Travis Konecny extended 8 years @ 8.75 million / year

[flyercanuck]

58 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

the result is the same as sucking while getting rid of everyone good at hockey right?

 

The team still, you know, sucked; but not the right way ?

 

That's weird.

 

 

Not really, sucking while "going for it" gets you a middle of the pack draft pick, which very likely means you aren't getting high end talent. Yes, some teams find it later in the draft. The Flyers haven't exactly been hitting home runs in this dept over the last couple decades.

 

I've gone over, enough times, the teams that have won cups and the `1st and 2nd overall picks they ALL seem to have. Of course those picks have to be high end talent, and not JVR. Smart GMs have learned to target those drafts. 

[pilldoc]

9 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Where have I not said this?

Where have I said the team is done being rebuilt?

 

I wasn't questioning you ...you asked how others felt.  I simply gave my observation.

 

10 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

With the arrival of Matvei Michkov, I think they could be better than last season.

 

From an offensive standpoint he should help immediately.  The question remains, what happens on the PP.  If the PP improves it very well could be because of Michkov.  If it does NOT improve it is because of coaching/system and needs to be rectified.

 

13 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I have also said, because I think it, they have questions on defense and with the goaltending and could just as easily be awful this year. 

 

Too small sample size on Ersson or Fedotov .... I really have no idea what to expect.

A healthy Drysdale should help .....  but Torts will stress defense and shot blocking.

 

16 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

There are a lot of 1st picks next year, those guys and Luchenko could be the "really good" depth guys that lift the boat. 

 

Agree and agree to disagree .... agree there are a lot of picks.  Thing is those picks must be picked/choosen wisely.  As mentioned before I am slowly coming around the Luchenko pick, however, you had not 1 but 2 higher rated players fall into your lap.  I will happily eat crow if he turns into a stud.  Luchenko has been likened to Nick Suzucki, whereas Helenius is a complete player and has been compared to a Brayden Point type player.  I favored Helenius at the draft.  Again we will compare Helenius and Luchenko in 3 years.  You know me long enough ... if I am wrong I will admit I am wrong.

 

23 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I stand by my belief the Penguins success through deliberate sucking has damaged the psyche of this fan base.

 

That has some merit ...however, if to succeed in this league you need high end talent and you are not willing to pay through the nose either via trade or FA, then how do you get said talent?  Chicago sucked for awhile then got Toews / Kane and several cups.  Florida was near the bottom and drafted Barkov.  The jury will be out on Chicago with Bedard but they have a lot of high end prospects.  The Oilers came close this year in the SCF and they McDavid / Draisaitl (drafted 3rd overall).  SJ now has Celebrini and other high end prospects.

 

So if history bears out that 95% of the cup winning teams have a player drafted 1-5 overall, just how do you get said talent?  Yes I agree there is risk involved.

 

Not arguing your point as I believe you do make a very valid point/argument.  

34 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Look no further than the Sixers who were so into sucking they were told "YOU NEED TO STOP SUCKING NOW" by the league and haven't won anything, can't get out of the 2nd round. 

 

Again another valid point but then the NHL and NBA are too different animals.  I don't follow the Sixers enough to understand all their dumb moves .....

 

Bottom line many on here are just plain frustrated because this organization keeps making the same dumb stupid moves year after year after freaking year.  Fletch has set this team back for years ......

 

I "AM" curious what this team will look like in 2 years once all the CAP room opens up.

 

 

[pilldoc]

26 minutes ago, CoachX said:

This statement baffles the schit out of me…

 

I get the talent argument and totally agree. But if the Flyer way requires enormous dedication and hard work, and that’s unsustainable, what are other teams doing?

 

are they not dedicated?

Do they not work hard?

so other teams talent is so good that they win a championship without doing these things?

 

it sounds like excuses to me

 

I think @flyercanuck said it perfect.  I direct you to his post. 

 

Reread my college baseball analogy .... we worked hard, we practiced hard but in the end we simply were not talented enough.  Its not an excuse ...its a reality.

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

Culture is more important than scheme- Bill Belechek.

 

Tom Brady (aka high end talent) is more important then either, or the coach. 

[mojo1917]

3 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Tom Brady (aka high end talent) is more important then either, or the coach. 

