CoachX Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 (edited) 6 hours ago, flyercanuck said: On a team that was built around Kevin Hayes, Tony Deangelo, Rasmus Ristolainen, JVR, Keith Yandle (just think, those guys were picked 24th overall, 19th, 8th, 2nd..... it's a wonder they never led us to a 1st overall) how you chose Scott Laughton to hate is... I hate all those other guys too. Maybe more. The difference is most on this forum also hate those guys, but they act like Laughton is Jon Sims equal, but in reality imagine how you might react if I started praising Risto like he was as valuable to the team as Kimmo Timonen once was Edited July 12 by CoachX 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 12 hours ago, mojo1917 said: Did you listen to the opinions in the link? I'm not the person insisting on keeping him. I provided a link to a podcast with a reporter whose conversations with the management inform his opinion. You'll have to ask Charlie and Bill why they think this way. Laughton is a decent NHL player, not the bum you make him out to be. He's versatile and still effective in his ombudsman role. The management thinks he's worth more to the team than just his on ice contributions. Which are fine. They're around him, they must see the benefits he provides frequently. Although I don’t like SL one bit, I never said he was, nor do I think, he’s a bum. I agree he is a decent player. And I acknowledge he’s affordable. My argument is now, as it always was, that he is overhyped by Flyer management and fans. If we actually had better player options, I doubt he would be so highly regarded as for those other people opinions you mentioned, I’m not interested. I’m fine debating with you, you’re probably smarter than them anyway. It’s also too much work to pay attention anymore than i already do. It makes my brain hurt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 36 minutes ago, SCFlyguy said: So where is all this talent that is supposedly going to make this team good? It’s not on the Phantoms. Simple. wait for the cap to rise and overpay for an aging superstar with maybe two good seasons left… then hire said superstar to a management position after the buy out 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 1 hour ago, CoachX said: I hate all those other guys too. Maybe more. The difference is most on this forum also hate those guys, but they act like Laughton is Jon Sims equal, but in reality imagine how you might react if I started praising Risto like he was as valuable to the team as Kimmo Timonen once was But the difference is, Laughton isn't an idiot, can play hockey, and makes pretty much the going rate of a player his calibre. Risto IS an idiot, can't play hockey, and is overpaid. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 1 hour ago, CoachX said: Simple. wait for the cap to rise and overpay for an aging superstar with maybe two good seasons left… then hire said superstar to a management position after the buy out 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 6 hours ago, flyercanuck said: But the difference is, Laughton isn't an idiot, can play hockey, and makes pretty much the going rate of a player his calibre. Risto IS an idiot, can't play hockey, and is overpaid. Exactly. But I’ve heard more than one person in this forum argue that Risto was the best defenseman, or most improved on the team last season. If they started arguing that he could develop into a number 1, there would be mass head explosions Laughton is a bottom six grinder who knocks in 10 goals a year, is paid cheaply and goes about his business. But people in this forum say that makes him worthy of being a Captain, and now mentor to a supposed young phenom from Russia. I still don’t who this magic locker room skill SL possesses has helped. But hey, it’s just one guys opinion 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 29 minutes ago, CoachX said: Exactly. But I’ve heard more than one person in this forum argue that Risto was the best defenseman, or most improved on the team last season. If they started arguing that he could develop into a number 1, there would be mass head explosions Did he improve ..perhaps (after all Torts is the master of making water bleed from a rock..so yeah Risto probably did improve)... can he develop into a #1 ...that ship has sailed. I never liked the trade and if you can move him...move him...but that contract is what sadly is keeping him a Flyer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 (edited) @pilldoc I’m not arguing he is or isn’t. I accept your POV fully. I really doesn’t matter to me if he stays or goes, he’s not part of any long term plan they pretend to have. I was just using him as an example for my deranged Laughton hatred/obession Edited July 13 by CoachX 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 11 hours ago, SCFlyguy said: And yet the Phantoms are just as mid-tier (at best) in the AHL as the Flyers in the NHL! So where is all this talent that is supposedly going to make this team good? It’s not on the Phantoms. The Phantoms are not good. Their AHL vets are pretty mid. We've all spoken to the idea that Laperrierre is not the best person to develop talent. He hasn't been terrible, but no one has him on a short list to become an NHL coach either, and he is a true "hockey-man". Where is the talent coming from ? Well, the one thing Fletcher and Flahr did begin to do was draft kids with an elite skill. They changed the mind-set from picking the 200ft