Five Big Questions for 2024-25: A Mid-Summer Take

[flyercanuck]

6 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Either way won't change the fact that Buium is almost a full year older than him.

 

If it doesn't result in the Flyers winning a Cup it doesn't even matter right now...

 

 

I don't think either one of them is what Philly needs to win a cup. I think they're both good complimentary players, but not game changers.

[OccamsRazor]

4 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

Hey, I hope he ends up better, I like the kids game.

 

And for the record i can't believe they passed on the kid either i wasn't even familiar with him too much till i watched a few games to get a look at Rizzo.

 

But the kid stood out like a sore thumb in a good way.

 

But honestly fast forward to the draft and i thought no way they land this kid till he fell and then they passed and i was livid at the time. Mostly because i didn't know a lot about Luch  and had to do some homework.

 

I guess now i'm at peace with it.

 

What else can we do?

[OccamsRazor]

Just now, flyercanuck said:

 

I don't think either one of them is what Philly needs to win a cup. I think they're both good complimentary players, but not game changers.

 

I agree but can hopefully be a building block of the eventual Cup is fine by me as long as we get Cup!!!

 

Nothing else matters to me!

[GratefulFlyers]

On 8/22/2024 at 3:39 PM, radoran said:

When I spent ten years saying that Giroux and Voracek weren't as good as other duos in their division much less the Conference to say nothing of the League, it wasn't because I wanted to be right. It's because I was.

 

If you limit the argument to "best duo" then obviously you're right when Crosby is in your division. But if you mean "not good enough to win the Cup" I disagree.

 

Knocking Giroux is your thing I get it but it's just not correct to say he wasn't good enough. It was the rest of the team including the coaches that wasn't good enough. G and J, Simmonds and Couturier at their peak? Fill out the roster with better players and it's a Cup-worthy maybe Cup-winning team.

 

I'm probably mixing up the years but that "core" could've won the Cup if they didn't have shitD - wasn't Andrew MacDonald still playing 20+? - and crappy, cast-off goaltending - also practically no secondary scoring.

 

I'm too lazy to look up the years/rosters but I'm positive somewhere around 2017 the Flyers had a window with those 4 leaders...a window looking at the Cup with better support players.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 28 by GratefulFlyers

[radoran]

1 hour ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Fill out the roster with better players and it's a Cup-worthy maybe Cup-winning team.

 

This is actually the point.

 

You can't win with a couple good players. You need an entire ensemble.

 

Pick the wrong guys the build around and you make the job almost impossible.

 

Giroux was a dynamic winger who had never been a captain. He was a perfect fit for a team with Richards and Crater. (See what I did there?)

 

They made him into a #1C and made him captain because they had no other choice.

 

He re-emerged as the dynamic winger in recent seasons with the Flyers and the Sens.

 

I don't "hate" Giroux. He wasn't good enough to be the focal point of a championship team and was completely miscast by a team who's Senior Hockey Advisor didn't even know his name when they picked him (true story).

 

My evidence is his career.

 

His supporting cast didn't help.

 

He's not the Hall of Fame player he might have been if he had been able to conduct his career as something of a Mark Recchi style/role.

 

As we've discussed many times, Homer had actually BUILT a team. He had elements that got to the Cup Final. They were a seriously competitive team the next year, with a disappointing playoff.

 

Then they blew it all up to make a 35 year old defenceman the focal point.

 

When that blew up in their face they reached for the only straw they had and "built" around Giroux.

 

The "not good enough" supporting cast was the exact result of "winning the trades." Voracek, Simmonds, BSchenn, and Couturier were SUPPOSED to be the supporting cast for their SUPERSTAR center captain, who wasn't a center and had never been a captain.

 

Because he was supposed to be the supporting cast for the team they blew up.

 

They doubled down trading a eventual 30-goal scorer for Luke Schenn, to get the "brother" magic going.

 

They picked in the middle and got solid NHL players like Laughton.

 

They pursued this for 10 years.

 

I don't "hate" Sean Couturier. I quite like Travis Konecny, but he has the limitations we've seen on the power play that keep him from the next level. Laughton fills his role well.

 

They are just not better than other leadership cores on other teams.

 

The Flyers are in exactly the position to be the Minnesota Wild when Kiril Kaprizov arrived. They had invested heavy in Suter/Parise. Both got bought out, the GM got fired, and they're wondering if Kaprizov wants to stay while they clean up the mess.

