offense from your defense

[murraycraven]

Yeah. You have to at least be able to count to 4.

that might be a little tough for some

[RonJeremy]

Had we just taken Hamilton instead of Coots, this wouldnt be such a pressing issue, and if a another good dmen fell our way this year, wed be set

[JackStraw]

Hell, I think Hatcher counts

Remember when they put Hatch in front of the net on the PP? He was goal scoring machine for a little while there...

[doom88]

Remember when they put Hatch in front of the net on the PP? He was goal scoring machine for a little while there...

Thought that was Pronger?

[peter puck]

Could it be a case of no defense from the offense limiting the offense from the defense

[toughfighter83]

Could it be a case of no defense from the offense limiting the offense from the defense

it's actually both but my point is that if this defense doesnt have a puck mover and a goal scorer, there's no chance the flyers will be a contender until they address it.

[toughfighter83]

Could it be a case of no defense from the offense limiting the offense from the defense

it's both but if there's no puck mover or a goal scorer on defense, they will never be contenders, it will be the same like this year, it will be the same problems especially on pp with the team just passing pucks for 2 minutes and cant find someone that can shoot.

[JackStraw]

Thought that was Pronger?

Before Pronger.

[ruxpin]

that might be a little tough for some

Well played, my friend. Well played.

[ruxpin]

@murraycraven

I'm fairly sure I'm on ignore. That is SO liberating!

[murraycraven]

it's both but if there's no puck mover or a goal scorer on defense, they will never be contenders, it will be the same like this year, it will be the same problems especially on pp with the team just passing pucks for 2 minutes and cant find someone that can shoot.

You do realize the Flyers had the 3rd ranked power play in the entire league!? That equates to only two other teams with better power plays in the entire NHL.

Additionally, Kimmo was ranked 7th among defenseman in points in the entire league.

Point wise he is in the top two percent in the league.

I am starting to feel like you might be Eklund . Throw everything at the wall and sooner or later something will stick.

Edited June 1, 2013 by murraycraven

[doom88]

Why settle for facts when you can go all in with unsubstantiated opinion?

[doom88]

Could it be a case of no defense from the offense limiting the offense from the defense

5 on 5, yes. The D has to stay back because the forwards don't get back with regular urgency.

If the D pinches, it usually ends up an odd man rush, which in turn with Bryz allegedly minding the net, goes in.

[toughfighter83]

You do realize the Flyers had the 3rd ranked power play in the entire league!? That equates to only two other teams with better power plays in the entire NHL.

Additionally, Kimmo was ranked 7th among defenseman in points in the entire league.

Point wise he is in the top two percent in the league.

I am starting to feel like you might be Eklund . Throw everything at the wall and sooner or later something will stick.

what about the other games when the flyers couldnt score on powerplays when it mattered like ottawa and boston when they were in the playoff hunt? stats are meanless if you are just using it to ignore the needs on this team, if that's what homer is thinking then this team will be no different than this year, same crap/excuses different year.

and when timms retires, the flyers are going to get worst, especially for the offensive side of it

my point is you have to have balanced scoring, not just timms doing it all, because when he's not on ice and giroux, they cant score on the pp, other players arent stepping it up, that's why the flyers last year before pronger was injuried were good because they had balanced scoring and not relying on the fowards to do it all, it was the d as well.

this year they had no balance.

Edited June 1, 2013 by toughfighter83

[murraycraven]

what about the other games when the flyers couldnt score on powerplays when it mattered like ottawa and boston when they were in the playoff hunt? stats are meanless if you are just using it to ignore the needs on this team, if that's what homer is thinking then this team will be no different than this year, same crap/excuses different year.

and when timms retires, the flyers are going to get worst, especially for the offensive side of it.

So by that logic every team should score every power play right? Ottawa had the #1 ranked PK in the league so there are times when you might not score against really good units. If it was easy as just going out and scoring, as you say, why even have a power play or penalty kill? Boston's PK was terrible this year - they were only ranked 4th in the league! Terrible, I know...

They were THIRD in the league dude - third! They had a very good power play and some might consider it an elite power play based on the ranking. Stats are there for a reason - they show the efficiencny or inefficiency of what is being measured. In this case the Flyers power play was among the best in the league while one of our defensemen was on the top 2% of the league in points.

I mean seriously did you ever hold a hockey stick?

PPs, PKs, offense and defense go through cycles where they are playing well and not playing well. Your argument that our PP is not good is complete nonsense. Every time someone tries to give you solid factsyou change course and throw in a differnent "opinion" to change the subject. Nothing I stated is speculation and all of the numbers I provided are facts. Your arguments are always based on "what ifs" and this "excuse" vs. that excuse.

You like to say that "what about the time we couldn't score" yet you fluff Bryz's fuzzy peach bag at every chance! So based on your logic what about the times Bryz could not make the save(s) (and there were a lot) to get us into the playoffs?

No **** when Timms retires they are going to lose something but we are a while away from the end of next season and we have a draft and FA to go through - maybe they will address this need like they have been trying to do for the past 2 years. You act like they ignore the position while they have tried (and solved for short peiod - IE: PRonger) to address the position.

