offense from your defense

[ruxpin]

what's the over/under on him stabilizing and getting a majority of a season in without serious injury? I mean, do we figure that just isn't gonna happen, or has he been way unlucky for the last couple years?

I don't mean to ruin my reputation as the eternal optimist [sic], but I would bet large quantities of alcohol that he is done. I say that because even when he did come back this year he seemed to play timid, as if he was scared of being re-injured. I don't blame him for that. I have a hard time thinking I'd be any different. But it makes him ineffective. Unless he can overcome that, I think we can look forward to a career of alternating periods of not playing well and being injured.

[aziz]

<br />you have the possibility of either Coburn or Meszaros being expendable should you choose to move one. <br />

well, maybe, but...you aren't gonna be upgrading on either of them without a pretty big package. if healthy, i'd put the both of them in the...what...top 50 dmen in the league? in terms of overall effectiveness. neither are mindblowing, but there's a good 600+ guys out there that you don't want instead. so, you either shuffle top-50 for top-50, or roll a top-50 up with a lot of other stuff, and take a shot at a top 10. I dunno.

bottom line, I don't think either of those guys hurt the team, neither are problems. granted, they aren't the solutions, either, they're just troops. but you need troops. they're pretty good troops. I wouldn't be actively shopping either of them. obviously, if a crazy deal presents itself, then great.

[ruxpin]

Posted Image

Holy crap on a cracker. That looks like Gummy.

[aziz]

Unless he can overcome that, I think we can look forward to a career of alternating periods of not playing well and being injured.

that's fair, I think. though, that might very well be something he can shake off with a summer in between. maybe. gagne was the same way for a long time, real mouselike for months after coming back. I like meszaros, his consistent presence would be a big upgrade to last season. fingers crossed on that one.

[aziz]

he gets moobs every summer.

http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/PQKieogetRT8cLVOHKh3TQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/sptusnhlexperts/BUFFFFFFFFWEDDDDD.jpg

Edited June 3, 2013 by aziz

[ruxpin]

I wouldn't be actively shopping either of them.

I'd be hesitant to shop Coburn. He seems on one year off the next. So you'd think he's due for a good year. Plus, he plays better when he's not expected to carry his pairing. If the Flyers stay healthy and as-is, he shouldn't have to. I wouldn't think, anyway.

I don't think we'd get a heck of a lot for Meszaros, to be honest, so the discussion is likely moot. You guys hold him in much higher regard than I do. You guys are right more than you're wrong so I need to consider that, but personally? Personally, I think if Meszaros is top 50 in this league then there are a hell of a lot of lousy defensemen. Personally? I'd trade him for a Klondike Bar.

[aziz]

@ruxpin

the original or the ice cream sandwich ones?

[ruxpin]

that's fair, I think. though, that might very well be something he can shake off with a summer in between. maybe. gagne was the same way for a long time, real mouselike for months after coming back. I like meszaros, his consistent presence would be a big upgrade to last season. fingers crossed on that one.

Yeah, that's a good point. Like I said, I can't blame him. He's had some serious stuff go on. I'd be cautious too, I'm sure. If he can return to the form that he was the year he won the Barry Ashbee award, then he's a tremendous upgrade to what we had last year. And we're likely talking 2nd pairing at this point too, so yeah, I guess I'm on board with your POV.

I just have this nagging feeling that the guy is done way too young.

[ruxpin]

@ruxpin

the original or the ice cream sandwich ones?

Wait. They make ice cream sandwich ones?? I didn't know that. Sold!

[aziz]

<br />I just have this nagging feeling that the guy is done way too young. <br />

i'm trying to resist the same nagging feeling, myself, really.

[aziz]

right?!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_KIlRv3Ur6RQ/TFR94TJu65I/AAAAAAAACCQ/IYLm6Kj0DTs/s1600/KlondikeVanillaSandwhichBox.jpg

[toughfighter83]

this is the same d core that gave us more losses than wins this year and you expect that things are going to be different? it's not going to happen, you cant win if you dont have any good players, besides schenn and timms, it's not enough for this team to compete. what has mez and coburn done for this team that makes you think they are so better than chara and keith? mez is injury prone, he was bad with ottawa plus with tampa, i dont want to hear the injury issues with coburn, when healthy he's never physical, he's always on the ice an opposing team scoring a goal, he cant score goals, he's lazy, he's more like curtis foster and matt carle. you wonder why the thrashers werent so high on him and easily got rid of him.

if you believe this d core will us a cup, you need to get your head examined.