 

For all that Edmonton's been through, they have two of the best players in the world and just played a Game 7 of a Cup Final.

 

It could work. It probably won't. Heavily probably.

 

When so much has to go right for a team with two of the best players in the world to win, how much more do we want to add to the "needs to go right" side of the equation?

 

I'd be happy to watch a team that is a serious threat to win a round or two every year so much more than one that continually struggles to make the playoffs.

 

I don't see that team on this roster. And this roster will have the same core for the next 3-4 years, signed longer.

 

I can think of half a dozen teams below the Flyers with better chances to become the team that has a consistent chance at winning a round or two.

 

And they're younger, with cap space, and not committed to three veteran players in leadership positions with long term contracts.

 

YMMV

 

I've been wrong before. Happy to be now.

 

Have been that way for ten years.

Edited August 28 by radoran

[GratefulFlyers]

19 hours ago, radoran said:

20 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Fill out the roster with better players and it's a Cup-worthy maybe Cup-winning team.

 

This is actually the point.

 

Except that wasn't your point about "they weren't even the best duo in the division..."

 

19 hours ago, radoran said:

were SUPPOSED to be the supporting cast for their SUPERSTAR center captain, who wasn't a center and had never been a captain.

 

Other than Laviolette stupidly commenting,"when the best player in the world..." (supposedly prior to The Shift) I don't recall anyone around the Flyers referring to Giroux as their "superstar." Hell Clarke couldn't even remember the guy's name at the draft ! lol

 

So I think you mischaracterize the situation when you say they were "building around Giroux." I think the Flyers understood they had a core (including Giroux or not) with no superstars but were still a productive, tough-to-play against group. A solid core but not much else. 

 

19 hours ago, radoran said:

When so much has to go right for a team with two of the best players in the world to win, how much more do we want to add to the "needs to go right" side of the equation?

 

If you mean McDavid and Draisaitl together couldn't get it done what chance do Konecny and 30+ year old Couturier have to lead the Flyers to a Cup...? I hear ya. So we're back to high-end talent and where the Flyers will find it. I get the impression from the interviews Briere feels they can develop most of what they'll need. 

[radoran]

2 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Except that wasn't your point about "they weren't even the best duo in the division..."

 

They weren't good enough. The evidence is evident. Part of it I note was being miscast.

 

You can engage in "what ifs" all you like.

 

Fantasies are just that.

 

2 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

If you mean McDavid and Draisaitl together couldn't get it done what chance do Konecny and 30+ year old Couturier have to lead the Flyers to a Cup...?

 

No, I mean McDavid and Draisaitl are in Game 7 of the Cup Final and the Flyers' core just missed the playoffs.

 

Again.

 

And they've got several years of opportunity to go.

 

2 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

I get the impression from the interviews Briere feels they can develop most of what they'll need. 

 

Which is what has gotten them where they are

 

Because, I mean, look at their record of developing anything.

 

And before we get to "New Era of Orange" take a look at who's still in Lehigh Valley.

 

I get the grass is always greener argument the Flyers have been making for almost two decades now, but the field isn't all that fertile.

 

Until they make fundamental changes - and bringing in two ex-players isn't it - they aren't going anywhere.

 

Again, always happy to be wrong - as I've been writing since they won the trades.

 

Edited August 29 by radoran

[ruxpin]

8 hours ago, radoran said:

 

They weren't good enough. The evidence is evident. Part of it I note was being miscast.

 

You can engage in "what ifs" all you like.

 

Fantasies are just that.

 

 

No, I mean McDavid and Draisaitl are in Game 7 of the Cup Final and the Flyers' core just missed the playoffs.

 

Again.

 

And they've got several years of opportunity to go.

 

 

Which is what has gotten them where they are

 

Because, I mean, look at their record of developing anything.

 

And before we get to "New Era of Orange" take a look at who's still in Lehigh Valley.

 

I get the grass is always greener argument the Flyers have been making for almost two decades now, but the field isn't all that fertile.

 

Until they make fundamental changes - and bringing in two ex-players isn't it - they aren't going anywhere.

 

Again, always happy to be wrong - as I've been writing since they won the trades.

 

 

Seriously, without the time/date stamp, it would be really difficult to figure out which of the last 12 years this p̶o̶s̶t̶ thread was from. 

