Carchidi says Yandle = Coby+Couts+"a draft pick"

[JackStraw]

Carle got 5.5 over what 5 years... buddy that's what the market is for a guy with his set of skills, we could have had him for 5.25 which would have been a bargain.

If Dennis Wideman is worth $5.25M for five years Carle is certainly worth at least that.

[murraycraven]

It would take a lot more for that guy.

You are right... my use of the word "considering" was way overstated. If Homer could pull that off I would forgive him for all of his previous faults. OEL is a very special and young player.

Edited April 29, 2013 by murraycraven

[JackStraw]

You are right... my use of the word "considering" was way overstated. If Homer could pull that off I would forgive him for all of his previous faults. OEL is a very special and young player.

I would personally deliver popcorn to Homer's door every day if he pulled that off.

[Adamflyers]

I would not trade Couts for Yandle, not because Yandle wouldn't help but because if you're trading Couts I would rather it be for a legit #1 d-man (which I don't think Yandle is, and it would take more than Couts for such a player anyway) or for a package of young players that would add some defense and forward depth to the team. Coburn + Couturier + pick is too much for Yandle.

Well here is where we agree. When I say a shut down D-man, this is what I am talking about. A legit #1 who is responsible in his own zone, who does not lose his assignments and who is not just a pylon out there. Someone who can keep the crease clear and jump on rebounds in our own zone. I like Schenn and Grossmann (Coby not as much as I used to) but they don't fit eh bill of what I meant by "shut down". Prob should have just said "Stud"

I do understand the value of guys like Carle and Yandle, but I don't think they are worth the price tag nor were they the missing piece of this team's D this year.

I also understand that Pronger is not coming back, but my point in talking about him is that, IMO, his is the the skill set that was needed most this year. That is obviously a very tough spot to replace.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Adamflyers

[JackStraw]

@Adamflyers - ok, we basically agree (although I think Carle/Yandle are fine for 2nd pair types, or #2 if paired with stud guy). Yes, "stud" makes more sense that "shut down guy".

[Adamflyers]

@adamsflyers

not going to kill you about your post there, though i do want to say guys with yandle/ carle's skating ability handle the puck a great deal more than their less mobile partners, so they will have more turnovers because they have more opportunity and face more forechecking pressure.

Carle got 5.5 over what 5 years... buddy that's what the market is for a guy with his set of skills, we could have had him for 5.25 which would have been a bargain.

i was on the "he's not worth the money" boat too until a guy (james wisnewski) signed his contract that was in the carle ball park for term and cap hit and carle has had better numbers and is a better player... so yeah it sucks but the market for those puck moving defensmen is rather bullish .

those speedy guys win the race to the puck in the corner, don't panic when a guy is bearing down on them, and create opportunities for offense going the other way, who on our team did that for us this year ?

Fair enough Mojo. I certainly do see value in players like Carle and Yandle, but I did not see those assets as being what failed the D this year. As you stated, guys like that handle the puck a lot and are prone to turn overs, which is a fair assessment, but my point is that I I don't think 5.5 M a year is worth adding turnovers to the line up. Right now, they need responsible guys who don't get lost and confused when the opposition is buzzing in their zone.

I did not really intend to make this a Carle debate! LOL I intended to talk much more about Yandle, but my initial post turned into a Carle discussion, likely because I have seen him play far more then Yandle.

[OccamsRazor]

We've been over this; I like Yandle. I like him more than Carle

let me start by saying NO!! Yandle is just like Carle offensive upside yet will still play soft in front of his net and turn the puck over...i'll pass!

[aziz]

<br />I certainly do see value in players like Carle and Yandle, but I did not see those assets as being what failed the D this year.<br />

not disagreeing, but want to point out that a dman or two with a good transition game helps the flyers get out and stay out of their defensive zone in the first place. a yandle or carle helps by turning defensive zone panic into a breakout.

[canoli]

Moving one of our better D-man (who played like crap this year) to get a D-man is dumb. We need to add D-men not subtract them, even if you rate Yandle more valuable than Coburn, which I'm not sure he is. I like them both, they bring different strengths.

