Flyer "Management" - Paying Not To Play

[murraycraven]

I expect them to buy out Bryz after next season for the reason you cite.

--Rad, I hope you are right but my gut feeling is the opposite. I think Bryz comes back next year...

[radoran]

--Rad, I hope you are right but my gut feeling is the opposite. I think Bryz comes back next year...

No, I agree with you. I think he's back next season and bought out afterwards. At that point, they will claim the the length and the term which they offered Bryzgalov is now too long for the team to be able to handle.

See, it's always the player's fault for signing the contract ownership offered them.

[LiAmTrAnSdEmOn]

That's the part that scares me. I hate having a gm who thinks his job is on the line who has some really good young players he could deal for some vets that could help more now.but who's careers will start to slide as soon as we get them. Woo, that was a long sentence!

I don't think he would panic like that deal away young talent in a poor attempt to save his job, he would have already done that at the trade deadline if that were the case. If he did, then I would have to personally write Mr. Snider a letter demanding the immediate firing of Holmgren.

[canoli]

Let's assume for the moment that the team buys out Briere and Bryzgalov.

Briere's buyout is $833,333 a year for the next four years in actual money.

Bryzgalov $1,642,847 a year for the next 14 years in actual money*.

Pronger is on for $7M, $4M and $575K for two years.

This effectively would mean that the Flyers are paying:

$9,476,190 in 13-14 (would be 15% of the $63.4M cap)

your point seems to be "what a mess Homer's made" - but is it fair to use Pronger's $$ to make that point?

[radoran]

your point seems to be "what a mess Homer's made" - but is it fair to use Pronger's $$ to make that point?

Well, there are a couple of salient points here:

1) Flyers' bankroll from Comcast allows them to make these sorts of offers, because if (when) they turn into mistakes, they can buy themselves out of it.

2) Homer decided to keep Pronger's contract even after finding out it was going to be 35+ and would count regardless. He rolled the dice - and crapped out.

3) We just lost half a freaking season because of the "financial problems" of the League and one of the poster children (and, let's face it, they're children) for that lockout is the same guy spending money like it grows on trees - including $20M over the next four years to pay players not to play for him.

Yes, the "paying not to pay" is a different issue between Bryz/Briere and Pronger. Nevertheless, there are other teams for whom making a $9M mistake next year would be a potentially serious financial hit for them.

For the Flyers, it means you take the 3rd worst team in the AHL and the 8th worst team in the NHL and say "heckuva job, Homer."

[canoli]

Instead of buying out the Bryz contract this year would it pay to wait a year and see if Mason puts enough pressure on him to do better? Would this also get him to try to play in Europe and opt out of his contract.

If the general sense of Bryzgalov is correct then "pressure" is the last thing this guy responds to, and his track record in the POs, when the pressure is at its highest is pretty awful. As far as "opt[ing] out" I don't think you can do that in the NHL for any reason. You can break your contract of course but we prob need a lawyer to tell us the legal ramifications of doing that.

[canoli]

Yes, the "paying not to pay" is a different issue between Bryz/Briere and Pronger.

It is. So your figure for next year is off by $7 million, which brings the "pay not to play" scenario down to a much more reasonable ~$2.5 mil. Unless you believe Homer should've known the future.

I'm only pointing this out because your case is stronger without fudging the numbers. You can't blame the GM when his player gets a stick in the eye but you have to question his sanity for advocating such a long, expensive contract to an over-35 player.

That and the "whoops, Bob has played 1 too many games now...he's subject to waivers" - these are the 2 real screw-ups on Homer's resumé imho. Maybe not the only 2 but by far the worst, not only for their long-term consequences but because both were so goddamn easy to avoid.

[radoran]

If the general sense of Bryzgalov is correct then "pressure" is the last thing this guy responds to, and his track record in the POs, when the pressure is at its highest is pretty awful. As far as "opt[ing] out" I don't think you can do that in the NHL for any reason. You can break your contract of course but we prob need a lawyer to tell us the legal ramifications of doing that.

