team to be run like a pro.

Richards and Carter WERE a part of the problem. Immature, selfish, partying attitudes got them traded, their own faults not Homer's or Snider's! Carter couldn't handle Columbus because he was immature and played lazy still! He had like 8 hits in 40 games there, are you kidding me? He had almost a hit per game here in philly, which was pathetic, but 1 hit every 5 games?

[King Knut]

Their rings beg to differ. So does the fax that they were the only players giving the kings any chance in the playoffs this year.

But thanks for proving my poit about the thick skilled myopic fans here in Philly (not all, but certainly some and loudly) that can't see straight through their need to be hating someone.

I even said that I didn't think they should fill be flyers, I swear to god the only words you must have read we're Richards and carter and then you went off.

My point was tht the THINKING here in Philly is what's off. It's the thinking that decided those two guys who are now invaluable to a cup champ that returned to the conference finals were better off traded than sorting out.

It's the thinking that got us Bryzgalov and Mason, and a second missed trip to the playoffs in 6 years.

You want I tell me again how I'm wrong?

Homer is struggling to maintain or build a competitive team. He's out of his league and he doesn't have the know how to get it done.

[Phillygrump]

Simple. They weren't the Carter and Richards you are seeing in LA here. There they are role players here they were the super stars of he team.

Here thy had a pill popping partying problem. There they seem not to have one.

Sure they are playing well now and are champions now but they weren't on that path here. They deviated pretty far from that path here.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

[Phlyer1]

In fact Richards missed three games in the series.

[doom88]

Give due credit too. Homer and his scouting staff have done well with young ufas: Bobrovsky, Read, Gus to name three of the top of my head. Undrafted signings are a great way to save money and carry low risk.

[ruxpin]

Homer is struggling to maintain or build a competitive team. He's out of his league and he doesn't have the know how to get it done

I won't argue with your premise nor your conclusion. I personally think Homer should go.

I do think that Carter and Richards don't have the same career projectory if they stay in Philly...which is what some of the others were saying. I think they are very good cases of wandering players getting their ships righted by a move.

But I don't think that necessarily undermines your point. Clearly, we can see the last two seasons and playoffs (playoffs in particular) what kind of impact players both can be and should have been expected to be. So it begs the question, why were such players caused to have their careers derail in Philly? I am actually concerned--not a lot, but the thought creeps in--about Giroux in the same way. I really do think that Richards was made captain way too early and unnecessarily. That's part coach but it's also GM. And it's something I think the GM should have had veto power on, and I bet he did have the veto and didn't use it. I suspect he not only didn't use the veto but also encouraged and helped fascilitate the idea--if it wasn't his idea in the first place.

To me, Homer's problem isn't really about ability to assess players in terms of acquisition. Drafting decent players in decent spots in the draft doesn't really seem to be the problem. And trading value for equal or better value doesn't typically seem to be an issue...with a few obvious exceptions. The problem seems to be how the players are managed and developed once they arrive here. Regardless of whose names are on the jerseys, over the past however long its been since the first lockout and especially since Holmgren became GM, the complaint--and justifiably so--has been the long stretches of disinterest in the play of the team. Whether it was Carter/Richards' team or now the Giroux team, they have difficulty remaining focused and on task for 60 minutes let alone from game to game.

We have repeated the Richards' error of making a kid captain too early and unnecessarily with Giroux. We put centers at wing and wonder why they seem out of position too much. We put 3-6 defensemen on the first pairing and again wonder at under-performance. We ask a goalie to play an absurd amount of games in way too short a period of time because we don't have the foresight to get a damn backup that is capable of spotting a game here or there. And then we wonder why the goalie falters (I know Bryz sucks but it would have been hard on ANY starter).

The problems seem to be systemic since it doesn't matter who the coach is or how much the names on the jerseys change. The one thing that has NOT been tried in over 20 years is a real change at the top. Changing from Clarke to Clarke Lite isn't really change. Bring in new blood, a new philosophy, and a new focus and see if something actually different doesn't work.

[ruxpin]

I'm struggling to think of any other franchise where the RESULTS of the past 7-8 years (not "attempt" -- RESULTS) doesn't cause the GM to lose his job [EDIT: I just came up with Sather, but in his case I think he stayed with the wrong coach too long]. There have been too many cases where the GM was fired and I thought he actually did fairly well with what the inept ownership had given him. Or cases where the GM simply wasn't given enough time because the plan based on finances, etc., required patience. But in this case, the GM has a large checkbook and has had plenty of time. We have two missed playoffs and a largely empty prospect cupboard to show for it. So why is his job not seriously in jeopardy?

[doom88]

Who do you hire in his place? Ask LA to speak to Hexy?

[ruxpin]

Who do you hire in his place? Ask LA to speak to Hexy?

I don't want Hexy. It's a continuation of the old boys club to me. If they were to hire Hexy I'd be okay with it but not doing cartwheels.