 

 

[RonJeremy]

On 8/27/2024 at 10:48 PM, GratefulFlyers said:

 

If you limit the argument to "best duo" then obviously you're right when Crosby is in your division. But if you mean "not good enough to win the Cup" I disagree.

 

Knocking Giroux is your thing I get it but it's just not correct to say he wasn't good enough. It was the rest of the team including the coaches that wasn't good enough. G and J, Simmonds and Couturier at their peak? Fill out the roster with better players and it's a Cup-worthy maybe Cup-winning team.

 

I'm probably mixing up the years but that "core" could've won the Cup if they didn't have shitD - wasn't Andrew MacDonald still playing 20+? - and crappy, cast-off goaltending - also practically no secondary scoring.

 

I'm too lazy to look up the years/rosters but I'm positive somewhere around 2017 the Flyers had a window with those 4 leaders...a window looking at the Cup with better support players.

 

 

 

 

When we had G and Voracek, they were pass first guys playing on the same line and they would never shoot.  They should have been on separate lines and we had no finishers to benefit from their playmaking. Now we have several finishers and no setup guys other than Frost, who right now is a third liner in terms of production. We have never properly built a team and put the pieces of the puzzle together correctly.  Today we have a bunch of scoring right wings and are weak at center and LW. We have a collection of second and third pair dmen and no legit first pair. Same old story.

[flyercanuck]

15 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

When we had G and Voracek, they were pass first guys playing on the same line and they would never shoot.  They should have been on separate lines and we had no finishers to benefit from their playmaking. Now we have several finishers and no setup guys other than Frost, who right now is a third liner in terms of production. We have never properly built a team and put the pieces of the puzzle together correctly.  Today we have a bunch of scoring right wings and are weak at center and LW. We have a collection of second and third pair dmen and no legit first pair. Same old story.

 

You forgot goalies....we don't have a starter. 

[SCFlyguy]

Those G and V teams needed 3-4 good to great defensemen and a good goalie just to be legit playoff teams (never mind actually getting to an ECF).

 

And they still had more top end talent than the current team.

 

We will see if Michkov and the players in the pipeline change that, but the Flyers history of developing players isn't giving me confidence.

[RonJeremy]

6 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

You forgot goalies....we don't have a starter. 

Yep, anyone that thinks we will be a better team than last year is dreaming.  We will score more goals even with slight development of Farabee, Frost,Tippett,Brink,Foerester and the addition of Michkov, but the defense is highly suspect, especially the second pair. We expect a career #6-7 guy Seeler to continue to play over his head and a guy, who can't play D and who's been injured for almost three years to play second pair minutes..and as you said, the goaltending is suspect. We are a bottom five team. 

[OccamsRazor]

13 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

Farabee, Frost,Tippett,Brink,Foerester and the addition of Michkov

 

Reinforcements will be coming........................soon....

 

 

[radoran]

1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

Reinforcements will be coming........................soon....

 

Morgan Frost hasn't locked up the 2C - still time in camp!

 

[mojo1917]

On 8/29/2024 at 8:07 AM, RonJeremy said:

Yep, anyone that thinks we will be a better team than last year is dreaming.  We will score more goals even with slight development of Farabee, Frost,Tippett,Brink,Foerester and the addition of Michkov, but the defense is highly suspect, especially the second pair. We expect a career #6-7 guy Seeler to continue to play over his head and a guy, who can't play D and who's been injured for almost three years to play second pair minutes..and as you said, the goaltending is suspect. We are a bottom five team. 

Well dreaming can be more fun than reality.

 

It's not hard to see where the team could actually be better than last season.

It's also not hard to see where the team could be worse.

They could be better but finish lower in the standings. 

I don't have any idea what's going to happen. I think a lot of it depends on the goaltending.

If it's just "good" I think the team will be a little better than last year.

If it's not, well I think Flyer4ever calls that the ace in the hole for getting another top 10 prospect. 

 

A couple of things though. Just because Seeler was not a big name when he came to the Flyers doesn't mean he will always be that player. His advanced metrics from last season are solidly in the middle paring range.  I'm sure Walker had an effect on that, but I'll bet Brad Shaw did too.  Nick played mostly good minutes after Walker left and with all the guys not named York and Sanhiem. Defensemen take longer to develop, it could be that is what we're seeing here. Same thing with Drysdale, he could start to be the player he projected to be as the 6th pick of his draft year.