16 of his 38 playoff games were for Anaheim:

11 games 6-4, 1.46, .944

5 games 3-1, 2.25, .922 (Cup won)

I'd say the track record of Phoenix in the playoffs is "pretty awful". One might also say that the Flyers as a whole didn't look particularly good against New Jersey last season (to wit: Flyers scored more than two goals twice in five games and were 1-0-1 in those games).

But, you can always just blame it on the goalie. Or the coach. Or the goalie. Or the coach.

When it's clearly the GM

[radoran]

It is. So your figure for next year is off by $7 million, which brings the "pay not to play" scenario down to a much more reasonable ~$2.5 mil. Unless you believe Homer should've known the future.

I'm only pointing this out because your case is stronger without fudging the numbers. You can't blame the GM when his player gets a stick in the eye but you have to question his sanity for advocating such a long, expensive contract to an over-35 player.

That and the "whoops, Bob has played 1 too many games now...he's subject to waivers" - these are the 2 real screw-ups on Homer's resumé imho. Maybe not the only 2 but by far the worst, not only for their long-term consequences but because both were so goddamn easy to avoid.

The fact is that they will be paying close to $9.5M to players who aren't playing next year (assuming the Bryz/Briere buyouts).

I can blame the GM for signing him to a long, expensive contract after being given the out to avoid it. I can blame the organization for offering these sorts of contracts again and again and then shutting down the league and demanding that they not be allowed to offer such contracts.

The Flyers made their bed with these sorts of cap-circumventing deals and only the fact that they have a corporation with $12 Billion in cash on hand gives them to out to avoid the consequences of their colossal screwups.

And then we blame the goalie. Or the coach. Or the goalie. Or the coach. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

[King Knut]

A few things:

-Ed Snider is a complicated man. Even though he was apparently in support of the cap, I have little doubt that he would GLADLY pay an extra $10 million if the league would let him. The Flyers are really only in this situation because of the cap. They have the money. They can spare it and still make a profit. They are an incredibly profitable enterprise. That's why we have to help the Wild, Panthers, Jets and Coyotes pay for their players in order to keep butts in seats in those towns. Paying extra to win is not something I think Ed Snider has a problem with.

-Isn't the insurance company technically paying for Pronger right now anyway? If so that really puts a damper on your numbers.

-Either way, it's also not Homer's fault Pronger got hurt. If Pronger's healthy, we're looking at a completely different team and a completely different two seasons... about which we'd probably be complaining a lot less. Not that I'm defending the actions of Paul Holmgren, I'm just saying, at most I can fault homer for not making visors mandatory on the team from now on in order to protect his investments in regards to Pronger.

-I don't think Homer cares about dealing 1s and 2nd round picks beause he goes ahead and trades for other team's (usually better) 1st and 2nd round picks.

-Think about 2007 and 2009. How do you think the team would have fared without Briere coming on board in 2007? Do the Flyers make the conference finals that season without him? What about Pronger? Do they make the Finals in 2010 without both Pronger and Briere? Extremely Doubtful.

-History suggests they might try, but recent history suggests maybe not. They didn't trade any youth at the deadline. I get the impression they're making a real commitment to growing these guys. As much as Simmer, Schenn, Luke and Coots have worked out, it had to sting Homer a little bit seeing them win a cup with Gagne (another cast off) in LA. At the very least it says that they alone didn't drag the tea down to be destined to fail and at the most it suggests that their failure was more Homer's failure by putting an inferior team around them. Something tells me he doesn't want to feel that again.

These aren't mistakes for the Flyers. I have no doubt that these decisions were made specifically because they have that big pile of money. Contingencies like the amnesties were put in place by owners specifically to cover their asses over issues like Bryzgalov.