I can feel the hate growing for Coburn ... but maybe we should give him next year - hell give everybody (except you-know-who) next year to get back on track. This was a stupid lock-out year that is best forgotten. Coburn will be fine. He will be a solid defender again imo, despite his struggles this year, but it looks like he'll never be the guy to lead a defense. This was the year for him to step up and instead he stepped back. I know I said it's a throwaway year but we should not have seen that much of a regression from a veteran like Coburn, even if he is a young-ish veteran.

But he could use some help. Offering some of the stockpile of forwards we have for Yandle - that makes sense.

[radoran]

Moving one of our better D-man (who played like crap this year) to get a D-man is dumb. We need to add D-men not subtract them, even if you rate Yandle more valuable than Coburn, which I'm not sure he is. I like them both, they bring different strengths.

I can feel the hate growing for Coburn ... but maybe we should give him next year - hell give everybody (except you-know-who) next year to get back on track. This was a stupid lock-out year that is best forgotten. Coburn will be fine. He will be a solid defender again imo, despite his struggles this year, but it looks like he'll never be the guy to lead a defense. This was the year for him to step up and instead he stepped back. I know I said it's a throwaway year but we should not have seen that much of a regression from a veteran like Coburn, even if he is a young-ish veteran.

But he could use some help. Offering some of the stockpile of forwards we have for Yandle - that makes sense.

Yes, but the problem is that Phoenix has themselves a top flight defenseman signed at $5.25M per for the next three years. They will need some sort of replacement for that. After OEL, their next guy is Michalek.

I am all for moving some assets to improve the defense, I just don't know if there is a particular fit here.

Meszaros could have more value given he has just the one more year on his deal - depending on what a team is looking for. Oddly enough, he's also the vet without some kind of NTC which means he can actually be dealt easily.

Now, I'm quite fond of Read, but he's up after next season as well and is going to want more than the $900K he's making now at the same time the team has to re-sign Giroux, BSchenn and Couturier.

How about Meszaros, Read and swapping firsts with someone?

[Polaris922]

Want to reduce turnovers in your end? It starts with the breakout. Who starts the breakout? A puck moving defenseman. Who does Philly have as a puck moving defenseman? Nobody. All due respect to Timonen's past, but we're talking about the present, and this season proved your defense needs THAT guy. Well THAT guy is a Yandle type. He was fourth in scoring amongst D-men and brings everything you lack.

Let and is a bit soft at times, turns the puck over at times, is out of position at times... But he's our #1. Shut down D are much more common than these guys. Coburn is more easily replaced and cheaper too.

Pass on a guy like Yandle... As a Pens fan I'm all for it!

[flyercanuck]

Letang was very impressive last postseason.

[Jmdodgesrt4]

@Polaris922. I disagree. I'm not for one second trading away any of my youth for anything. All I would be doing is trying to trade coby/mezz along with our pick to move up a bit in the draft or try to acquire another 1st rd pick with the same players plus our second rounder. Our five on five play stank for almost 3/4 of the year. Kimmo played with a broken foot for weeks before he allowed it to be discovered and yet he was I believe 4th in dmen in points. Six million for that type of production is very fair and he still shows he is a top dman. I would like to have yandle but not at the asking price. He is just too soft of a player. The flyers best bet is to draft best available and go the year and see what happens and then sign letang if need be.

[Polaris922]

Letang was very impressive last postseason.

Name me a defenseman in our series who was! Lol. But Letang is always a candidate for Norris, even injury shortened like this year. You need a guy like that.

[Polaris922]

@Polaris922. I disagree. I'm not for one second trading away any of my youth for anything. All I would be doing is trying to trade coby/mezz along with our pick to move up a bit in the draft or try to acquire another 1st rd pick with the same players plus our second rounder. Our five on five play stank for almost 3/4 of the year. Kimmo played with a broken foot for weeks before he allowed it to be discovered and yet he was I believe 4th in dmen in points. Six million for that type of production is very fair and he still shows he is a top dman. I would like to have yandle but not at the asking price. He is just too soft of a player. The flyers best bet is to draft best available and go the year and see what happens and then sign letang if need be.

