Shero vs Holmgren

[caluso]

a big difference between us and the pens - crosby aside - is the GM.

if the flyers were in the hunt for Iggy what would Gomer have offered up? 3 firsts, Giroux, Timo and a zamboni driver.

Shero acquired morrow, murphy and iggy and gave up very little; in fact, he kept his top prospects. had Gomer been their GM, crosby would be gone along with malkin.

as long as they have shero and we have gomer, we will always be chasing the pens. it's that simple.

[Jmdodgesrt4]

The pens future isn't so bright bud.

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

The Flyers future isn't so bright bud.

Fixed it for you.

In case you haven't been paying attention, the Pens are poised to win the cup again this year. Their GM added 3 of the top players available in the last week and he may not be done yet. They still have $4.4MM in cap space.

The Flyers GM has done nothing but handicap the team by over paying players and giving them NMC/NTC to everyone. And has eliminated any semblance of cap space.

[Jmdodgesrt4]

The flyers try winning ever year. Rarely do they get lottery picks. The pens tanked for a few years and gathered their lottery picks. However , they are out of time now with the current roster. Letang and malkin are ufa after next season. With cap going down and expiring contracts after this year they need to trade away pieces or let them walk.

[Skatebyu66]

The flyers try winning ever year. Rarely do they get lottery picks. The pens tanked for a few years and gathered their lottery picks. However , they are out of time now with the current roster. Letang and malkin are ufa after next season. With cap going down and expiring contracts after this year they need to trade away pieces or let them walk.

Is that the story you are still preaching..the pens "tanked"....Does this story have a shelf life or will this be the ONLY thing that matters? THANK GOD we have Shero as he is smart enough to make moves that will not cripple his team in the near future. So keep preaching about the tanking Pens. It's old news. Can't keep living in the past or you will def not have a future. Pens are looking smart right now but need to play every shift like it is their last or the trades will not matter at all.

[Jmdodgesrt4]

Ok. They didn't tank but just plain old sucked for years with no attendance and was going to have to relocate. Can't remember the last time the flyers were in that position.

[doom88]

Tanking should have the same lifespan of the Santa garbage. At least.

[brelic]

Not to take anything away from Shero, because they were smart moves. But in both cases (Morrow and Iginla), the players would only waive to come to Pittsburgh. That takes away *considerable* leverage from the other team. Calgary preferred the deal from Boston, but Iginla would only waive for the Pens so they had no choice. Either take that deal or lose Iginla for nothing come July 1.

The other misnomer is that Homer is the only one handing out NMCs/NTCs. I absolutely hate that practice. And Homer has given out his share, effectively handcuffing us. But other teams do the same thing.

Nine players on the Flyers have an NMC/NTC (including Pronger). Eleven players on the Penguins have one, eight players on the Hawks, nine players on the Bruins, etc. The real danger is when a player has both an NMC and a long-term contract (e.g. 6 years or more). They are absolutely detrimental to the proper functioning of the hockey market... but that's a different discussion, I guess.

[murraycraven]

As much as I hate the Pens and wish that Crosby were hit by a bus (along w/ the rest of the team) I think the "tanking" argument needs to be shelved. Look, I hate that Team, but at least give credit where it is do... the Pens are simply heads above the Flyers in every aspect of the Organization these days. The Flyers failures to develop defensemen and goalies continue to haunt the team. The GM trades picks like most people change underwear - not to mention that we hand out NMC/NTC like it is free candy.

This Team has been mismanaged for years. As much as I love that we are always in contention (for the most part) our philosophy of building Teams simply has not worked. Homer gambled on bringing in Suter and Parise last year and he was wrong. He then banked on landing Weber and was wrong again. Nothing wrong with failing but where was the backup plan? Rusty and Foster? Seriously?

This defense is literally an AHL defense - they suck. The sucked from the beginning of the season. Our offense was built around hope that our young kids would step up and they did not. This Team was never built to be a playoff Team this season and the Org from top to bottom should be more embarrassed than I am to be a fan of this group.

