RonJeremy Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 It's gonna take a few years to see if Briere is a good GM or not, but here is a few things we use to gauge if he is another Hextall. We chose Gauthier over Jiricek, we had no way of knowing Gauthier would not want to play in Philly but even if Gauthier stayed, we have to see who turns out to be the better player to know which was the right pick. Danny chose Michkov which according to most experts was a great pick. He chose Oliver Bonk over Gabe Perrault, who was considered a better prospect. He went against the general consensus and picked Luchenko over Helenius and Buim who were rated much higher. So in several cases we went against the draft experts and reached a little. Now we have to see if its better to go with the consensus or if the Flyers scouts/GM are geniuses. If Buim turns into Brian Leetch and Luchenko turns into Tom Gorence , all speed and no hands,then we know the answer. I recall two past instances where we reached and picked a guy way earlier than he was rated, that was Forsbeg and Morin. One was a star the other a flop, so only time will tell. Briere also made one big hockey trade, Gauthier for Drysdale, his hands were somewhat tied and he traded for an injury prone one dimensional defensemen. I hope Drysdale develops into a top three dman and puts up big points but I have doubts .So within three years we will know if Briere was the right guy for the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 10 minutes ago, RonJeremy said: I recall two past instances where we reached and picked a guy way earlier than he was rated, that was Forsbeg and Morin. One was a star the other a flop, so only time will tell. Don't forget Jay O'Brien. Hextall 2018 (it's six years already!!!). That turned out wonderfully. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonJeremy Posted July 11 Author Share Posted July 11 (edited) 7 minutes ago, ruxpin said: Don't forget Jay O'Brien. Hextall 2018 (it's six years already!!!). That turned out wonderfully. Right forgot that one. The thing that scares me is ,90% of the time when a team reaches in the draft, it's a complete failure. The Flyers are also not known for making the greatest picks either. So did a rookie GM know better than all the scouts and hockey experts. Edited July 11 by RonJeremy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkscrewy Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 7 minutes ago, ruxpin said: Don't forget Jay O'Brien. Who 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonJeremy Posted July 11 Author Share Posted July 11 11 minutes ago, ruxpin said: Don't forget Jay O'Brien. Hextall 2018 (it's six years already!!!). That turned out wonderfully. Hes a late bloomer. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 25 minutes ago, ruxpin said: That turned out wonderfully. Got them a second in the last draft. Big difference is that they've already signed Jett Luchadore. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 1 hour ago, RonJeremy said: It's gonna take a few years to see if Briere is a good GM or not, but here is a few things we use to gauge if he is another Hextall. We chose Gauthier over Jiricek, we had no way of knowing Gauthier would not want to play in Philly but even if Gauthier stayed, we have to see who turns out to be the better player to know which was the right pick. Danny chose Michkov which according to most experts was a great pick. He chose Oliver Bonk over Gabe Perrault, who was considered a better prospect. He went against the general consensus and picked Luchenko over Helenius and Buim who were rated much higher. So in several cases we went against the draft experts and reached a little. Now we have to see if its better to go with the consensus or if the Flyers scouts/GM are geniuses. If Buim turns into Brian Leetch and Luchenko turns into Tom Gorence , all speed and no hands,then we know the answer. I recall two past instances where we reached and picked a guy way earlier than he was rated, that was Forsbeg and Morin. One was a star the other a flop, so only time will tell. Briere also made one big hockey trade, Gauthier for Drysdale, his hands were somewhat tied and he traded for an injury prone one dimensional defensemen. I hope Drysdale develops into a top three dman and puts up big points but I have doubts .So within three years we will know if Briere was the right guy for the job. Time of course will tell... Taking a winger over a potential #1 defenceman isn't a great move in my opinion...especially when the winger turns out to be a spoiled brat. Michkov wasn't a great pick..he was a complete no-brainer who should have went 2nd overall but Putins war scared everyone else off. Bonk over Pearrault...also over Cowan, who's looking pretty damn good as a Leaf pick. How they missed him, when they were scouting Barkey AND BONK on the same team as him?!? I like Luchanko, but I'm not too confident he ends up better than Buium and Helenius. I don't think Philly reached on Forsberg...I thought he fell in that draft due to his military commitment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonJeremy Posted July 11 Author Share Posted July 11 14 minutes ago, flyercanuck said: Time of course will tell... Taking a winger over a potential #1 defenceman isn't a great move in my opinion...especially when the winger turns out to be a spoiled brat. Michkov wasn't a great pick..he was a complete no-brainer who should have went 2nd overall but Putins war scared everyone else off. Bonk over Pearrault...also over Cowan, who's looking pretty damn good as a Leaf pick. How they missed him, when they were scouting Barkey AND BONK on the same team as him?!? I like Luchanko, but I'm not too confident he ends up better than Buium and Helenius. I don't think Philly reached on Forsberg...I thought he fell in that draft due to his military commitment. So from the looks of it Briere will be fired in five years and the rebuild will begin. Is this groundhog day? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 21 minutes ago, RonJeremy said: So from the looks of it Briere will be fired in five years and the rebuild will begin. Is this groundhog day? He's been pretty clear that this is a longer term process from his perspective. They didn't "expect" Michkov for another two years. The Luchadore pick is another one expected to blossom in 2-3 years. They're actually letting picks play in lower leagues rather than insisting everyone is an immediate impact NHLer. They are in significant cap hell, much as they were when Hextall took over. They've got $7.5M in buyout/retained cap space plus $3.85M buried in the NHL next season AND the Two Ryans on board for another $10.25M. A lot of that clears out over the next two seasons. Ellis in three. If they avoid "spending to the cap" as a matter of habit, they should be able to bank some space to get a significant FA (as one becomes available) in 26-27. If that turns out to be another JVR, they're screwed again. But, yeah, this isn't "turning around" in the next few seasons. