Richie and Carts deals

[JackStraw]

Bad season for Coots, but a GREAT center he will be.

"Ahh... father. Powerful Jedi was he. Powerful Jedi."

[ctid]

and apparently this is a solid way of thinking about the draft. every one of these players is a crap shoot to make it in the nhl. you could draft a D man in the 250th overall and he'll end up being... well Kimmo Timonen.

so... there's really no telling.. going for the best player available regardless of position seems to be a solid way to approach it.

True. Drafting the best available player is definitely a solid approach and surely one should be adopting. However, let's take coots' draft year as an example (just for fun ) when you are stepping up to the podium with a very high pick and you've got a pick between two players, a center and a d-man, who for all intent and purposes are pretty similar at the time in terms of potential, size, etc, basically the gap between them isn't too far off (at the time of the draft) then in my book you draft after need and not best position available...now, if you've considered your need and realise you are good both on D and center then you draft the D-man.

What I'm saying is: when the "gap" between the players in question isn't big you draft by need. When there is a bigger gap, then you obviously draft best player available. If you are stacked at forward for now and the forseable future, and severely lacking in the D department, and it's your turn to draft and the two players to choose from are a Center with elite like potential versus a D-man who shows very promising signs but is clearly a project, then you obviously draft the center. So BPA versus need comes down to the gap between the players available. You don't just choose one method and go with it.

[flyercanuck]

@ctid

I agree with you entirely.

I think the thing that happened in that draft was Couturier was thought to be around a 2-3 pick. he'd put up the best ppg in all junior. He was also a great defensive forward. And big. That's a pretty good combo. When he fell to 8th, I think Holmgren might have been caught off guard that a guy they may have had say #2 was still available at #8. Plus maybe he had visions of Shea Weber or something else in his mind, who knows.

[ctid]

true. I agree, Homer and brass might have thought the gap was a bit bigger than we thought. And to be honest, I can see why they thought that by coots dropping as much as he did. But, alarm bells should have starting ringing in homer's ears when he saw that the teams ahead of them ALL passed on couts, that combined with his skating issues (which scouts were more than aware of at the time of his draft) should have been enough to draft Hamilton.

anyways, what's done is done. I like coots and believe he will become VERY good. But, hands down, I prefer Hamilton.

[flyercanuck]

@ctid

Mark Scheifele was picked before Couturier. I see him play all the time here. If he doesn't start putting in a better effort he's never going to make it. The guy has great skill, can skate, has a good shot. He justs takes way too many shifts off. And this is in junior. Couturier hit a bump this year, but is starting to look fine again. He's got the 3rd most points of anyone in his draft class. He's looked great at times and bad at times.

And again, Hamilton wouldn't look near as good as he does on our D. And #14 would lok much better on a great team.

[jammer2]

@flyercanuck "Mark Scheifele was picked before Couturier. I see him play all the time here. If he doesn't start putting in a better effort he's never going to make it. The guy has great skill, can skate, has a good shot. He justs takes way too many shifts off"

Really? This is the first I've heard of this, thought he was a high character guy with a nice work ethic.

[flyercanuck]

@jammer2

Not a huge fan. He's weak on his skates (that's his worst fault) It's to the point where I'm not sure if he's a habitual diver or easy to knock down. He takes a lot of shifts off. He's got good NHL talent and should stand out every shift. When he puts his mind to it he stands out like Taylor Hall when he was with you guys. But a lot of the time he's just out for a skate. Glad we have him but he's frustrating.

[Vanflyer]

That is effectively what LA did.

Quick and Brown won that cup.

[EDI-Flyer]

Quick and Brown won that cup.

I didn't say that Richards and Carter won them the cup...

The point I was making was that was that LA traded 3 young prospects for them and happened to win a cup and that if you could guarantee that we would win a cup I would happily trade several young "untouchable" stars. I did not say that the cup win was necessarily a consequence of the trade.

[jammer2]

@EDI-Flyer It was a masterful job by Lombardi on "knowing when to strike". Lot of variables there like, how close is my team, what final pices do we need? He did an amzaing job at studying his roster and knowing what holes to fill, knowing which kids to unload. Kudos to him!

[Vanflyer]

The point I was making was that was that LA traded 3 young prospects for them and happened to win a cup and that if you could guarantee that we would win a cup I would happily trade several young "untouchable" stars. I did not say that the cup win was necessarily a consequence of the trade.

No problem. The cup win was most definitely not a result of the trades.

That said, Carter and Richards are carrying the team this year at the forward spot. Quick is looking ordinary and Bernier is looking like his promise.

Meanwhile, Johnson is still doing very well in Columbus. I would still take Simmonds, Schenn and Cousins for Richards. I would also do Voracek / Couturier for Carter.

Lombardie moved the right peaces in place. But he already had very good D and G. They just needed some umpfh up front. Remember, most of last year, they (LA) could not score and their bacon was saved by Quick and D.

cheers

[Vanflyer]

@EDI-Flyer It was a masterful job by Lombardi on "knowing when to strike". Lot of variables there like, how close is my team, what final pices do we need? He did an amzaing job at studying his roster and knowing what holes to fill, knowing which kids to unload. Kudos to him!

Hi Jammer- Truthfully, I think that team got hot at the right time. Quick carried them for the season (they could barley score 2 goals a game). Richards did okay in his role. Carter did not do that much. What those two players did was chew up some ice minutes. You put Quick in the pipes for Philly last year and add a brown and doughty, Philly gets the cup.

[Vanflyer]

The point I was making was that was that LA traded 3 young prospects for them and happened to win a cup and that if you could guarantee that we would win a cup I would happily trade several young "untouchable" stars. I did not say that the cup win was necessarily a consequence of the trade.