The Pens have made a lot of great moves that put the Team in contention every year. They are the best Team in the East and go out and land Iginla and still have $$$ to work with... the Pens might be hated but they are operating exactly how I wish Homer and Eddie would operate. They simply are a very good Team with a great GM... There fans on the other hand are knowledge-less twits for the most part but to say they "tanked" several years ago discredits what they are doing as an Org in the recent past, now, and the future.

Just giving credit where it is do...

Edited March 29, 2013 by murraycraven

[mojo1917]

@murraycraven

well you've gone farther than I would but you are right, the Pens are run very well and the Flyers are struggling.

I think Shero has been both lucky and good, he's had some opportunities to pick great players which he did so there's the luck, but he has managed to keep them , build around them and bring in the right veterans to help aid in their development, and make the team into one of the stronger teams in the east. He's done a nice job building the team around Crosby Malkin and Fluery, he's been shrewd with his picks and dealings with other gms. He's one of the top guys running a team.

we will see how great he is if he can keep this team together in the next few years, there are some bills coming due and though the salary is pro rated for this year i think he'll have a difficult time keeping Letang , Malkin, Iginla , and Morrow on the team , so they need to win and win now. if they do good for them but i see them having the same problem the Hawks had after their win and that would/will suck, so for me if he can keep them good while shedding talent because of that will be the measure of his greatness.

[flyercanuck]

@murraycraven

I said this in the Shero vs Holland thread. Give Holmgren Crosby AND Malkin AND another 3 top 5 picks. Take the same away from Shero. (so he has no Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, Sutter, Kunitz ) Who's the better gm? I'm not saying Holmgren is a good gm, cause he's not. But Shero has had a lot of "gifts" that no ther gm gets. You can add Morrow and Iginla to that list too.

[B21]

@brelic

<< Not to take anything away from Shero, because they were smart moves. But in both cases (Morrow and Iginla), the players would only waive to come to Pittsburgh. That takes away *considerable* leverage from the other team. Calgary preferred the deal from Boston, but Iginla would only waive for the Pens so they had no choice. Either take that deal or lose Iginla for nothing come July 1. >>

Fair...but that didn't stop Shero from getting Sutter, Dumoulin and the 8th overall for Staal when everyone knew Staal wanted to play with his brother in Carolina. With the shoe on the other foot, Ray came through. Feaster didn't. You guys can decide how Holgren would have done.

[B21]

Tanking should have the same lifespan of the Santa garbage. At least.

Santa f'd me when I was 8. Boos deserved. I wanted Bobofet. He got me another friggin' Storm Trooper. Bitter ever since.

[flyercanuck]

@B21

The fact he HAD Staal (along with Malkin, Crosby etc) has made his job easy. Getting Sutter + for Staal is fine. It doesn't look so great if Sutter is your #1 center though.

[brelic]

@brelic

<< Not to take anything away from Shero, because they were smart moves. But in both cases (Morrow and Iginla), the players would only waive to come to Pittsburgh. That takes away *considerable* leverage from the other team. Calgary preferred the deal from Boston, but Iginla would only waive for the Pens so they had no choice. Either take that deal or lose Iginla for nothing come July 1. >>

Fair...but that didn't stop Shero from getting Sutter, Dumoulin and the 8th overall for Staal when everyone knew Staal wanted to play with his brother in Carolina. With the shoe on the other foot, Ray came through. Feaster didn't. You guys can decide how Holgren would have done.

In Holmgren's case, he did very well dealing Richards and Carter. I think he got more in return for them than most GMs would have. He got three top 8 draft picks (5, 7, 8), and a late 2nd rounder who is playing like a first rounder.

For Staal, yeah, I agree that he got a very nice return. I don't think Staal is worth that much, so he did well.

I think the big difference between Holmgren and Shero (and there are many!) is that Holmgren often deals just for the sake of dealing. And that has a more deleterious effect on chemistry and organizational stability.