[hf101]

it's true, the flyers were missing 5 of their starting top 6 at one point, weren't they? everyone back and healthy is a huge upgrade to the mess of last season. that said, there isn't an impact figure there. that, I think, is ultimately what people want to see when they start threads like this: there has to be someone whose name has been mentioned in Norris voting in the last 3 years or things are hopeless. right or wrong.

Exactly. I'd rather see a defense of equal components. If you lose one to injury another d-man fits right in. Having a Norris candidate can also mean that a team can easily be lost without that player. For example look how the Penguins struggle to win games with Letang out of the lineup.

what's the over/under on him stabilizing and getting a majority of a season in without serious injury? I mean, do we figure that just isn't gonna happen, or has he been way unlucky for the last couple years? I really don't know. really like him as a possible 2/3 guy if he could put a run of games together.

I used to be hopeful Mezsaros could be that 2/3 guy when we acquired him from Tampa. He is due for a healthy season. Credit to him that he works hard to return to play, but I wouldn't get my hopes expecting it to happen. But IF he has a solid season next year the team benefits for sure.

[aziz]

this is the same d core that gave us more losses than wins this year and you expect that things are going to be different?

well, yeah. as I recall, the flyers' top 6 defensemen did not skate a single game together this year. those 6 in the lineup at the same time is guaranteed to be an improvement. how much of an improvement is up for debate, but yeah, it'd be different.

what has mez and coburn done for this team that makes you think they are so better than chara and keith?

who said anything about chara and keith? (chara is, imo, the one of the most overrated players in the league, but that's a different topic) meszaros and Coburn aren't 'so better' than chara and keith...but how do you propose getting chara and keith into flyers jerseys? the reality is those players aren't on the team and aren't going to be on the team. you work with what you have and what you can get. imo, you can't get a whole lot better than meszaros and Coburn for bits and pieces, and when you start moving more than bits and pieces you open up holes in other places. you wanna talk about trading half the team away to get chara or something, then go for it. i'd love to hear the plan.

[ruxpin]

this is the same d core that gave us more losses than wins this year and you expect that things are going to be different? it's not going to happen, you cant win if you dont have any good players, besides schenn and timms, it's not enough for this team to compete.

Because it's not the same group. They were very rarely playing at the same time due to injury. The *hope* is that if they stay reasonably healthy it's an upgrade already from what we just experienced. I appreciate the skepticism, however.

"what has mez and coburn done for this team that makes you think they are so better than chara and keith?"

Who said they were better than Chara or Keith? I think everyone is hoping they are serviceable 2nd pairing guys. That's a little bit of a stretch, I think, because yes, "mez is injury prone"

"he was bad with ottawa plus with tampa"

Yeah, I have to agree here. Probably why we were able to get him for just a 2nd round draft pick. But the first season with us he played way better than at any time on either of those two teams. I'm not nearly as high on him as others so you won't see a lot of defense of him coming from me. But in the current group of defensemen I see him as #4. If that's the case, he's quite sufficient in that role, if healthy. The healthy part is the concern. Well that and being gun-shy due to injury.

"i dont want to hear the injury issues with coburn"

It wouldn't have occurred to me to use an injury excuse. He was simply horrible this year even when healthy.

" when healthy he's never physical, he's always on the ice an opposing team scoring a goal, he cant score goals, he's lazy, he's more like curtis foster and matt carle."

You had me up until the Carle reference. I liked Carle and would take him in a heartbeat over Coburn. Carle was fairly good as a puck mover. Sometimes suspect on the defensive side of things but usually okay. Carle couldn't score if he was standing inside the net, but he was good for you for the break out. I don't blame Coburn for not being physical because it's just not his make up, but I do have to concede that point. Lazy? I can't argue with that either. I don't know how else you explain his sometimes good sometimes truly horrible Jekyl/Hyde routine. Someone might call it "focus" but eh...it's two words just spelled differently.

"you wonder why the thrashers werent so high on him and easily got rid of him."

I'd have to guess their front office predicted this.