I am in no way pro-Homer or Snider but you cant fault them for not trying.

Lastly, your comparison of Bryz to Hamels on the message boad makes me realize that you have no clue what your talking about. Comparing salaries from baseball to hockey is like comparing oranges and #2 pencils. The two sports that should never be compared is hockey and baseball. Just a matter of fact again - at the least Hamels won a Championship and was the MVP. What has your sacred Bryz done other than suck up the joint since he came here?

Edited June 2, 2013 by hf101
Removed content

[murraycraven]

5 on 5, yes. The D has to stay back because the forwards don't get back with regular urgency.

If the D pinches, it usually ends up an odd man rush, which in turn with Bryz allegedly minding the net, goes in.

Doom, you are right on here. It is also part of Lavy's system where the forwards in the offensive zone are aggressively low so if there is a turnover the forwards are really deep which also leads to a lot of odd man rushes. This is why I think they need ot resign Gagne - he is such a good two way player and I think Laughton will bring the same type of play next season.

[doom88]

If the offense could pass effectively and battle in corners, the aggression wouldn't be as unreasonable. They would be maintaining possession down low, wearing the other team out.

[toughfighter83]

So by that logic every team should score every power play right? Ottawa had the #1 ranked PK in the league so there are times when you might not score against really good units. If it was easy as just going out and scoring, as you say, why even have a power play or penalty kill? Boston's PK was terrible this year - they were only ranked 4th in the league! Terrible, I know...

They were THIRD in the league dude - third! They had a very good power play and some might consider it an elite power play based on the ranking. Stats are there for a reason - they show the efficiencny or inefficiency of what is being measured. In this case the Flyers power play was among the best in the league while one of our defensemen was on the top 2% of the league in points.

I mean seriously did you ever hold a hockey stick?

PPs, PKs, offense and defense go through cycles where they are playing well and not playing well. Your argument that our PP is not good is complete nonsense. Every time someone tries to give you solid facts you change course and throw in a differnent "opinion" to change the subject. It is honeslty like trying to debate a 10 year old. Nothing I stated is speculation and all of the numbers I provided are facts. Your arguments are always based on "what ifs" and this "excuse" vs. that excuse.

You like to say that "what about the time we couldn't score" yet you fluff Bryz's fuzzy peach bag at every chance! So based on your logic what about the times Bryz could not make the save(s) (and there were a lot) to get us into the playoffs?

No **** when Timms retires they are going to lose something but we are a while away from the end of next season and we have a draft and FA to go through - maybe they will address this need like they have been trying to do for the past 2 years. You act like they ignore the position while they have tried (and solved for short peiod - IE: PRonger) to address the position.

I am in no way pro-Homer or Snider but you cant fault them for not trying.

Lastly, your comparison of Bryz to Hamels on the message boad makes me realize that you have no clue what your talking about. Comparing salaries from baseball to hockey is like comparing oranges and #2 pencils. I never read a more idiotic comparison on this board honestly and if two sports should never be compared it is hockey and baseball. Just a matter of fact again - at the least Hamels won a Championship and was the MVP. What has your sacred Bryz done other than suck up the joint since he came here?

If I offended you I apologize... now change you avatar (or get a freaking tan for Christ's sake) and get a new keyboard where commas are not present.

A - f'ing - men.

dont tell me what to do, i dont tell you what to do, what makes you so special to insult me? i dont accept your apology, everything i post you complain, instead of complaining, tell me how to improve this team instead of using stats for everything, i dont buy that bs, it's tiring of hearing you complain, im not complaining im offering ideas on how to fix this team, if you dont like it dont post at all.

Edited June 1, 2013 by toughfighter83

[aziz]

people call you out because you say these really super specific completely generalized things that have no basis in any actual reality. you identify these really hockey-101 things and declare them the problem, solve that thing and all will be well...but no details on how to do the solving. super specific and completely generalized. MOAR POWERPLAY GOALS!! PUCK MOVING DEFENSEMAN!! LETHAL POINT SHOT!! well, ok, but who? how?

we are understand how the game works. score more goals than the other guy = win games. creating a thread about how the problem is the flyers don't score enough goals really doesn't give us anything other than a chance to make fun at poor English skills.

so, what puck-moving/lethal shooting defenseman should the flyers be looking at? how would they get him? free agent? trade? draft? if it's free agent, what kind of cap space should the flyers look to dedicate to the guy? trade, who should they move? draft, will he be around at pick 11, or should the flyers be looking to move up?

you aren't offering ideas on how to fix the team, you are saying very obvious things and declaring them The Problem in turn. like you've had some dramatic epiphany. except for goaltending, that is perfectly fine. so, yeah. your incomprehensible defense of bryzgalov coupled with your un-nuanced declarations underlined by your horrific grammar problems result in people getting a little short with you some times.