I don't know who else. Not really my job and, to be honest, I don't care. I just want the change made and go in a different direction. If I'm driving straight at a wall, it's clear my current direction sucks and I need to change direction. I'll worry about which way to drive after I'm sure I'm not hitting the wall.

[doom88]

I mentioned Hexy over promoting Paddock because he's been in LA learning from Lombardi. Maybe he could bring in some different perspectives? Shrug. I agree it's all good old boys club, but the fact is, a lot of the guys have been with the Flyers in some capacity at some point.

[ruxpin]

I mentioned Hexy over promoting Paddock because he's been in LA learning from Lombardi. Maybe he could bring in some different perspectives? Shrug. I agree it's all good old boys club, but the fact is, a lot of the guys have been with the Flyers in some capacity at some point.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to dismiss either your question or your suggestion. I think Hexy is probably very high on the list of candidates if they've considered a move at all.

I really don't know who else but I'd like to consider a list. I wouldn't do Paddock at all. I wouldn't even have him in the organization. He's utterly worthless to me.

Every time I get into the discussion of "who" for GM I keep coming back to the same nagging feeling: Really doesn't matter until Snider dies.

[DaGreatGazoo]

Who do you hire in his place? Ask LA to speak to Hexy?

Brian Burke.

[Howie58]

Their rings beg to differ. So does the fax that they were the only players giving the kings any chance in the playoffs this year.

But thanks for proving my poit about the thick skilled myopic fans here in Philly (not all, but certainly some and loudly) that can't see straight through their need to be hating someone.

I even said that I didn't think they should fill be flyers, I swear to god the only words you must have read we're Richards and carter and then you went off.

My point was tht the THINKING here in Philly is what's off. It's the thinking that decided those two guys who are now invaluable to a cup champ that returned to the conference finals were better off traded than sorting out.

It's the thinking that got us Bryzgalov and Mason, and a second missed trip to the playoffs in 6 years.

You want I tell me again how I'm wrong?

Homer is struggling to maintain or build a competitive team. He's out of his league and he doesn't have the know how to get it done.

I think the Carter-Richards trade is not the biggie. It is seeing tons of friends former Flyers in the playoffs. It is thinking about Chiarelli's work in Boston or Bowman's work in Chicago that makes me wonder about Homer as strategist rather than opportunist.

Best,Howie

[OccamsRazor]

Here me out.

The way Richards and Carter are performing in the playoffs for the kings the last two years make it clear to me.

Not that I don't like their replacements, not that I think they should still be flyers either.

They are showing everyone that they are not lazy, they are not distracted by girls and they are not on drugs or alcoholics.

They are big time big game clutch performers who play hard and play hurt and lay it all out for their team even when they shouldn't (Kane in OT again not withstanding).

But no, I'm not blaming Homer for letting them go. I'm blaming Homer for not seeing that THEY weren't the problem.

I'm blaming homer for getting the cap gap to such a point where he had to dump them to make any changes.

Some say Snider makes him do these stupid moves and them clean up the mess. I don't care. His job is to right this ship. Stand up to the old fart. Get in his face if he has to. Enough already. We need this team to be run like a pro.

Although some very good points and Richie and Carts i liked, Richie more so than Carter....i'll give Homer one more chance to right the ship i do like the return he got for them.

However Bryz (no he's not alone) has derailed this team more than anyone and must go...he is the anti team mate.

I would take Richie back in a heart beat. One season is all they get Homer and Lavy if they don't get to the 2nd round of the playoffs it's time for a change sorry.

Go Flyers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[doom88]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to dismiss either your question or your suggestion. I think Hexy is probably very high on the list of candidates if they've considered a move at all.

I really don't know who else but I'd like to consider a list. I wouldn't do Paddock at all. I wouldn't even have him in the organization. He's utterly worthless to me.

Every time I get into the discussion of "who" for GM I keep coming back to the same nagging feeling: Really doesn't matter until Snider dies.

No worries, I didn't take it that way. Appreciate it regardless though.

I'd like to consider a list too, but I hardly consider a list with Hexy, Paddock, and Burke viable.

Would a head coach / GM be a good idea in the NHL? The coach would actually have the power to get rid of underperforming players, instead of relying on a benching or healthy scratch. Heck, the guy could walk into a room and threaten to trade everyone to Edmonton if they don't shape up.

[ruxpin]

I hardly consider a list with Hexy, Paddock, and Burke viable.

LOL Agreed. I don't really have any patience for Burke, although I guess the Flyers could do worse. I wonder if Pat Gillick knows anything about hockey.

I'm going to say the head coach/GM thing probably isn't a great idea. I guess it sometimes works in football and other times not. But if it's been done in hockey it's been done very rarely (I know GMs do it as an interim on occasion after firing a coach but they usually seem in an awfully big hurry to get away from the bench). Didn't Mike Keenan carry both mantles at one point somewhere (not in Philly. I want to say St. Louis maybe?). I know this sounds so anti-out of the box but since it's rarely done in the NHL and I'm not sure I know why but know there must be a reason, I'm going to say probably not a great idea.