That said, if he can be kept on the second pair or even the third, he could be serviceable.

"if you believe this d core will us a cup, you need to get your head examined."

If ANYONE is talking Cup right now, they have to have their head examined. We're at least 2 years out with the most optimistic delusions.

[doom88]

If memory serves me right, Atlanta gave up Coburn because they thought they could do something in the playoffs and needed a veteran defender. Coburn was way too young at that point, not to mention their desire to show Kovalchuk they wanted to win. No sinister plot this time.

[Polaris922]

You do realize the Flyers had the 3rd ranked power play in the entire league!? That equates to only two other teams with better power plays in the entire NHL.

Additionally, Kimmo was ranked 7th among defenseman in points in the entire league.

Point wise he is in the top two percent in the league.

I am starting to feel like you might be Eklund . Throw everything at the wall and sooner or later something will stick.

Actually your comment argues in favor of the point. Your power play did well but if you think about that, there is no real forechecking on your defensemen during that power play. The worst puck carrying defenseman in the league can lug the puck up ice with nobody pressuring him. As for Timmonen, again this season most of his points are on the power play. He's not the gifted puck moving, carry it and transition defenseman he once was.

I said it last season, this season, and now I'll say it again. Your team really is only one Solid puck moving defenseman away from elite status. That is why I had worried you guys might land Weber, and I celebrated when you did not.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Polaris922

[murraycraven]

Actually your comment argues in favor of the point. Your power play did well but if you think about that, there is no real forechecking on your defensemen during that power play. The worst puck carrying defenseman in the league can lug the puck up ice with nobody pressuring him. As for Timmonen, again this season most of his points are on the power play. He's not the gifted puck moving, carry it and transition defenseman he once was.

I said it last season, this season, and now I'll say it again. Your team really is only one Solid puck moving defenseman away from elite status. That is why I had worried you guys might land Weber, and I celebrated when you did not.

Polaris... that was my point about the power play. It was a very good power play and Timmo's points came from the power play. If they had a puck moving defenseman that could actually move the puck 5 on 5 that would be a huge bonus but right now they are in high demand and hard to acquire. The argument was based on our power play which was far from bad this past season. The issue was 5 on 5 and we were flat out terrible

Not sure if we are one puck moving defensman away from being elite but I think it would put us back in the playoffs. Young team so I still see them a few years away form being elite - and not to mention Bryz in net...

Good luck tonight (in the nice sportsmanship way) but I hope Chara rips off Sid's head (in the true Flyers's fan way)

Edited June 3, 2013 by murraycraven

[doom88]

@murraycraven

Cindy is whining again, no luck needed. Despite the fact that the Pens are instigating crap...

[blocker]

If i was to eeeeever eva eva eva eeeevvvvaaaa see Coburn make a play like that i would just **** my pants!!!!

When you're my age, you won't have to wait that long.

[Polaris922]

@murraycraven

Ok bid I didn't see you we're agreeing with the subject. My bad.

@doom88

Only thing they're instigating is easy goal scoring by the Bruins.

[doom88]

@murraycraven

Ok bid I didn't see you we're agreeing with the subject. My bad.

@doom88

Only thing they're instigating is easy goal scoring by the Bruins.

So Crosby did nothing around Chara, or the goalie skating back to the bench?

[Polaris922]

So Crosby did nothing around Chara, or the goalie skating back to the bench?

In game two? I didn't see anything but the normal yapping they all do to one another. Did I miss something Hartnellish?

[ruxpin]

In game two? I didn't see anything but the normal yapping they all do to one another. Did I miss something Hartnellish?

What's your take on what's going on? I posted in the shout box that I am STUNNED by this series I thought Boston would be Pitt's biggest test and give them a hard time. I actually thought Boston would be a tougher opponent than either team coming out of the west. But I never expected what I'm seeing and had Pens in 6 or 7. That's still not a mathematical impossibility (and obviously the only way Pitt wins this now), but what does it look like from the perspective of someone who watches a helluvalot more Pens hockey than I do?

What do you do in goal? (I don't think that's the problem, really, but I think it may very quickly become one)

[murraycraven]

Cindey and LeWang are not playing well that is for sure... they need the big guys to step up soon...

Edited June 4, 2013 by murraycraven