Homer gets **** done and I like that. What I don't like is just what he's choosing to get done. Briere I will never complain about. I only support buying him out this summer if you need his money specifically to make another awesome deal work. Bryzgalov on the other hand... getting him wasn't a terrible idea, but at that cost? Good LORD! I sincerely hope the Flyers insist on a psych evaluation for every big money free agent they sign from here on in. And I say that fully acknowledging that I don't think Bryz has been as bad as everyone else here thinks.

He could be top 10 in the league in every category and he still wouldn't earn that kind of money. The days of paying that for any goalie not named Martin Brodeur are over, plain and simple.

Because history suggests that's what they do.

Edited April 24, 2013 by King Knut

[radoran]

A few things:

-Ed Snider is a complicated man. Even though he was apparently in support of the cap, I have little doubt that he would GLADLY pay an extra $10 million if the league would let him. The Flyers are really only in this situation because of the cap. They have the money. They can spare it and still make a profit. They are an incredibly profitable enterprise. That's why we have to help the Wild, Panthers, Jets and Coyotes pay for their players in order to keep butts in seats in those towns. Paying extra to win is not something I think Ed Snider has a problem with.

Ed Snider was at the forefront of the movement to impose the cap and was a vocal supporter of the lockout to lower the cap and prevent him from making the offers which had become the Flyers' hallmark.

-Isn't the insurance company technically paying for Pronger right now anyway? If so that really puts a damper on your numbers.

Not really. I addressed this earlier in the thread. I don't know if Pronger's deal was insured or for what terms. It's certainly not "free" to insure a $35 million contract and the rates you have to pay once you collect on such policies are certainly going to go up.

That's all moot - as is the cash issue for the Flyers - because Comcast has enough money that it doesn't matter. And that's the point

Other teams - the "no fans in Florida" teams, for example - don't all have $5M extra to throw around if they screw up badly.

-Either way, it's also not Homer's fault Pronger got hurt. If Pronger's healthy, we're looking at a completely different team and a completely different two seasons... about which we'd probably be complaining a lot less. Not that I'm defending the actions of Paul Holmgren, I'm just saying, at most I can fault homer for not making visors mandatory on the team from now on in order to protect his investments in regards to Pronger.

They had been to the Finals with Richards and Carter as well - their captain and his sidekick. They were the foundations of the franchise. They were the young forwards given the decade-long deals to be the bedrock and face of the franchise.

And they mortgaged all that to bet the farm on a 35-year-old defenseman.

A hard decision? No. Because if you screw up, you just throw another bale of money on the fire.

-I don't think Homer cares about dealing 1s and 2nd round picks beause he goes ahead and trades for other team's (usually better) 1st and 2nd round picks.

Which has been a wildly successful strategy so far, hasn't it? The three first rounders for Pronger, for example. Yes, they replaced them with the up-and-coming young talent they traded their established young talent for.

Again, this team is constantly bumping at the 50-contract limit and they have a farm team that was third worst in the AHL and their NHL franchise is 8th worst in the league.

-Think about 2007 and 2009. How do you think the team would have fared without Briere coming on board in 2007? Do the Flyers make the conference finals that season without him? What about Pronger? Do they make the Finals in 2010 without both Pronger and Briere? Extremely Doubtful.

Do you think a different, building strategy might have won a Cup by now?

Here's Homer's regular season finish and playoff result:

4th Atlantic - Conference Final

3rd Atlantic - First Round

3rd Atlantic - Cup Final

1st Atlantic - Second Round

3rd Atlantic - Second Round

4/5th Atlantic - DNQ

For a team that is among the top spenders in the league over that period, I really don't find that overwhelming.

Three seasons removed from the Cup Final, they don't even qualify for the playoffs.

Here are the Chicago Blackhawks over the same period

3rd Central - DNQ

2nd Central - Conference Final

1st Central - Stanley Cup

3rd Central - First Round

4th Central - First Round

1st Central, 1st overall - TBA

Which team is moving in the better direction?