You saw where I said the bit about good players in the next sentence- yes?

[CoachX]

18 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

 

I think @flyercanuck said it perfect.  I direct you to his post. 

 

Reread my college baseball analogy .... we worked hard, we practiced hard but in the end we simply were not talented enough.  Its not an excuse ...its a reality.

I agree FC made a valid point

 

i also see your point. Most time, no matter how hard you work, you will lose out to better talent 

 

where I get frustrated is the “unsustainable” argument. I’m sure your baseball analogy is spot on, but there have also been historical times where hard work has beat more talent. Back on topic, if the Flyers are admittedly less talented, then they have no choice but to work harder. Arguing that doing that will still lose out to talent is one thing. Arguing that the players and team can’t hang at that level because of wear and tear, or fatigue, is something completely different 

[mojo1917]

17 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Tom Brady (aka high end talent) is more important than either, or the coach. 

Also I’ll add Tom Brady didn’t stop Peyton Manning, Edggerin James, Ben Rothlisberger, Donavan McNabb and Terrell Owens.

That was done by a bunch of no name guys that bought into a system and did their jobs. 
Can you name on wide receiver Brady threw to? How about running backs he played with? 
Unless you’re a pats fan that answer is no for most people.

Belichek did it with good players, he put them in position to be successful for 15 whatever years. Arguably the most successful sports franchise of this century.

He stressed culture, he succeeded,I can see where trying to build a winner would try to use some of his methods.

[CoachX]

10 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Can you name on wide receiver Brady threw to?

Randy Moss

[pilldoc]

21 minutes ago, CoachX said:

where I get frustrated is the “unsustainable” argument.

 If you are working hard giving it your all and giving it 100% or more ...eventually fatigue and momentary lapses will eventually happen.  That was my point.  It is hard to have that mindset all the time .....

[pilldoc]

27 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Arguing that the players and team can’t hang at that level because of wear and tear, or fatigue, is something completely different 

 

Pretty much spot on .....

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

Also I’ll add Tom Brady didn’t stop Peyton Manning, Edggerin James, Ben Rothlisberger, Donavan McNabb and Terrell Owens.

That was done by a bunch of no name guys that bought into a system and did their jobs. 
Can you name on wide receiver Brady threw to? How about running backs he played with? 
Unless you’re a pats fan that answer is no for most people.

Belichek did it with good players, he put them in position to be successful for 15 whatever years. Arguably the most successful sports franchise of this century.

He stressed culture, he succeeded,I can see where trying to build a winner would try to use some of his methods.

 

I won't disagree with what you're saying here mojo...but you take Tom Brady out of the equation and Bill and his hoodies aren't winning those super bowls. 

[flyer4ever]

3 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

How many guys under 25 on this team?

a lot- I'm not looking it up.

The culture being built isn't "everything Sean Couturier learned from Jacob Voracek"... its coming from John Tortorella, 

If Torts singles out 3 guys who can help him imprint hard work and accountability to the " a lot of under 25-year-old players" So they can then pass it on to the new guys that come after them? then that's good. That's how culture change happens.

If 11, 14 and 21 are the senior guys when the culture change occurs, they either buy in or wind up in St Louis.

It appears they bought in. The room was good last season, probably because those guys were the leaders. 

Culture is more important than scheme- Bill Belechek.

 

Look, the most important thing is good players but if good players are working hard and being accountable to one another that's not going to hurt anything. 

 

 

All of the culture and hard work drove them all the way to mediocre. When the lack of depth caused burn out in the last 3 weeks we saw the real Flyers. Other teams started to ramp up for the playoffs and we saw the results.  No skill, no depth up and down the line up. No amount of culture and work ethic are going to get them past a 1st round shelling at best. The modern day NHL requires high end skill. Dumb and dumber apparently will never get that.

[mojo1917]

2 hours ago, CoachX said:

Randy Moss

Did not win a championship with Randy Moss.

[mojo1917]

51 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

All of the culture and hard work drove them all the way to mediocre. When the lack of depth caused burn out in the last 3 weeks we saw the real Flyers. Other teams started to ramp up for the playoffs and we saw the results.  No skill, no depth up and down the line up. No amount of culture and work ethic are going to get them past a 1st round shelling at best. The modern day NHL requires high end skill. Dumb and dumber apparently will never get that.