Edited June 2, 2013 by hf101
removed content

[ruxpin]

what about the other games when the flyers couldnt score on powerplays when it mattered like ottawa and boston when they were in the playoff hunt?

When were they in the playoff hunt?

stats are meanless if you are just using it to ignore the needs on this team,

It doesn't matter how many times you say this, it doesn't make it correct. Note the first quote "what about the other games." Even with a simpleton's understanding of stats you should understand that there are no other games. Those games are included in the stats. The fact that they were third in the league over the entire season means that there were 27 teams with more "other" games than the Flyers. It means that 27 other teams over the course of the season did worse. It means that CLEARLY the power play is not one of the issues for this team. I'm sorry to include actual facts and stats in the response, but that's what those of us who operate in reality use to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. It's not that "stats are meanless [sic]." They can actually be quite mean to those who do not have the capacity to understand them or to use them properly. And over the years, I can't tell you how many times I've thought I had a fairly good point and aziz hits me with numbers that are just simply inarguable. And it's back to the drawing board.

I will say this, though: in many instances stats don't tell the WHOLE story and you need to actually watch the games AND understand what you're watching. In your case, I would highly recommend learning to use stats.

if that's what homer is thinking then this team will be no different than this year, same crap/excuses different year.

A perfect example of the conclusion accidentally being right despite a flawed premise.

and when timms retires, the flyers are going to get worst, especially for the offensive side of it

You considered this insightful enough to include? Here's another one, when the sun goes down it will get darker.

my point is you have to have balanced scoring, not just timms doing it all, because when he's not on ice and giroux, they cant score on the pp, other players arent stepping it up, that's why the flyers last year before pronger was injuried were good because they had balanced scoring and not relying on the fowards to do it all, it was the d as well.

Yes, you have to have balanced scoring. Thank you for the information from the summer class you take before you're allowed to start the 100-level classes. Much appreciated.

Sorry to use stats and facts and reality again, but it's what those of us adults who live in reality use to measure the veracity of a claim. It's actually dropping two objects to see if they really do hit the ground at the same time. And the truth is that Voracek and Simmonds were both very capable of scoring without Giroux or Timonen. Both were in the top 15 of the league in PP scoring. Do we want more? Well sure, you always want more. Even the kids on the AT&T commercials know that more is better. But the power play is not nearly a primary concern.

I agreed earlier in the thread that a puck-mover and a point shot would be worthwhile. So is having both legs. But how do you get what you don't have? That's actually more of a worthwhile post. If you're lost in the wild, it's not really helpful to say "the muskrat needs to be cooked" if you don't have any worthwhile suggestion nor plan on HOW to cook it.

Saying we need a puck-mover or point shot with no reasonable explanation whatsoever as to who or how or the trade-off effects it might have isn't helpful. It's more akin to "oh man, the village idiot showed up at the town council meeting again." At first, the council will be patient and friendly because they feel bad because they're aware the village idiot doesn't know any better. At some point, though, in order to preserve the integrity of the agenda and the purpose of the group, the council begins to scold the idiot for interrupting with nonsense. Finally, the council is forced to act realizing the growing frustration and agitation in the room. The council finally expels the village idiot so the adults can continue with the conversation and before the point to even having a group is rendered meaningless and an ultimately frustrating experience. No matter how much the idiot wants to complain -that he/she is being mistreated, from the perspective of the community, it's something that needs to be done.

[Phlyer1]

5 on 5 was more of a problem than special teams.

[ruxpin]

5 on 5 was more of a problem than special teams.

Yes, definitely. And this may be a good example of where the type of defenseman TF is talking about may have come in handy.

The question is where do you get such a player? It's possible he's in the draft, but at #11 I don't think it's a player that will likely be ready yet. Maybe Gus develops into the puck mover. Who do you trade for and who do you trade? I don't know.

[toughfighter83]

since briere

Yes, definitely. And this may be a good example of where the type of defenseman TF is talking about may have come in handy.

The question is where do you get such a player? It's possible he's in the draft, but at #11 I don't think it's a player that will likely be ready yet. Maybe Gus develops into the puck mover. Who do you trade for and who do you trade? I don't know.

since briere is being bought out, i would try to go after boyle and dustin byfuglien and trade mez and coburn to get rid of cap space

timms-byfuglien

boyle-schenn

grossman- lauridsen

Edited June 2, 2013 by toughfighter83

[ruxpin]

since briere

since briere is being bought out, i would try to go after boyle and dustin byfuglien and trade mez and coburn to get rid of cap space

timms-byfuglien

boyle-schenn

grossman- lauridsen

I'll let the cap experts duke it out because I don't have time to look at numbers, but just as good an idea as any. I wonder about Lauridsen being ready and would substitute Gus in his place for now, but ultimately yeah, not bad.

[doom88]

Mesz and Coburn can carry the puck, when healthy and not forced into a stay at home type respectively. If the forwards do their part, much of this will fall back into place. Maybe it's just growing pains due to having young forwards?

Remember, Carle wasn't exactly a fan favorite, and he did this well. Everyone can't be Lidstrom, Pronger, or Weber.