To be clear, I think the Flyers have the opportunity to build a team like the Blackhawks and be long-term, especially with the young core they have.

If they don't blow it up again. You had a young core, added a savvy vet and made the Cup Final - then blew the whole thing up.

Meanwhile Chicago won the Cup and is poised to win the President's Cup this season.

-History suggests they might try, but recent history suggests maybe not. They didn't trade any youth at the deadline. I get the impression they're making a real commitment to growing these guys. As much as Simmer, Schenn, Luke and Coots have worked out, it had to sting Homer a little bit seeing them win a cup with Gagne (another cast off) in LA. At the very least it says that they alone didn't drag the tea down to be destined to fail and at the most it suggests that their failure was more Homer's failure by putting an inferior team around them. Something tells me he doesn't want to feel that again.

These aren't mistakes for the Flyers. I have no doubt that these decisions were made specifically because they have that big pile of money. Contingencies like the amnesties were put in place by owners specifically to cover their asses over issues like Bryzgalov.

They are mistakes for the Flyers. Just because they can buy their way out of it doesn't change that. To an extent Pronger is a mistake in hindsight, but it's hardly 20/20 hindsight as there were Many who questioned the deal - especially it's length - when it happened. Of course it is obvious circumvention of the cap. Blatant and in-your face. (Here's what happens if the Flyers buy out Pronger's final two years: they get a decrease on his cap hit for two years and then have to pay a $191K "penalty" for another two.)

[radoran]

Homer gets **** done and I like that. What I don't like is just what he's choosing to get done.

"Welcome to the party, pal" - John McClane

[brelic]

2) Homer decided to keep Pronger's contract even after finding out it was going to be 35+ and would count regardless. He rolled the dice - and crapped out.

Wait... we had the option of rolling back that contract???

[radoran]

Wait... we had the option of rolling back that contract???

When they submitted it, the League notified them that they would count it as a 35+ contract and allowed them the option of redoing the deal in those terms.

They chose not to.

[brelic]

When they submitted it, the League notified them that they would count it as a 35+ contract and allowed them the option of redoing the deal in those terms.

They chose not to.

Wow, I had no idea. That's even worse!

I suppose it was a poison pill? If they agree to redo it, are they admitting it was a cap circumvention and a contract that they never intended for Chris to honor completely?

[flyercanuck]

A few things:

-Ed Snider is a complicated man. Even though he was apparently in support of the cap, I have little doubt that he would GLADLY pay an extra $10 million if the league would let him. The Flyers are really only in this situation because of the cap. They have the money. They can spare it and still make a profit. They are an incredibly profitable enterprise. That's why we have to help the Wild, Panthers, Jets and Coyotes pay for their players in order to keep butts in seats in those towns. Paying extra to win is not something I think Ed Snider has a problem with.

-Isn't the insurance company technically paying for Pronger right now anyway? If so that really puts a damper on your numbers.

-Either way, it's also not Homer's fault Pronger got hurt. If Pronger's healthy, we're looking at a completely different team and a completely different two seasons... about which we'd probably be complaining a lot less. Not that I'm defending the actions of Paul Holmgren, I'm just saying, at most I can fault homer for not making visors mandatory on the team from now on in order to protect his investments in regards to Pronger.

-I don't think Homer cares about dealing 1s and 2nd round picks beause he goes ahead and trades for other team's (usually better) 1st and 2nd round picks.

-Think about 2007 and 2009. How do you think the team would have fared without Briere coming on board in 2007? Do the Flyers make the conference finals that season without him? What about Pronger? Do they make the Finals in 2010 without both Pronger and Briere? Extremely Doubtful.

-History suggests they might try, but recent history suggests maybe not. They didn't trade any youth at the deadline. I get the impression they're making a real commitment to growing these guys. As much as Simmer, Schenn, Luke and Coots have worked out, it had to sting Homer a little bit seeing them win a cup with Gagne (another cast off) in LA. At the very least it says that they alone didn't drag the tea down to be destined to fail and at the most it suggests that their failure was more Homer's failure by putting an inferior team around them. Something tells me he doesn't want to feel that again.

