Travis Konecny extended 8 years @ 8.75 million / year

[radoran]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

Explain the lack of Stanley Cups.

 

Fun fact, Homer himself says that this is a shortcoming.

 

[CoachX]

14 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Fun fact, Homer himself says that this is a shortcoming.

 

Considering all the years that have gone by, I’d say it’s a long coming 

[radoran]

3 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Considering all the years that have gone by, I’d say it’s a long coming 

 

He said it when he "retired" - that it was the thing he was charged with doing and he didn't get it done.

 

Hall of Fame.

 

[CoachX]

14 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

He said it when he "retired" - that it was the thing he was charged with doing and he didn't get it done.

 

Hall of Fame.

 

Too many punches to the melon

[SCFlyguy]

19 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

Pre-Bike Accident Homer was doing a great job.

Then Mr Snider got sick.

If you're talking that Homer then good point. (post dain-bramaged)

If you're talking the Homer that signed Danny and turned Petr Foresburg's bum foot and a first pick into Kimo Timmonen, Scott Hartnell, Scotty Upshall and sigh Ryan Parent. That Homer was pretty good.  

Pre-Bike Accident Homer traded a 1st round pick for Steve Eminger when John Carlson was sitting there to be drafted late in the first round.  The dude was an alcoholic, gambling mark and every GM in the league was excited when he called.

 

Edited August 17 by SCFlyguy

[CoachX]

The Flyers organization looks like the only place where you don’t have to be qualified or competent to have job security for the rest of your life. The only experience needed is you must have played for the team in some capacity, and not always be successful at it

 

In most job markets, not being able to perform in your current position will often lead to you being fired.

 

I do admire the loyalty the Flyers have, but it obviously does not equate to winning championships. For me, this means disloyalty to your customers, the ones you actually need to even have a feanchise

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

The Flyers organization looks like the only place where you don’t have to be qualified or competent to have job security for the rest of your life. The only experience needed is you must have played for the team in some capacity, and not always be successful at it

 

In most job markets, not being able to perform in your current position will often lead to you being fired.

 

I do admire the loyalty the Flyers have, but it obviously does not equate to winning championships. For me, this means disloyalty to your customers, the ones you actually need to even have a feanchise

 

Paul Holmgren...decent player (joined the team as a full time player the year after back to back cups...they haven't won one since) , that got him the coaching position, which he wasn't any good at, which got him the GM position, which he wasn't good at, which got him president (he hired Chuck Fletcher, I rest my case) and all that mediocre to terrible got him into the Flyers Hall of Fame.

[radoran]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

The only experience needed is you must have played for the team in some capacity, and not always be successful at it

 

Keith Jones was here for 1/4 of his career, was a "pretty good" player, talks good on teevee: Team President.

 

I like ol' Jonesey fine, but to your point his primary qualification was having played here for *checks notes* basically two seasons, and 131 games in which he scored 74 points.

 

And saved Lindros' life when the organization tried to kill him.

 

There was that.

[CoachX]

31 minutes ago, radoran said:

And saved Lindros' life when the organization tried to kill him.

 

There was that.

And it only took them 25 years or so to reward him. Ol Clarkie sure can hold a grudge 

[pilldoc]

@CoachX

@flyercanuck

@radoran

@SCFlyguy

 

The Flyers FO over the past decade, collectively, is about as well run as the crew from the Titanic.  And we all know were the Titanic ended up.

 

All excellent points in your posts ......

 

 

 

[GratefulFlyers]

3 hours ago, radoran said:

I like ol' Jonesey fine, but to your point his primary qualification was having played here for *checks notes* basically two seasons, and 131 games in which he scored 74 points.

 

Everyone who talks about Keith Jones invariably says 2 things. One - he's a character, easy to work with, fun to be around, a genuinely "good guy." Two - he's as smart as anyone in the business, knows the NHL and has good relations with the league's key people.

 

None of that makes him a good president but they're actual qualifications. I guess because I heard this stuff before they hired Jones I didn't get much "here go again" feeling. I can understand why many did.

[radoran]

5 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

Everyone who talks about Keith Jones invariably says 2 things. One - he's a character, easy to work with, fun to be around, a genuinely "good guy." Two - he's as smart as anyone in the business, knows the NHL and has good relations with the league's key people.

 

None of that makes him a good president but they're actual qualifications. I guess because I heard this stuff before they hired Jones I didn't get much "here go again" feeling. I can understand why many did.

 

I don't dispute any of this.