[B21]

As much as I hate the Pens and wish that Crosby were hit by a bus (along w/ the rest of the team) I think the "tanking" argument needs to be shelved. Look, I hate that Team, but at least give credit where it is do... the Pens are simply heads above the Flyers in every aspect of the Organization these days. The Flyers failures to develop defensemen and goalies continue to haunt the team. The GM trades picks like most people change underwear - not to mention that we hand out NMC/NTC like it is free candy.

This Team has been mismanaged for years. As much as I love that we are always in contention (for the most part) our philosophy of building Teams simply has not worked. Homer gambled on bringing in Suter and Parise last year and he was wrong. He then banked on landing Weber and was wrong again. Nothing wrong with failing but where was the backup plan? Rusty and Foster? Seriously?

This defense is literally an AHL defense - they suck. The sucked from the beginning of the season. Our offense was built around hope that our young kids would step up and they did not. This Team was never built to be a playoff Team this season and the Org from top to bottom should be more embarrassed than I am to be a fan of this group.

The Pens have made a lot of great moves that put the Team in contention every year. They are the best Team in the East and go out and land Iginla and still have $$$ to work with... the Pens might be hated but they are operating exactly how I wish Homer and Eddie would operate. They simply are a very good Team with a great GM... There fans on the other hand are knowledge-less twits for the most part but to say they "tanked" several years ago discredits what they are doing as an Org in the recent past, now, and the future.

Just giving credit where it is do...

As an aside, we fully understand how fotunate we were to have won the Crosby lottery and how even more fortunate we were that the Caps took OV.

Edited March 29, 2013 by B21

[B21]

@murraycraven

I said this in the Shero vs Holland thread. Give Holmgren Crosby AND Malkin AND another 3 top 5 picks. Take the same away from Shero. (so he has no Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, Sutter, Kunitz ) Who's the better gm? I'm not saying Holmgren is a good gm, cause he's not. But Shero has had a lot of "gifts" that no ther gm gets. You can add Morrow and Iginla to that list too.

And as I asked in the same thread...

Tell me who Shero - a guy who clearly will go out and get what is needed to contend via trade or F/A signing - gets to replace those guys. Let's not make it seem like we take $30,000,000 worth of players of the roster and replace them with a bag of pucks.

[B21]

@B21

The fact he HAD Staal (along with Malkin, Crosby etc) has made his job easy. Getting Sutter + for Staal is fine. It doesn't look so great if Sutter is your #1 center though.

Wrong angle. It's not about having Staal. It's about who he was able to get for him dealing from an obvious point of weakness. Look how Feaster did in basically the same spot.

[B21]

In Holmgren's case, he did very well dealing Richards and Carter. I think he got more in return for them than most GMs would have. He got three top 8 draft picks (5, 7, 8), and a late 2nd rounder who is playing like a first rounder.

For Staal, yeah, I agree that he got a very nice return. I don't think Staal is worth that much, so he did well.

I think the big difference between Holmgren and Shero (and there are many!) is that Holmgren often deals just for the sake of dealing. And that has a more deleterious effect on chemistry and organizational stability.

I think he got fair value for them (Richards and Carter) but those trades didn't involve one team having more leverage. If Holmgren didn't like what he was getting back, he just doesn't make the deal. Shero really didn't have that luxury in the Staal trade.

[flyercanuck]

@B21

They'd have whoever they can draft in the 20-30 range like the Flyers do every year.For example, instead of Malkin you could have your choice of Kris Chucko, Mark Fistric or Andy Rogers. Instead of Crosby you could have Matt Pelech or Vladimir Mihalik. Then you could pick over FAs This year you could have Corey Perry. Oh no he's resigned. Getzlaf then. Oh no he's resigned. Semin? Resigned. Ok how about Steven Weiss and Derek Roy. How many goals is Neal ripping in with Derek Roy as his center. Get my point?

[doom88]

Santa f'd me when I was 8. Boos deserved. I wanted Bobofet. He got me another friggin' Storm Trooper. Bitter ever since.