These aren't mistakes for the Flyers. I have no doubt that these decisions were made specifically because they have that big pile of money. Contingencies like the amnesties were put in place by owners specifically to cover their asses over issues like Bryzgalov.

Homer gets **** done and I like that. What I don't like is just what he's choosing to get done. Briere I will never complain about. I only support buying him out this summer if you need his money specifically to make another awesome deal work. Bryzgalov on the other hand... getting him wasn't a terrible idea, but at that cost? Good LORD! I sincerely hope the Flyers insist on a psych evaluation for every big money free agent they sign from here on in. And I say that fully acknowledging that I don't think Bryz has been as bad as everyone else here thinks.

He could be top 10 in the league in every category and he still wouldn't earn that kind of money. The days of paying that for any goalie not named Martin Brodeur are over, plain and simple.

First off, anytime you trade a handful of first round picks for a 35 year old defenceman who's played a physical game in the NHL since he was 18 you HAVE to see his body is eventually going to have issues. Pronger isn't Lidstrom. He's an in your face player. I'm surprised he lasted that long. And I said that when we traded for him.

Second, I don't think Homer cares about 1sts and 2nds either. That's why we have the worst farm system in the entire NHL.

And thirdly, without Briere and the constant "WIN NOW AT ALL COSTS" mentality, we may very well have Steven Stamkos playing for us right now. Or Drew Doughty. Or Alex Pietrangelo. Not sure about you, but I think those 3 guys future looks to be slightly brighter than the guy who is the #1 choice to buyout on a team that has Bryzaster in net. And conference finals don't mean squat, I want a cup.

[King Knut]

I never got the impression that Briere was a "win it all now!" acquisition.

When they acquired him, they'd just missed the playoffs for the first time since the dawn of the lindros era... and missing the playoffs isn't something that this town finds even remotely acceptable.

PLUS, they'd also traded away Forseberg (who let's face it, would never be able to compete consistently at this level again) leaving the team with naught but Gagne and a hand full of unproven young potential. Yes, we had Hartnell and I think Timmonen at that point, but their presence was also unproven. Signing Briere was a splash. It was a message to the fans and to the league. And I'm sorry, but even though Briere hasn't lead the league in scoring or even been close to a league leader, I have no problem with his acquisition. I wish they could keep him still.

Stamkos and those others would have been great because we'd still get to enjoy them now, but it was Pronger who made the difference and got us to within a game and a goal of the finals... Pronger and Briere (and IMHO maybe Lappy and his broken face).

If we'd acquired Stamkos or Doughty, would they have faired as well here? Would we have a Voracek and a Giroux? Maybe, maybe not. Would we still have Richards and Carter? If so, we'd be whining about their huge contracts still and complaining that they need to be amnestied.

Look, I don't disagree with what you're saying at all, but hindsight is 20/20 and let's face it, the Flyers just aren't a team with a history of taking rebuilding years. 2006-2007 wasn't meant to be a rebuilding year... but it ended up that way because of Forseberg's foot mostly. 2011-2012 was meant to be a rebuilding year in which they hoped to remain competitive and they fared far better than anyone expected at the onset of the season... the fact that they tanked in the 2nd round was hard to swallow, but let's face it... it made all too much sense.

This year is a weird year. Homer's failure to get Parise or Suter really screwed things up. The dumbest thing he did there was think that he could have gotten either one of them considering that they both ended up on the same team, it seems obvious that they were using Homer and others to drive up the price that team gave them. Foolish on his part. He'd have been far better suited to commit to Jagr and Carle. Not doing so was even more foolish. The Weber thing was just grabbing at straws because he knew he'd been bested. The most foolish thing about that is that now He won't ever be able to get Weber until he's too old to matter.