 

Doesn't mean he'll magically know how to make a Cup winner.

 

Neither of them have.

 

In terms of building a foundation of success:

 

1) hire two guys who have never done it before

2)

3) build a culture around three guys who were here when it left

 

Seems to be missing something...

 

[mojo1917]

15 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

Pre-Bike Accident Homer traded a 1st round pick for Steve Eminger when John Carlson was sitting there to be drafted late in the first round.  The dude was an alcoholic, gambling mark and every GM in the league was excited when he called.

 

Definitely trying to be the smartest guy in the room that night. That was an indefensible poor decision .

[mojo1917]

On 8/16/2024 at 10:42 PM, CoachX said:

Really? Pretty good, you say? Explain Chuck Fletcher. Explain the dismal

playoff runs. Explain the lack of Stanley Cups. Explain Bryzgalov. Explain Bobrovsky. Explain Vinny Lecavalier.  Explain all the long term contracts and no movement clauses.
 

I bet you’re gonna say all those things weren’t his fault, that someone else made the decisions. 

Yeah, Fletcher and some of the decisions you mentioned were post-bike accident.

The Richards Carter team was pretty good. Homer built it. Then seemed to lose his mind. That team made the playoffs 5 straight years. He had a good core group signed good depth guys…that group was good.

[mojo1917]

6 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

None of that makes him a good president but they're actual qualifications.

All of it does, especially knowing the market where he worked for years…his actions in the role will determine if he’s good or not. 

 

Talking on tv especially nationally has given him an up close view of winning organizations.

It’s not hard to look at a successful team and say” let’s try that” , or “I don’t like that way so let’s skip that sucking forever part”. 

The actual doing of the thing might be more difficult than he imagined but he has a vision. Most likely gleaned from covering the playoffs nationally.
 

[SCFlyguy]

8 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

It’s not hard to look at a successful team and say” let’s try that” , or “I don’t like that way so let’s skip that sucking forever part”. 

The problem is they don't realize that every "successful team" had a period of "sucking" that immediately preceded and directly lead to them being "successful".  Every single one.

[mojo1917]

32 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said:

The problem is they don't realize that every "successful team" had a period of "sucking" that immediately preceded and directly lead to them being "successful".  Every single one.

How would you characterize this team’s performance over the last 3 seasons?

[Cheesesteak]

On 8/16/2024 at 12:00 AM, GratefulFlyers said:

 

Didn't he say he learned from Fletcher too?

 

But I can't knock Briere for not doing what no one expected him to do. Strip the team and focus on high picks is not the "Flyers' way" and until Clarke and the 70s/80s leftovers retire it won't be the Flyers' way.

 

They had the perfect opportunity to rebuild after they fired Fletcher and didn't take it. Jones/Briere are still a fresh start but the Old Boys called the play and that was that.

 

 

Until the Flyers escape this never-ending nightmare, their "Goal/Fight" song is this...until they win a cup.

 

Chuck, Chuck, bo-bhuck
Banana-fana fo-fhuck
Fee-fi-mo-mhuck
Chuck!

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

How would you characterize this team’s performance over the last 3 seasons?

 

Sucking, while trying to win?

[mojo1917]

10 hours ago, radoran said:

In terms of building a foundation of success:

 

1) hire two guys who have never done it before

2)

3) build a culture around three guys who were here when it left

How many guys under 25 on this team?

a lot- I'm not looking it up.

The culture being built isn't "everything Sean Couturier learned from Jacob Voracek"... its coming from John Tortorella, 

If Torts singles out 3 guys who can help him imprint hard work and accountability to the " a lot of under 25-year-old players" So they can then pass it on to the new guys that come after them? then that's good. That's how culture change happens.

If 11, 14 and 21 are the senior guys when the culture change occurs, they either buy in or wind up in St Louis.

It appears they bought in. The room was good last season, probably because those guys were the leaders. 

Culture is more important than scheme- Bill Belechek.

 

Look, the most important thing is good players but if good players are working hard and being accountable to one another that's not going to hurt anything. 

 

 

[mojo1917]

1 minute ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Sucking, while trying to win?

the result is the same as sucking while getting rid of everyone good at hockey right?

 

The team still, you know, sucked; but not the right way ?

 

That's weird.

 

[pilldoc]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

How would you characterize this team’s performance over the last 3 seasons?

 

So I will play this game ….

Listed below are the respective records and goals for and against for the Flyers during the past 3 seasons.