I am not sure that I would call Schenn and Simmonds prospects. Your point is well taken though. I wish we could have traded Richards for Bernier and Simmonds. I like Schenn, but Bernier and Simmonds would have been the better deal. The whole Bryz trade / signing was just horrible. Have you watched Bobs play in Columbus?? 6th in the league in GAA and 2nd in the league in Sv pctg.

[EDI-Flyer]

Have you watched Bobs play in Columbus?? 6th in the league in GAA and 2nd in the league in Sv pctg.

And a serious a candidate for the Vezina according to nhl.com...

Yes, I have watched it closely and feel the pain every time I do. He pitched another S/O last night against San Jose.

That said do I feel he would have enjoyed the same success for the Flyers? Not with our current attack first mentality and porous defence. I wish we had kept him and not signed Bryzaster. IF we had a strong defensive system then I think we would start to make our goalies look better, but that certainly is not the case with Lavi IMO.

How refreshing it was last night to see Mason actually stop a player on a breakaway, I can't remember the last time I saw Bryz do that...

[Clarke2Leach]

Hi Jammer- Truthfully, I think that team got hot at the right time. Quick carried them for the season (they could barley score 2 goals a game). Richards did okay in his role. Carter did not do that much. What those two players did was chew up some ice minutes. You put Quick in the pipes for Philly last year and add a brown and doughty, Philly gets the cup.

If I'm not mistaken, Carter tied for the league lead in playoff goals. I've always said he's better than what people give him credit for. He's a Jean Beliveau type and that's not everyone's cup of tea.

[Vanflyer]

That said do I feel he would have enjoyed the same success for the Flyers? Not with our current attack first mentality and porous defence. I wish we had kept him and not signed Bryzaster.

Good point. Go look at Pelle Lindbergs states in his first couple of years and look at the d in front of him. I am a Bobs fan and Snider crapped the bed in my opinion. That move was a spiral of bad moves (including Carle).

[EDI-Flyer]

I am not sure that I would call Schenn and Simmonds prospects

Okay, when Simmonds was traded he was an established player, albeit one with limited success (93 points in 240 games with the Kings, 74 in 118 with the Flyers since), Brayden Schenn most certainly was not. As I recall the tag "best player not in the NHL" was thrown around quite a bit...

Edited April 10, 2013 by EDI-Flyer

[Vanflyer]

If I'm not mistaken, Carter tied for the league lead in playoff goals.

Yeah, with Giroux and Briere in half the games.

[EDI-Flyer]

Good point. Go look at Pelle Lindbergs states in his first couple of years and look at the d in front of him. I am a Bobs fan and Snider crapped the bed in my opinion. That move was a spiral of bad moves (including Carle).

Exactly, a good D system will make any goalie look better. For reference, see Bryzgalov, I and Smith M playing in Phoenix for Dave Tippett.

[Vanflyer]

As I recall the tag "best player not in the NHL" was thrown around quite a bit...

I agree with both points. But please show me a headline that says "Flyers trade their captain for three prospects". That was my point. I like Schenn allot and I think he is allot like Richards (better in the o-zone and not as good in the d-zone). Simmonds and Cousins are the sleepers in the trade and simmonds is a stud now. Cousins, we will see.

Remove Cousins from the equation and you have Richards for Schenn / Simmonds. I would do that every day of the week (though as I stated on another thread, I would do Bernier / Simmonds for Richards).

[Vanflyer]

I and Smith M playing in Phoenix for Dave Tippett.

so phoenix has a better system?? Tippett is a better coach?? Phoenix has a better goalie or defense??

I am not disagreeing, but the difference is 15 goals over 40 games between the two teams.

[EDI-Flyer]

Simmonds and Cousins are the sleepers in the trade and simmonds is a stud now. Cousins, we will see.

I am pretty sure Cousins was drafted in the 3rd round with a pick we got from CBJ... We got a 2nd round pick plus Simmer and Schenn for Richie, and I am pretty sure Homer gave that pick away to someone else.

[EDI-Flyer]

so phoenix has a better system?? Tippett is a better coach?? Phoenix has a better goalie or defense??

I am not disagreeing, but the difference is 15 goals over 40 games between the two teams.

I grant you that the goal difference is not huge but Bryz looked outstanding in Phoenix and had good stats to back it up, hence why we signed him. Mike Smith looked like crap in Tampa and yet looks like a different goalie in Phoenix. Whether that is down to the coach, his system or the water in Phoenix I don't know for sure but when was the last time the Flyers took an average goalie and made him look better?

[King Knut]

That irked me and then trading Bob made it that much more stupid.

Bob wasn't ready to start, but he was certainly worth more than a trade for zilch.

The problem there was cap management... that and for some UNGODLY REASON Homer let Lavvy play Bob in the Sabres series that year thus handcuffing Homer from designating Bob to the Phantoms and saving us his cap hit the following season.

Idiocy.

Because we already had Bob, and he was laser-focused on Bryzgalov.

[caluso]

@jammer2

I think if you put Couturier on a great team and Hamilton on a bad one you'd be seeing two entirely different development curves. Couturier is going to be a heck of a player. So is Hamilton. Obviously we could've used the help on D a lot more than up front

Like Jammer said, Hamilton is already a great player. While it's true that his stats might not be as impressive on the Flyers because of the team - D concept, he would unquestionably be on the top pairing.

Meanwhile, you say the "Couturier is going to be a heck of a player." I am not so sure. The NHL is a physical and fast league - two traits that Couturier doesn't possess. Admittedly, Couturier had an excellent series against Malkin but let's not forget how dysfunctional the Pens were at the time. Meanwhile, look at Couturier's much larger body of work this year: Lackadaisical, soft and slow.

I am not sold on Couturier; I am sold on Hamilton.