character-guy over dudes with elite shots or speed. Ol' Foerster has an elite shot. Tamouolla has elite speed and a wicked release. Jett Luchenko has elite speed and ++ hockey iq. So the talent would have to come in large part from the guys drafted since 2021. They would need to develop their all-around games or work on their weaknesses. But these guys already do have areas where they're better than league average. In some cases significantly so. It's not completely making a silk purse from a sow' ear, more like a coach bag from good leather. As for the defense. Maybe there isn't a Victor Hedman in the group. But I look at the players and prospects and think maybe 3 "2"s and a couple of "3" s could be effective. Florida just won with two really good mobile pairings and a 3rd that held it's own. Looking at the 'cats D TOI there wasn't a guy out there 26 minutes a night. And surprisingly, the #1 overall wasn't the guy with the most ice time. (It was Forsling) a waivers claim. The "other" guy to play with Michkov may have to come in a trade or an F/A signing. Maybe good or popular players will be sent away. You have to give to get. But I don't see the Flyers situation as being completely without reasonable hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 8 hours ago, CoachX said: Exactly. But I’ve heard more than one person in this forum argue that Risto was the best defenseman, or most improved on the team last season. If they started arguing that he could develop into a number 1, there would be mass head explosions Theres a big difference between best defenceman, and most improved. When you play as horribly as Risto did, you can easily improve by just not being a complete idiot. Still an idiot...just not a complete idiot. 8 hours ago, CoachX said: Laughton is a bottom six grinder who knocks in 10 goals a year, is paid cheaply and goes about his business. But people in this forum say that makes him worthy of being a Captain, and now mentor to a supposed young phenom from Russia. I still don’t who this magic locker room skill SL possesses has helped. But hey, it’s just one guys opinion I'm pretty sure the captain thing was just yankin' your chain. I have no problem with him wearing an "A" because he comes out to play every game, sticks up for teammates, works hard etc. But if Laughton is your captain, you're in desperate need of talent. Actually, he could be our captain couldn't he? I think he's a valuable asset because you can plug him in up and down the lineup in a pinch. Not anyone can do that. I'd also trade him for the right price in a heartbeat. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 6 hours ago, mojo1917 said: The Phantoms are not good. Their AHL vets are pretty mid. We've all spoken to the idea that Laperrierre is not the best person to develop talent. He hasn't been terrible, but no one has him on a short list to become an NHL coach either, and he is a true "hockey-man". Where is the talent coming from ? Well, the one thing Fletcher and Flahr did begin to do was draft kids with an elite skill. They changed the mind-set from picking the 200ft character-guy over dudes with elite shots or speed. Ol' Foerster has an elite shot. Tamouolla has elite speed and a wicked release. Jett Luchenko has elite speed and ++ hockey iq. Sanheim and Konecny weren't drafted by Fletcher and Flahr and are STILL our two best players at their positions and both skate as well as anyone. Foerster was a talented player who fell because of his skating, and corrected it before the Flyers got ahold of him. Tuomaala is a 21 year old 15 goal AHLer...and Fletchers top pick that year. Wow! This is how far this franchise has fallen. Chicago has an 18 year old who scored more than that in the NHL. Luchanko is a good player and likely a good #2 centre when all is said and done. Zach Hyman just scored 54 goals as a 32 year old because of one reason. That's what elite can do. If Hyman played for Philly he'd likely be a 20 goal scorer. Maybe. 6 hours ago, mojo1917 said: So the talent would have to come in large part from the guys drafted since 2021. They would need to develop their all-around games or work on their weaknesses. But these guys already do have areas where they're better than league average. In some cases significantly so. It's not completely making a silk purse from a sow' ear, more like a coach bag from good leather. As for the defense. Maybe there isn't a Victor Hedman in the group. But I look at the players and prospects and think maybe 3 "2"s and a couple of "3" s could be effective. Florida just won with two really good mobile pairings and a 3rd that held it's own. Looking at the 'cats D TOI there wasn't a guy out there 26 minutes a night. And surprisingly, the #1 overall wasn't the guy with the most ice time. (It was Forsling) a waivers claim. Ristolainen has everything you want in an NHL defenceman, except one thing. That's why he went 8th overall. But you can't teach brains. And that's why he's not very good. Our prospect pool is ranked in the bottom 3rd of the NHL, and the only reason it isn't near the very bottom is because one player fell to us after Fletcher was fired. That's how good of a job Fletcher and Flahr have done. 6 hours ago, mojo1917 said: The "other" guy to play with Michkov may have to come in a trade or an F/A signing. Maybe good or popular players will be sent away. You have to give to get. But I don't see the Flyers situation as being completely without reasonable hope. I would trade anyone for the right price. Including Michkov. There certainly is hope for the Flyers being a playoff team. If that's the goal. But for a team that's been as bad as Philly has for as long as they have, to not have a single #1 player at any of the top 3 positions says a lot about our drafting and developing. And if the goal is to win a cup....not with what they have on the team or in the pipeline they aren't. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 9 hours ago, CoachX said: @pilldoc I’m not arguing he is or isn’t. I accept your POV fully. I really doesn’t matter to me if he stays or goes, he’s not part of any long term plan they pretend to have. I was just using him as an example for my deranged Laughton hatred/obession Absolutely agree with your premise. I was just saying he "probably" did improve a bit defensively. Agree he should not be regarded as par of a long term plan. I was just pointing out that due to his contract ... he will be incredibly hard to move. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCFlyguy Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 9 hours ago, mojo1917 said: Ol' Foerster has an elite shot. Tamouolla has elite speed and a wicked release. Jett Luchenko has elite speed and ++ hockey iq. If all three of these guys reach their predraft expectations, they will be mid. If they do not, they won't be in the NHL. These guys would be a dime a dozen in an organization with a deep prospect pool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 (edited) 4 hours ago, flyercanuck said: Our prospect pool is ranked in the bottom 3rd of the NHL, and the only reason it isn't near the very bottom is because one player fell to us after Fletcher was fired. That's how good of a job Fletcher and Flahr have done. Fine everything sucks and if you ain't first you're last. Noted The fact I'm pointing to is, the draft philosophy changed. It changed during Fletcher's tenure. Looking for and picking kids with something elite in their skill set continues today. Nowhere did I say Chuck was unfairly maligned and should still be running the team, because Harvard! I'm certain you don't need to rehash his failures for my benefit- i lived it too. @SCFlyguy When you talk about good prospect pools, do you mean like the Hextall era when the Flyers were consistently in the top 10 for 3-4 years? Nothing is guaranteed. A lot of those can't misses are working at Sinclair and Tim Horton's. The rankings of 18 year old boys are inexact at best. The draft philosophy has changed. I think we will start to notice the results of this as these kids mature. Edited July 13 by mojo1917 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 3 hours ago, pilldoc said: Absolutely agree with your premise. I was just saying he "probably" did improve a bit defensively. Agree he should not be regarded as par of a long term plan. I was just pointing out that due to his contract ... he will be incredibly hard to move. I’m of the opinion that if Risto has a good first half, with improvement, he could be dealt at the deadline, regardless of his contract 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 3 minutes ago, CoachX said: I’m of the opinion that if Risto has a good first half, with improvement, he could be dealt at the deadline, regardless of his contract ' I hope you are right ...... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 1 hour ago, CoachX said: I’m of the opinion that if Risto has a good first half, with improvement, he could be dealt at the deadline, regardless of his contract 1 hour ago, pilldoc said: ' I hope you are right ...... Yeah, add me to the list. To me, the "if proposition here is unlikely, but add me to the "hopeful" list. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 3 hours ago, mojo1917 said: Fine everything sucks and if you ain't first you're last. Noted The fact I'm pointing to is, the draft philosophy changed. It changed during Fletcher's tenure. Looking for and picking kids with something elite in their skill set continues today. Nowhere did I say Chuck was unfairly maligned and should still be running the team, because Harvard! I'm certain you don't need to rehash his failures for my benefit- i lived it too. @SCFlyguy When you talk about good prospect pools, do you mean like the Hextall era when the Flyers were consistently in the top 10 for 3-4 years? Nothing is guaranteed. A lot of those can't misses are working at Sinclair and Tim Horton's. The rankings of 18 year old boys are inexact at best. The draft philosophy has changed. I think we will start to notice the results of this as these kids mature. Ok, so tell me the big difference between the drafting philosophy of say, taking Sanheim (17th) and Konecny (24th), and taking York (14th) and Foerster (23rd). I don't see a huge difference in skill, and if anything the former are likely the more skilled over the latter, though Foerster certainly has the better shot. Provorov led the league (tied) in goals one year. Farabee looked like a pretty good pick at one tim but Tortsie clearly hates him. Fletchers other gems are Brink, Andrae, Tuommala...I'm not seeing a whole lot of elite there...and of course Gauthier, who clearly has elite skill but was taken 5th overall where I've been saying we should be drafting all along! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 @flyercanuck Well i do think in the first round- those kids are "more complete". This year's draft the first round skill kind of ended at #15. So from pick 20 and after the players available would have 2nd round grades. I think the philosophy I'm talking about will benefit the team by having a higher percentage of later round picks contribute Ol' Foerster was a first pick, but he was picked in a weird year where guys couldn't really play or be scouted due to COVID-19. So they took a swing on him based on his shot and frame. That is different from the traditional Flyers thinking. I'll add Gauthier hasn't done anything in the NHL yet. He could just as easily wind up as a Ryan Poehling as a Peter Foresberg. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerdog Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 Laughton is a good player for what he does, but not for where he was drafted, but then the 2012 draft was pretty weak it seems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCFlyguy Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 6 hours ago, mojo1917 said: When you talk about good prospect pools, do you mean like the Hextall era when the Flyers were consistently in the top 10 for 3-4 years? I don't recall them being that highly ranked for that long. Maybe they were in the top 10 for a year or two, but I could be wrong. But even if it is true, isn't this making my argument for me? They had a better ranked prospect pool and still didn't get the job done. They needed more and better prospects, no? How do you propose to get them? Or you think we have enough? Or you hope we have enough and don't want to pay the price to get more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 (edited) 1 hour ago, SCFlyguy said: I don't recall them being that highly ranked for that long. Maybe they were in the top 10 for a year or two, but I could be wrong. But even if it is true, isn't this making my argument for me? They had a better ranked prospect pool and still didn't get the job done. They needed more and better prospects, no? How do you propose to get them? Or you think we have enough? Or you hope we have enough and don't want to pay the price to get more? I feel like everyone of us has been paying a price for a couple of years now. You been enjoying the end of the seasons recently? At least last season's team was frisky and fun to watch for a stretch. I don't see where this team has improved over last season. There are lots of 1st and 2nd picks in a better/deeper draft . Who on the NHL club is going to improve? Who is going to stall? Goaltending? Michkov is he more Ovechkin or Zherdev? There are a lot more questions than answers at least for me. The team over-achieved last season. That outcome is unlikely to repeat. We are being treated to the worst version of this club the management can stomach. Yet somehow, many here refuse to accept they are getting what they've been asking for. At least the Comcast Spectacor version of it. The talent is coming from the next draft, maybe some is in the system from the last 2 drafts. Maybe theyre horrible for 5 more years. I don't see playoffs or title contention in this roster. Edited July 13 by mojo1917 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 2 hours ago, flyerdog said: Laughton is a good player for what he does, but not for where he was drafted, but then the 2012 draft was pretty weak it seems. I agree the 2012 draft wasn't awesome. There were many "Laughtons" in that class. He was picked 20th. He's been an NHL player for 9 seasons. I'd say that is a successful draft pick. Better than Nail Yakupov, that's certain. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 26 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: I feel like everyone of us has been paying a price for a couple of years now. You been enjoying the end of the seasons recently? At least last season's team was frisky and fun to watch for a stretch. Yep. And I have the solution…. Stop watching. It works. I’m still a Flyers fan. I still have the fond memories of another time. And now I feel like, even though they don’t care, that I’m rebelling against Flyers management. They get nothing from me. I don’t have to take their crap and put up with their mediocre attempts to run a higher Cheyenne franchise. I did the same thing with the Phillies for a long time. When they got their **** together, I tuned back and I’m totally invested, and happy i just don’t have to endure the stress 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheesesteak Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 6 hours ago, mojo1917 said: I feel like everyone of us has been paying a price for a couple of years now. You been enjoying the end of the seasons recently? At least last season's team was frisky and fun to watch for a stretch. I don't see where this team has improved over last season. There are lots of 1st and 2nd picks in a better/deeper draft . Who on the NHL club is going to improve? Who is going to stall? Goaltending? Michkov is he more Ovechkin or Zherdev? There are a lot more questions than answers at least for me. The team over-achieved last season. That outcome is unlikely to repeat. We are being treated to the worst version of this club the management can stomach. Yet somehow, many here refuse to accept they are getting what they've been asking for. At least the Comcast Spectacor version of it. The talent is coming from the next draft, maybe some is in the system from the last 2 drafts. Maybe theyre horrible for 5 more years. I don't see playoffs or title contention in this roster. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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