2023-24 Philadelphia Flyers Roster and Statistics

Record: 38-33-11 (87 points), Finished 6th in NHL Metropolitan Division  (Schedule and Results)

Coach: John Tortorella (38-33-11)

Goals For: 235 (27th of 32), Goals Against: 261 (18th of 32)

 

2022-23 Philadelphia Flyers Roster and Statistics

Record: 31-38-13 (75 points), Finished 7th in NHL Metropolitan Division  (Schedule and Results)

Coach: John Tortorella (31-38-13)

Goals For: 222 (29th of 32), Goals Against: 277 (22nd of 32)

 

2021-22 Philadelphia Flyers Roster and Statistics

Previous Season Next Season

Record: 25-46-11 (61 points), Finished 8th in NHL Metropolitan Division  (Schedule and Results)

Coach: Alain Vigneault (8-10-4), Mike Yeo (17-36-7)

Goals For: 211 (31st of 32), Goals Against: 298 (27th of 32)

 

Compared to the rest of the League the Flyers are still a bottom dwelling team.  If you want to use the word suck, sucking, disappointment …whatever term you want.  Bottom line this team as constructed simply is not good enough to compete in the rigorous playoff system the NHL has.

 

Has there been an improvement.  Sure, anyone who follows hockey knows Torts is a defensive minded coach and brings some form of accountability and one should expect an improvement in the defense which is evident. (27^th in GA 2 years ago and 18^th in GA last season)

 

As I posted in another posted and as @radoran agrees, hard work with a team lacking in talent is not going to bring success in the PO.  Sure it will win you a game here or there against better talented teams during the regular season, but not in the PO.

 

As I posted in the other thread ….

 

“the Flyers blocked nearly 35% of the shot attempts generated by the opposing teams. This is a case of statistics where it’s best to put the data in the context of standard deviations. That is, just how far removed from the general population is this Philadelphia shot blocking value? It turns out that the rate at which the Flyers block shots (under Tortorella) is 3.1 standard deviations from the norm—and for those who crave and understand statistics ….that’s massive and unusual.  For context the next closest team in shot blocking was the Vegas Knights at a 1.8 standard deviation.

 

So most would say …Who cares how the Flyers suppress shots as long as they are doing it, right? Well ….not exactly. The Flyers’ approach to play requires enormous dedication and hard work. It’s tiring; it’s painful; and, over the long haul, it’s unsustainable. This is where injuries occur.”

 

“One reason the Flyers play this way is because they simply do not have the talent to keep up with their opponents (if they did, they wouldn’t need to block so many shot attempts because there would be far fewer shot attempts that required blocking).  Most of us already knew that, but the point here is how statistics back this thought process up. ……..

 

The Flyers excel in every aspect of the game that requires hard work. There is nothing wrong with that.  Many of wanted this team to work and Torts is doing just that. They suppress shots like nearly no other team; they block shots at a rate other teams can’t even sniff; and they kill penalties with 83.4% success (ranked 4th by the way).”

 

“Unfortunately for both us as fans the Flyers, a large part of the game of hockey still requires a high level of skill—a trait the Flyers lack. Again something many of us on here already know ….this team lacks high level of skill.”

 

So let’s play a game ….  Besides Michkov, who appears to have bonafide skill, who else on this current Flyers team, would the NHL consider to have high end skill? 

 

Again from my other post …..

 

“So let’s see what are the results of a team that plays hard but lacks skill? Despite ranking 4th in shot production, they rank 27th in goal production. Despite ranking 2nd in shot suppression, they rank 18th in goal suppression. And their power play, which is likely the part of the game in which skill matters far more than effort, ranks dead last with an anemic 12.2% conversion rate.

 

(No matter how you look at that ….they Flyers absolutely suck on the PP.)

 

 Here is some interesting food for thought ….This Flyers’ power play posted the 18th lowest conversion rate going back through the 1977-1978 season when the NHL first began tracking this data.

 

(That is some high suckage (or whatever term on wants to use) right there in black and white …no amount of hard work is overcoming that)

 

“ Were the 2023-2024 Flyers unlucky? Maybe. Their ability to convert shots into goals at even strength (tEVSH%) was just 7.65%. Their ability to prevent shots against from turning into goals against (tEVSV%) was just 0.895. These numbers rank 29th and 32nd, respectively. That’s the trouble with a team with many unskilled players—it becomes difficult, if not impossible, to distinguish bad luck from a lack of talent.”