Like I said, I don't disagree with your assessments, I just see the logic of what he was trying to do when he was trying to do it. I think Homer's savvy at getting things done and a decent GM in that respect, I just think that he makes some poor decisions regarding what he tries to do... and as we've all said before, there's a damn good chance that comes from pressure on high in the form of Snyder deciding, "We need Bryzgalov. Get it done. Get rid of those whiney party boys and get me Bryzgalov!!!"

Homer got rid of the party boys and it worked out well for all teams involved... well maybe not the Blue Jackets... but that was their own damn fault. The Bryzgalov thing... I don't know if it was scouts failing miserably, homer not listening to the scouts, or Snyder not giving a crap about what the scouts were saying or just gross miscommunication between all three. Bryzgalov is a decent 3-4 million dollar goalie who can play a boat load of games. Most here seem to disagree with me on that, but the fact that his big ass deal was a monster mistake? There can be no doubts about that.

nd thirdly, without Briere and the constant "WIN NOW AT ALL COSTS" mentality,

[King Knut]

Don't you think that might have had something to do with Pronger and his Agent?

When they submitted it, the League notified them that they would count it as a 35+ contract and allowed them the option of redoing the deal in those terms.

They chose not to.

[radoran]

Don't you think that might have had something to do with Pronger and his Agent?

Well, sure. But the Flyers make the offer and the Flyers decided to keep the offer they had.

Pronger and his Agent can't force the Flyers to make an offer.

The Flyers were hoping that the only real "hits" they would take would be in the last two years of the contract. It was essentially a $6.6M a year deal for five years with a cap hit of $4.9M. Before it was an over-35, they would have taken cap hits of $4.3M, $4.3M, $191K, $191K if they bought him out. Instead they rolled the dice that the extra $600K in cap hits the final two years of the deal wouldn't be that big a deal.

They gambled. And lost.

[King Knut]

That's kind of a crazy comparison if your point is who rebuilt better. I mean the first year of the comparison says it all. The Flyers went to the conference final and the hawks did not qualify. At that moment in 2008 with the emergency of Richards and Carter and Timmo and Coburn and Briere in those playoffs, why would the team have second guessed their plan? They made it to the conference finals. And the next season who knows what they would have done had they not played the eventual cup winners in the first round (keep in mind from that year until last year, the Flyers only lost in the playoffs to the eventual cup winner... and the two years on either side of that stretch, they lost to the team in the east who went to the finals). That makes it hard for me to say they weren't competitive even if they lost in the 1st or 2nd round.

So essentially, until this year I'd kinda say it was a toss up, wouldn't you? I mean they beat us in the final and really, if they don't win the Kane Draft lottery over the flyers, they're not anywhere near contention for that cup.

Seriously... take Kane from them, give him to us. Then think about that same stretch of seasons. Sharp not withstanding (that's on Clarke) who do you think wins that cup? Do we make it past the second round past Boston or Jersey? Do they even make it to the finals without Kane? Do they do any better than first round exist without Kane?

I think Homer and the Flyers are rebuilding and I too truly hope they're dedicated to it. I see a great many opportunities this off season for them to do exactly what you're saying. That said, if they send a forward or two away for a D man or a goalie, I will not complain simply because let's face it... the Flyers have a glut of talented young potential at forward (and C in particular). I don't know how I feel about the wisdom of drafting the "best player" and not targeting your needs. There's a logic to it and in fantasy leagues it works well... but the main wisdom of it hinges on being willing to trade that "best player" in order to fill your needs later on.

Even though the Flyers can't score consistently to save their lives, I think we all agree that the Defense and the Goaltending is the foremost issue that needs to be addressed. I think it can be done handily without selling the farm (not the farm system which I'm repeatedly told sucks tremendously) and without committing billions in bad contracts to aging stars.

I'm not saying the Pronger and Briere deals were definitely the best things and definitely should have happened, I'm just saying I get it on both of them and that maybe neither one is quite as bad as anyone is saying.