Well yeah, fett is way better!

[brelic]

I think maybe a better comparison is between Shero and the Oilers. The Flyers and the Pens are really hard to compare because of their past records and organizational mentality (and obvious deep pockets in Philly).

So, the Oilers have had the same "luck" with draft picks over the years, and should have three or four franchise cornerstones. But what have they built around them??? Nothing. Granted, I wouldn't move to Edmonton even if my salary were doubled, so there's that.

Take away the "luck" the Pens have had with not one, not two, not three, but four franchise cornerstones... ok, and what next? You gotta put a team around them. So in that regard, Shero has done well. And Edmonton continues to be a cellar dweller. I would hate to be an Edmonton fan. When was the last time they were relevant?? I would say 1987.

[murraycraven]

@murraycraven

I said this in the Shero vs Holland thread. Give Holmgren Crosby AND Malkin AND another 3 top 5 picks. Take the same away from Shero. (so he has no Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, Sutter, Kunitz ) Who's the better gm? I'm not saying Holmgren is a good gm, cause he's not. But Shero has had a lot of "gifts" that no ther gm gets. You can add Morrow and Iginla to that list too.

I agree to an extent... but years ago everyone was saying that Pitt is going to have to get rid of Malkin b.c. no way they can afford to keep both he and Crosby. All the while Shero has handled the salary cap remarkably well while we continue to be at the cap w/ a bunch of scrubs playing defense. He did land all of those picks b/c they sucked and were basically a dead franchise but he has done well at managing the cap since then - no one can argue that.

Believe me... I hate the Pens but how long are we going to say they were handed the picks? Yeah they were but they have done pretty darn well since then at managing the club.

[B21]

@B21

They'd have whoever they can draft in the 20-30 range like the Flyers do every year.For example, instead of Malkin you could have your choice of Kris Chucko, Mark Fistric or Andy Rogers. Instead of Crosby you could have Matt Pelech or Vladimir Mihalik. Then you could pick over FAs This year you could have Corey Perry. Oh no he's resigned. Getzlaf then. Oh no he's resigned. Semin? Resigned. Ok how about Steven Weiss and Derek Roy. How many goals is Neal ripping in with Derek Roy as his center. Get my point?

Or they could have Giroux and Tuuka Rask. Maybe they can lure Stamkos from TB. Maybe they can offer Hossa a longer deal with a bigger annual salary. Maybe they fleece the Leafs. Maybe they get Suter and Parise. Lots of "ifs" in that scenario. Based on Shero's track record, I'm more than comfortable with saying they would still be Cup contenders each year which is all one can ask.

I know what they wouldn't have done. They wouldn't not know the salary cap rules and sign a 35 year old defenseman to a contract that has a guaranteed $4+ million hit until he's 57. They wouldn't give another aging d-man a $6,000,000 deal for next season just to be nice. They certainly wouldn't make a 9+ year committment to anything less than a generational talent.

[B21]

I think maybe a better comparison is between Shero and the Oilers. The Flyers and the Pens are really hard to compare because of their past records and organizational mentality (and obvious deep pockets in Philly).

So, the Oilers have had the same "luck" with draft picks over the years, and should have three or four franchise cornerstones. But what have they built around them??? Nothing. Granted, I wouldn't move to Edmonton even if my salary were doubled, so there's that.

Take away the "luck" the Pens have had with not one, not two, not three, but four franchise cornerstones... ok, and what next? You gotta put a team around them. So in that regard, Shero has done well. And Edmonton continues to be a cellar dweller. I would hate to be an Edmonton fan. When was the last time they were relevant?? I would say 1987.

That's probably the closest comparison you can make (Edmonton v. Pittsburgh). That said, all due respect to Hall, Nugent-Hopkins and Yakupov, they aren't the generational talents that Crosby and Malkin are.

It wasn't getting so many top 5 picks that helped the Pens. It was the talent that was out there when they did have them.