What I would like to see from him is to stay healthy and be a good 5 v 5 defenseman this season. He is a player whose development can only be described as fukacta. He is a COVID draftee, he was thrown into the NHL when he should have been playing an overage year in juniors. He may bust, but he may just as easily start to realize his potential.

[Howie58]

Well, on the goalie front, we add a PTO youngin if Mr. Kolosov flies the coop or whatever:

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/philadelphia-flyers-sign-young-goalie-225649028.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

 

I'd say this is a signal to Kolosov that the franchise will not roll over from him.  Either that, or someone sees a diamond in the rough.  

[mojo1917]

6 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

I'd say this is a signal to Kolosov that the franchise will not roll over from him.

I don't view it as an indictment of the franchise the way nearly everyone else does. 

 

Alexi signed a contract, they allowed him a year on loan to Dynamo Minsk with the understanding that he'd be coming over this season.

Just because he's a decent KHL goalie shouldn't change his responsibility to live up to his end. 

I've had to honor all the contracts I've signed.

 

I know this is not the usual opinion around here, but if the kid doesn't want to play here or (Allentown) fine.

Find someone who does. 

[Howie58]

21 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I don't view it as an indictment of the franchise the way nearly everyone else does. 

 

Alexi signed a contract, they allowed him a year on loan to Dynamo Minsk with the understanding that he'd be coming over this season.

Just because he's a decent KHL goalie shouldn't change his responsibility to live up to his end. 

I've had to honor all the contracts I've signed.

 

I know this is not the usual opinion around here, but if the kid doesn't want to play here or (Allentown) fine.

Find someone who does. 

Mojo:

 

You and I are in agreement.  Kolosov has to play the game by our rules.  If he doesn't uphold his end of the bargain, sayonara.  

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

but if the kid doesn't want to play here or (Allentown) fine.

Find someone who does. 

 

I agree with this 100%...but when it starts happening more than just once, the franchise needs to take a long hard look at why. And I'm pretty sure the why is that the franchise has become a joke. It used to be a place to go cause you wanted to play on a team contending for the cup . Now it's a destination for the Haysees of the league...guys who just want to get paid and don't care about winning.

[mojo1917]

@flyercanuck

 

The timing for Kolosov is bad, especially after ya boy Haysee's- boy -William Gauthier ghosted the team.

 

I don't think there needs to be a huge investigation organizational and soul searching though.

A kid would rather play in his home country than Allentown and the other one acted immaturely because reasons.

Heard chef.

 

What's more plausible? 18 and 19 year olds not really knowing their mind or how to act in an adult world or... the organizational rot from 10 years of meh results has made a team with money, in a big market undesirable, because they've been meh ? 

Anyone with a spit of competitive juices would see this as an opportunity to be the man...like Michkov has.

 

Occam's razor man, and though he's one of my favorites here,  i'm not talking about our buddy in the Cackalac. 

 

 

[GratefulFlyers]

2 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

And I'm pretty sure the why is that the franchise has become a joke. It used to be a place to go cause you wanted to play on a team contending for the cup .

 

But wait - those years "contending for the cup" were all b.s. weren't they? According to you they were forever "going for it," heads up their ass w/out a clue, the only strategy catch lightning in a bottle etc. Weren't those the joke years? Honestly I thought that was your main gripe all along, which I'm not ridiculing (despite the confrontational tone; no offense). On the contrary I know you have a point, one that's undeniable imho during the Clarke/Holmgren years.

 

As for being a joke now I dunno. I have no insider info I can't really judge the situation. Prospects walking away is not a good look but the devil's in the details; it may be all smoke no fire.

 

Is Lappy the terrible coach - ? one of the regulars here ? - always says he is? Maybe but I see improvement in player development since Jones/Briere. How much is attributable to clearing out Fletcher and his fkups? How much is the Tortorella Effect, pushing his younger players ("over the edge" is another conversation)? The Flyers reorganized the PD department a couple summers back so who knows. Younger players are improving again year over year; they're not stagnating (or worse) the way they were before.

 

Who knows what this "New Era Of Orange" is all about? We do know (and you've been the most vocal about) what it's not. I fall in the middle somewhere, doubting Jones/Briere are Wonder Boys taking the organization in a Brand New Direction but not despairing they won't tear it all down to the rafters.

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, GratefulFlyers said:

I fall in the middle somewhere, doubting Jones/Briere are Wonder Boys taking the organization in a Brand New Direction but not despairing they won't tear it all down to the rafters.