Good luck with that thinking. You're deep at center... Not defense.

[Jmdodgesrt4]

Anything is possible. Pens are in serious problems after next season with letang demanding top dollar along with malkin and the other free agents they have at this seasons end and next.

[doom88]

Name me a defenseman in our series who was! Lol. But Letang is always a candidate for Norris, even injury shortened like this year. You need a guy like that.

Only because Norris factors in so much offensive stats. Mike Green was a candidate one year!

[terp]

not disagreeing, but want to point out that a dman or two with a good transition game helps the flyers get out and stay out of their defensive zone in the first place. a yandle or carle helps by turning defensive zone panic into a breakout.

This.....(I haven't seen anyone use it for awhile, so throw it in). I'll take it a step further and say this is the single biggest thing keeping them from being a respectable team. And you kind of had to figure this was going to happen after Proger was injured and Carle left. They have a lot of good shot blockers and defensive defenseman but in the end it isn't a good defense if it can't get the puck up ice.

Of course I'd like to see it fixed but not in yet another expensive, impatient trade that sends away an important part of the future.

[Polaris922]

Only because Norris factors in so much offensive stats. Mike Green was a candidate one year!

The fact remains that these guys make a huge impact defensively as well. They're offensive talents, but their ability to transition from defense to the breakout game reduces turnovers, reduces opponent scoring opportunities, and increases the chances that your team wins the game. Case in point... Many Flyers fans think Letang is soft, but when he's not in our lineup, we have a worse winning percentage then when either Crosby or Malkin are out. So you tell me how important that offensive skill set is in your number one D man.

[trevluk]

Anything is possible. Pens are in serious problems after next season with letang demanding top dollar along with malkin and the other free agents they have at this seasons end and next.

I'm not sure how serious of a problem that is. The Pens may not be able to keep both of those All Star players? That's a problem the Flyers wish they had.

[Polaris922]

I'm not sure how serious of a problem that is. The Pens may not be able to keep both of those All Star players? That's a problem the Flyers wish they had.

I'm thinking Malkin signs the same as Crosby, and they'd dump Martin before losing Letang. They'll make it work somehow. Shero is shrewd... He'll do all he can. And if not, he'll get something for him in trade rather than lose him for nothing to free agency.

[murraycraven]

Anything is possible. Pens are in serious problems after next season with letang demanding top dollar along with malkin and the other free agents they have at this seasons end and next.

--jm... hate to say this but this has been the thought process with the Pens for a long time. Somehow, some way, Shero finds a way to keep these guys around and still be under the cap. Unfortunate as it is...

[Jmdodgesrt4]

Yes true but there are a lot of free agents coming yep even after this year not including ignla, Murray , and morrow.

[Jmdodgesrt4]

They also had to trade staal not just because he wanted to play with his brother but they can't commit 5-6 mill cap hit for a third line center leaving then with what 5 mil of cap space at seasons end. Now they have seven. With Cooke , dupries, Kennedy , and the traded players they just got. Also other rfa players. Yes this year coming up they may be able to keep the team together minus traded for players but after next season with malkin and letang and then orpik I don't see how it's possible.

[murraycraven]

They also had to trade staal not just because he wanted to play with his brother but they can't commit 5-6 mill cap hit for a third line center leaving then with what 5 mil of cap space at seasons end. Now they have seven. With Cooke , dupries, Kennedy , and the traded players they just got. Also other rfa players. Yes this year coming up they may be able to keep the team together minus traded for players but after next season with malkin and letang and then orpik I don't see how it's possible.

-- you are right in the respect that something is going to have to give in terms of personnel. Believe me... I hope Shero runs that org into the ground and they become the sad state of hockey they one happened to be... So far Shero has been making good moves and as long as Cindy and Malkinstein are there - well, they will have a chance to win.