Anyone else know why they don't? Is it just too much for one person or is it because it typically requires two different personality sets?

[Hexy27]

@ruxpin

I posted something like this a couple of months back and had similar issues in trying to think of a good replacement. Burke was a name that popped up several times in that thread. I don't know who else to consider but it seems there are few options right now.

[ruxpin]

@ruxpin

I posted something like this a couple of months back and had similar issues in trying to think of a good replacement. Burke was a name that popped up several times in that thread. I don't know who else to consider but it seems there are few options right now.

I suspect that if the Flyers were to make a change that they would go for either "old boys" or an established GM (who clearly failed elsewhere or he wouldn't be available, right?). I wouldn't begin to know what name to give as an example, but at some point every successful GM started withOUT NHL experience. Maybe you draw from someone who is an assistant somewhere or someone from junior or college hockey. I know Philly is a strange market to start someone green, and I know this was coach rather than GM but even Mike Keenan started with the Flyers with no NHL head coaching experience or real Flyer connection.

I really am not qualified to come up with any suitable names and probably am not qualified to even come up with a viable suggestion as to type, but I really would like to see a change at the top. I've said before and will again that the whole thing may be a moot discussion so long as Ed Snider is driving the bus.

[murraycraven]

I think the Carter-Richards trade is not the biggie. It is seeing tons of friends former Flyers in the playoffs. It is thinking about Chiarelli's work in Boston or Bowman's work in Chicago that makes me wonder about Homer as strategist rather than opportunist.

Best,Howie

Howie... I think you hit the nail on the head with this post and find it to be incredibly spot on. I look at Homer as the opportunist as well and always seems to be making decisions based on the reactionary nature of team management:

• Goalie - Let's go out and create our own market for a goalie, overpay him and give him a contract until he is 40 years old
  
• Defense - Let's go out and try to land Suter - oh wait, he singed in Minn. Since that did not work let's go try and offer sheet Weber to a monsterous contract - oh wait, that didn't work either. Lets no have a plan B and be left w/ AHL talent in Gervais and Foster...
  

For once I would like this management crew to exercise some patience and build a Team using a strategy. Grow the young group of players, make smart trades that make financial sense and stop the madness with some of these contracts.

Sadly, I see no strategy and if history proves true we will see another offseason of craziness.

[Lindbergh31]

Howie... I think you hit the nail on the head with this post and find it to be incredibly spot on. I look at Homer as the opportunist as well and always seems to be making decisions based on the reactionary nature of team management:

• Goalie - Let's go out and create our own market for a goalie, overpay him and give him a contract until he is 40 years old
  
• Defense - Let's go out and try to land Suter - oh wait, he singed in Minn. Since that did not work let's go try and offer sheet Weber to a monsterous contract - oh wait, that didn't work either. Lets no have a plan B and be left w/ AHL talent in Gervais and Foster...
  

For once I would like this management crew to exercise some patience and build a Team using a strategy. Grow the young group of players, make smart trades that make financial sense and stop the madness with some of these contracts.

Sadly, I see no strategy and if history proves true we will see another offseason of craziness.

The problem is linked to one man, Ed Snider. If he showed the patience and let Holmgren build a contender instead of trying to buy one then Holmgren might have a chance. Snider wants to win another championship so bad but doesn't want to do it the way the Flyers did when they did win their two championship in the 70's - thru the draft and trading players to benefit the team. If Holmgren was fired and they brought in Brian Burke, Snider and him would clash from the start which wouldn't be good. Hexie has been away from the Flyers culture for a long enough time that he wouldn't be a bad choice because he understands what Snider wants, he understands the passion of the Flyers fans and he's learned to build a championship team thru his time with Lombardi in LA. I can see lots of changes this summer I only hope these ones help the team unlike years past. The Read/Bernier rumour is interesting, if it happened it would be interesting to see 2 young goalie fighting over the number one spot but the bonus would be seeing Bryzgalov gone.

[DinahMoeHumm]

Joe Nieuwendyk

[Hexy27]

I think the Bob move alone should get Homer run out of town. There was no real reason to trade Bob then sign Leighton (who we also traded) and Bouche as backups.

Snider may get in the way of many things (that is why I don't blame Homer for Bryz) but I doubt he was forcing Homer to make that mess of a backup goalie situation.

[mojo1917]

@Hexy27

i really think the Bob trade was to benefit Bryzgalov.

" now look Ilya, there's no one breathing down your neck for starts....let's see what you can do" and Ilya went out and while not exactly pooping the bed did not do anything to make any fan of this team (toughfighter 83 excluded) think he was the answer in net.

Every time I think about the Bob situation it highlights to me how awful Pete is at handling goaltenders. It's like he needs an assistant to think the goalie position through with him or at least say " uh hey Pete, that's 15 in a row for Bryz how about giving Leights a shot on the second half of the back to back with travel ". I'm not a Lavy hater either, but he is awful when it comes to goalies.