Either way, I think Weber might have been worth one last attempt at a deal like that, but I can't see any other player in the league (maybe Stamkos and even then I'm not sure) who deserves a deal that will potentially screw his team out of contention.

Which team is moving in the better direction?

[FD19372]

The easiest (and I think best) answer is to give every player incentive based contracts (for ex. if a player who is a big time goal scorer gets 40 goals he gets a 3 or 4 million dollar bonus in his contract, if his base salary is 2 million). Too many of these guys (see Briere and Bryzgalov, Carter when he was here and half the league for that matter) have all of their money locked into GUARANTEES. If the dumb ownerships of the teams (particularly Philly) get together and say "No more guaranteed contracts." "We don't care how great you are, or think you are.", then maybe the players will bust their a*ses for 100 games a season when they get here. It's called earning your pay. What an original and new concept,lol! If they want to improve as an organization, stop Club Med, at least to the extent of where it appears to be now.

Edited April 25, 2013 by FD19372

[King Knut]

...And as it stands now, the last years of his contract won't be any cap hit at all because he's never playing again and he'll stay LTIR until his contract is up at which point he'll retire.

The real problem with the Pronger deal is the prospects and draft picks Homer gave up. We could complain about that if we like but that's total Hindsight is 20/20 complaining... ultimately the Pronger situation bothers me because it's a shame the career of a guy like that has to end like this.

Pronger says he'd like to come back, but he isn't. We know he isn't. He probably knows he isn't too. It's sad.

Instead they rolled the dice that the extra $600K in cap hits the final two years of the deal wouldn't be that big a deal.

[radoran]

The easiest (and I think best) answer is to give every player incentive based contracts (for ex. if a player who is a big time goal scorer gets 40 goals he gets a 3 or 4 million dollar bonus in his contract, if his base salary is 2 million). Too many of these guys (see Briere and Bryzgalov, Carter when he was here and half the league for that matter) have all of their money locked into GUARANTEES. If the dumb ownerships of the teams (particularly Philly) get together and say "No more guaranteed contracts." "We don't care how great you are, or think you are.", then maybe the players will bust their a*ses for 100 games a season when they get here. It's called earning your pay. What an original and new concept,lol! If they want to improve as an organization, stop Club Med, at least to the extent of where it appears to be now.

The guaranteed contracts are a part of the CBA and were not removed in the last negotiation. They aren't going anywhere. There is literally nothing that can be done about that beyond CBA armageddon as the players made quite clear they were not going to accept non-guaranteed contracts.

Better incentives are an interesting idea. But if you have a team that might swoop in with a contract offer for your player that isn't incentive based, which do you think the player is going to sign?

And the owners can't all "agree" not to do that - that's collusion and it's illegal.

[radoran]

...And as it stands now, the last years of his contract won't be any cap hit at all because he's never playing again and he'll stay LTIR until his contract is up at which point he'll retire.

He still counts against the cap - just on LTIR (which only applies if you are bumping against the cap ceiling).

And he still counts in the off-season, in terms of space available to sign FAs. That was an issue just last year with the Carle/Jagr situation and Homer's hands being tied by being too close to the ceiling to make another offer while chasing two players (Suter/Praise) who said they weren't coming here.

[B21]

He still counts against the cap - just on LTIR (which only applies if you are bumping against the cap ceiling).

And he still counts in the off-season, in terms of space available to sign FAs. That was an issue just last year with the Carle/Jagr situation and Homer's hands being tied by being too close to the ceiling to make another offer while chasing two players (Suter/Praise) who said they weren't coming here.

I don't understand why the Flyers are playing the LTIR game with Pronger. The cap "relief" doesn't come until the regular season begins at which point there is really no one left to sign.

I read the SI article. It's pretty clear he is not coming back.

So what am I missing? Something about the cap hit if he retires versus LTIR?