 

I agree with you here, other than the latter part. Because if they won't tear it down, they aren't getting Michkovs fall in their lap every draft (though Buium did, and they dropped the ball) and lets face it, when you have a team of hard working lunch pailers playing 4 best of 7s against superstars, it doesn't end well. There's a reason the Flyers have lost 6 straight Stanley Cup finals...because the other team had the superstars. Philly has had some really good players, but the other team always has the guy who can take it to levels no one on the Flyers can. 

 

And if you're not willing to do what it takes to get those guys, you can maybe have a couple of nice runs, but you're not winning it all. If hockey was a 1 game thing like football, there'd be a chance. But it's best of 7s and talent shows in that.

[radoran]

5 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

when it starts happening more than just once,

 

If there were any similarity between the Gauthier and Kolosov situations I might agree with you.

 

Gauthier is a spoiled brat who didn't like how they treated a BC "legend" and Kolosov is a non-English speaker who's not comfortable being in Allentown making $80,000 while not even being allowed to compete for the NHL.

 

I don't think the franchise is a "joke" in either situation, the first being the one that your boy Haysey out the door and the second being a 22yo who can make more money and get better playing time in his native country.

 

I don't blame Kolosov at all, actually.

[flyercanuck]

11 hours ago, radoran said:

 

If there were any similarity between the Gauthier and Kolosov situations I might agree with you.

 

Gauthier is a spoiled brat who didn't like how they treated a BC "legend" and Kolosov is a non-English speaker who's not comfortable being in Allentown making $80,000 while not even being allowed to compete for the NHL.

 

I don't think the franchise is a "joke" in either situation, the first being the one that your boy Haysey out the door and the second being a 22yo who can make more money and get better playing time in his native country.

 

I don't blame Kolosov at all, actually.

 

The joke isn't one or two instances that have recently happened. The joke is the constant "Flyer way" that obviously doesn't work. The joke is that the team never goes anywhere anymore. Barely a playoff team. Barely misses the playoffs. There's your journey. Come embrace it. We are ONE GM away from giving the reigns to Chuck Fletcher. We have a dinosaur for a coach. We constantly sign players we should trade, and trade for players we should never sign. We're now scared to draft players if they have a certain agent. We hire GMs only if they have "ex-Flyer" as the #1 criteria. Or son of Bob Clarkes buddy. We've been "retooling" for over a decade, and still don't have a #1 centre, a #1 defenceman, or a #1 goalie. Amazing. Not saying anything you don't already know.

 

I don't blame Kolosov because of how he was treated. Now lets see if Michkov has to learn how to block shots before he's allowed to score.

Edited August 31 by flyercanuck

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

15 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

But wait - those years "contending for the cup" were all b.s. weren't they? According to you they were forever "going for it," heads up their ass w/out a clue, the only strategy catch lightning in a bottle etc. Weren't those the joke years? Honestly I thought that was your main gripe all along, which I'm not ridiculing (despite the confrontational tone; no offense). On the contrary I know you have a point, one that's undeniable imho during the Clarke/Holmgren years.

 

As for being a joke now I dunno. I have no insider info I can't really judge the situation. Prospects walking away is not a good look but the devil's in the details; it may be all smoke no fire.

 

Is Lappy the terrible coach - ? one of the regulars here ? - always says he is? Maybe but I see improvement in player development since Jones/Briere. How much is attributable to clearing out Fletcher and his fkups? How much is the Tortorella Effect, pushing his younger players ("over the edge" is another conversation)? The Flyers reorganized the PD department a couple summers back so who knows. Younger players are improving again year over year; they're not stagnating (or worse) the way they were before.

 

Who knows what this "New Era Of Orange" is all about? We do know (and you've been the most vocal about) what it's not. I fall in the middle somewhere, doubting Jones/Briere are Wonder Boys taking the organization in a Brand New Direction but not despairing they won't tear it all down to the rafters.

I'll answer the Laperriere question. He's horrid. Absolutely horrid. He has no business being a head coach, especially in a league that is all about player development. What's scary is listening to this management group actually praising Laperriere for the job he's done. They need to be thanking Jason Smith for the work HE'S done getting these kids on track. The fact he's been extended should be alarm bells for everyone that this franchise still doesn't get it. Player and skill development matter. Instead, were witnessed a coach who is finding players who fit the system best, not who has the best actual talent that can be harnessed and turned into something.