 

Bottom line … this team is what it is.  A hard working team that lacks high end skill/talent.  In a league where the ultimate end goal is consistent playoff appearances which leads to Lord Stanley, as constructed, this team is a low end, borderline middling team finishing at the bottom of their division.

 

I use this analogy all the time …. My college baseball team sucked … though not for the lack of trying or effort.  Our school was a small academic school focused on pharmacy and other allied health majors. We simply did not have the talent to compete with some of the other NCAA Div. II schools.  Would we get lucky and win a game here or there against those better schools ….. sure, but there was no way, as constructed we were ever going to win our conference, regionals, super-regionals, etc ……

 

Same with the Flyers ….  As constructed they simply are not a good team when compared the more elite teams in the league.  Will they win occasionally because of hard work …. Yes.  Have they improved from 2 years ago …. Yes based off of the final records. Sure they have improved.  But when you look into the offensive metrics ….yes they still suck.   I will tip my hat to Torts who has may this team better defensively, but they are still a middling team despite the improvement.

 

Culture is important ...but you need high end talent.

I agree with @flyercanuck ... an organization sucking while trying to win without doing a full tear down to the studs .....  in other words ... the same MO for years.

Edited August 18 by pilldoc

[mojo1917]

26 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

Same with the Flyers ….  As constructed they simply are not a good team when compared the more elite teams in the league.  Will they win occasionally because of hard work …. Yes.  Have they improved from 2 years ago …. Yes based off of the final records. Sure they have improved.  But when you look into the offensive metrics ….yes they still suck.   I will tip my hat to Torts who has may this team better defensively, but they are still a middling team despite the improvement.

 

Culture is important ...but you need high end talent.

 

Where have I not said this?

Where have I said the team is done being rebuilt?

With the arrival of Matvei Michkov, I think they could be better than last season.

I have also said, because I think it, they have questions on defense and with the goaltending and could just as easily be awful this year. 

That would make 4 years of bad Flyers hockey, but somehow, 4 straight years of bad hockey isn't satisfactory to many folks here. So what is it they want 10- 15 ?  because that's on the table now. It's real easy to slip into the void (shout out Myles Kennedy!) from where this team is. 

There are a lot of 1st picks next year, those guys and Luchenko could be the "really good" depth guys that lift the boat. 

One might be a star (scouts have found "really good/star" players in the 20s) who will play with Michkov, Konecny who's statistics say is top-line talent ( the past two seasons) and Drysdale (if Shaw can fix him) hey maybe even Bonk joins that group.

 

I stand by my belief the Penguins success through deliberate sucking has damaged the psyche of this fan base.

Be terrible it's the only way...I think it's ********. I hate that team and I hate losing; so seeing everyone here embrace that method? Look no further than the Sixers who were so into sucking they were told "YOU NEED TO STOP SUCKING NOW" by the league and haven't won anything, can't get out of the 2nd round. 

But no the Flyers aren't sucking the right way?...dude they suck.

I find it infuriating.

 

Edited August 18 by mojo1917

[CoachX]

32 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

The Flyers’ approach to play requires enormous dedication and hard work. It’s tiring; it’s painful; and, over the long haul, it’s unsustainable. This is where injuries occur.”

This statement baffles the schit out of me…

 

I get the talent argument and totally agree. But if the Flyer way requires enormous dedication and hard work, and that’s unsustainable, what are other teams doing?

 

are they not dedicated?

Do they not work hard?

so other teams talent is so good that they win a championship without doing these things?

 

it sounds like excuses to me

[flyercanuck]

11 minutes ago, CoachX said:

This statement baffles the schit out of me…

 

I get the talent argument and totally agree. But if the Flyer way requires enormous dedication and hard work, and that’s unsustainable, what are other teams doing?

 

are they not dedicated?

Do they not work hard?

so other teams talent is so good that they win a championship without doing these things?

 

it sounds like excuses to me

 

The difference is, if you have talent AND work hard, you can win a championship. You likely aren't going to with one or the other. It's a lot easier to bring in Tortsie to whip the team into a short lived frenzy, than it is to acquire high end talent needed to go the distance. We saw the short lived frenzy, but as mentioned, it's just not sustainable when you don't have the horses.

 

So of course the Flyers took the easy way, which takes us where we are. Lacking enough high end talent to win championships. Michkov (who because of politics and nothing Flyer management did) fell into our lap. Yes Briere may have helped speed up the process of getting him over here, and good on him for that. And we still have Tortsie, to help us continue to be a borderline playoff team acquiring borderline talent. Unless some high end falls into our lap...which we're now batting .500 on drafting.