At no point did I say I think the job is finished. 
They’ve added some pretty good young players in the last 2 off seasons. 
They’re going to add more or use those picks from trades and retaining salary to trade for a high end player. 
I don’t know where people look at the team and where they are and think , yep all good now.  
Every time I hear Danny or Jonesy speak they say there is more work to do.

i don’t know how they have transformed into dumb and dumber I don’t see it. Was it the draft? Helenius was a we need the player now pick. High floor lower ceiling, Buium has the same agent as Bill Gauthier, who burned the team.

did the Luchenko pick make them dumber? 
It didn’t have that effect on me.

[mojo1917]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

 

I won't disagree with what you're saying here mojo...but you take Tom Brady out of the equation and Bill and his hoodies aren't winning those super bowls. 

You mean Tom Brady the 6th round pick? 
I understand and agree they weren’t dominant without Brady.

He's a bad example to use if we’re talking about sucking to get your best players though. 

[flyercanuck]

56 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

You mean Tom Brady the 6th round pick? 
I understand and agree they weren’t dominant without Brady.

He's a bad example to use if we’re talking about sucking to get your best players though. 

 

And football isn't hockey, so ya.

 

I already mentioned about not having much faith in the Flyers finding gems in the late rounds...they just don't. 

[mojo1917]

@flyercanuck

agreed, they’ve found star level players in the 10-25 range though.

 

 

[SCFlyguy]

8 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

the result is the same as sucking while getting rid of everyone good at hockey right?

 

The team still, you know, sucked; but not the right way ?

 

That's weird.

 

Lol, they sucked without the multiple top 5 draft picks, then alienated the one top 5 draft pick they did have.

[mojo1917]

1 hour ago, SCFlyguy said:

Lol, they sucked without the multiple top 5 draft picks, then alienated the one top 5 draft pick they did have.

JvR #2 overall

Nolan Patrick #2 overall

Bill Gauthier #5 overall and bros with Kevin Hayes. Prima Donna whatever, he's immature at best, and I hope he has fun banging starlets in Newport Beach.

There were multiple top 5 picks during this whole era of sucking. 

 

They could improve this season and finish lower in the standings, they could outright suck, they could finish with similar results to last season. Everything but a championship is on the table unless one of the goalies goes on a heater, even then I don't see the horses yet..

They don't suck in the exact way you and some others find suitable.

It's weird but, Heard chef.

[CoachX]

6 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

Did not win a championship with Randy Moss.

That wasn’t your question. 
 

What’s more significant, the season he had with a known receiver in Moss, or all the Superbowls he won with guys we have to research?

[CoachX]

9 hours ago, pilldoc said:

 If you are working hard giving it your all and giving it 100% or more ...eventually fatigue and momentary lapses will eventually happen.  That was my point.  It is hard to have that mindset all the time .....

So you are saying it’s ok for players to back off of a full 100% effort all the time in order to sustain a complete season?

 

didn’t one of the Flyer players recently say that he doesn’t give/ can’t give 100% all the time, every game?

 

I seem to recall that player getting highly criticized on this forum

[mojo1917]

22 minutes ago, CoachX said:

That wasn’t your question. 
 

What’s more significant, the season he had with a known receiver in Moss, or all the Superbowls he won with guys we have to research?

IMO that would be the superbowls with anonymous.

 

clearly you are not “most people”

[pilldoc]

10 hours ago, CoachX said:

So you are saying it’s ok for players to back off of a full 100% effort all the time in order to sustain a complete season?

 

didn’t one of the Flyer players recently say that he doesn’t give/ can’t give 100% all the time, every game?

 

I seem to recall that player getting highly criticized on this forum

 
you worded better here which is spot on…. And I told you that….

 

20 hours ago,  CoachX said:

Arguing that the players and team can’t hang at that level because of wear and tear, or fatigue, is something completely different 

 

Pretty much spot on .....

[GratefulFlyers]

19 hours ago, CoachX said:

didn’t one of the Flyer players recently say that he doesn’t give/ can’t give 100% all the time, every game?

 

I seem to recall that player getting highly criticized on this forum

 

"highly criticized?" You woulda thought the guy spit in their face kicked their dog then poured sugar in their gas tank.