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonJeremy Posted July 11 Author Share Posted July 11 2 minutes ago, radoran said: He's been pretty clear that this is a longer term process from his perspective. They didn't "expect" Michkov for another two years. The Luchadore pick is another one expected to blossom in 2-3 years. They're actually letting picks play in lower leagues rather than insisting everyone is an immediate impact NHLer. They are in significant cap hell, much as they were when Hextall took over. They've got $7.5M in buyout/retained cap space plus $3.85M buried in the NHL next season AND the Two Ryans on board for another $10.25M. A lot of that clears out over the next two seasons. Ellis in three. If they avoid "spending to the cap" as a matter of habit, they should be able to bank some space to get a significant FA (as one becomes available) in 26-27. If that turns out to be another JVR, they're screwed again. But, yeah, this isn't "turning around" in the next few seasons. I'm all for doing it right and I'd rather totally suck for 3-4 more years and do it right, than be mediocre and have to rebuild again in five years. The thing is, if we don't hit big on these past 2 drafts and the next we are pretty much F'd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer4ever Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 Maybe these picks were all perfect picks for the Philly Dysfunctions, in order to remain less than mediocre and irrelevent, which its seems is where they long to be. Hard to think otherwise after 14 years of the same stupid, arrogant, stubborn management. Briere has a lot of work to do to prove me wrong. So far he is more of the same . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mojo1917 Posted July 11 Popular Post Share Posted July 11 (edited) I don't think I've seen a big bone-head move yet. He hasn't traded Laughton- is that it? Since Michkov is here early, Scott may not get traded because of his role in the locker room. I heard a very interesting take about this on PHLY yesterday. Michkov isn't easy and Laughton is the guy everyone can relate to, he may never leave and if his presence helps Michkov not kill Travis Sanhiem because he flubbed a set up. That's a win. The Laughton discussion is around 13:00 in. There hasn't been a shell of Vinnie Lecalivaier signing, there wasn't a JvR for Luke Schenn trade. So far, he'd drafted okay. I mean we won't know for a while. As Rad says they aren't forcing anyone into the NHL before they're ready. He's signed a couple of low-cost dudes to make the team more fun to watch. I don't see where Danny is failing, or more of the same. Okay, he didn't go scorched earth to move up to #4 is that the failing? He couldn't move back to 16 and take Luchenko because teams at 14 and 15 were reportedly interested. So he took a guy 4 or 5 spots early? Yep, every bit as bad as Fletcher. He has done no harm, gathered assets; I would call 6 picks in the top 64 next year significant. But, no they're arrogant and same old same old. Edited July 11 by mojo1917 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer4ever Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 11 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: I don't think I've seen a big bone-head move yet. He hasn't traded Laughton- is that it? Since Michkov is here early, Scott may not get traded because of his role in the locker room. I heard a very interesting take about this on PHLY yesterday. Michkov isn't easy and Laughton is the guy everyone can relate to, he may never leave and if he's presence helps Michkov not kill Travis Sanhiem because he flubbed a set up. That's a win. The Laughton discussion is around 13:00 in. There hasn't been a shell of Vinnie Lecalivaier signing, there wasn't a JvR for Luke Schenn trade. So far, he'd drafted okay. I mean we won't know for a while. As Rad says they aren't forcing anyone into the NHL before they're ready. He's signed a couple of low-cost dudes to make the team more fun to watch. I don't see where Danny is failing, or more of the same. Okay, he didn't go scorched earth to move up to #4 is that the failing? He couldn't move back to 16 and take Luchenko because teams at 14 and 15 were reportedly interested. So he took a guy 4 or 5 spots early? Yep, every bit as bad as Fletcher. He has done no harm, gathered assets; I would call 6 picks in the top 64 next year significant. But, no they're arrogant and same old same old. More of the same to me is everything you just said, from a different perspective. There is no Stanley Cup tournament success in my lifetime with this approach. This draft and the next two are potential cup winners. They get an F in this draft by not moving down the standings and up in the draft. The pieces on the current roster are not Cup winning pieces. The Flyer way of trying to remain just outside the playoffs and hitting a miracle drafting 12th is a fools errand, and the longer they stay in that mindset we will just continue to see what we have seen for the past 14 years. Draft picks in the late 20's are not foundational pieces, unless the Calder Cup is the goal, so respectfully, 6 in the top 64 is meh, unless he can package and move into top 5. I have seen this film before, it starred Ron Hextall. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 (edited) 2 hours ago, flyer4ever said: I have seen this film before, it starred Ron Hextall. Hextall drafted poorly, and maybe add to that, didn't have any kind of player development plan. It didn't work. That's true. His #2 pick was bust. His Top 10 defenseman was probably rushed to the league. He had bad luck and made some bad choices. It's difficult for me to say the plan was flawed because it was executed poorly. I 100% agree that the team over-achieving last year didn't help matters. But you can't tell players not to play. I am also of the opinion, the lack of any kind of action this year, makes the next two more important and decreases the margin for error significantly. If some guys on the team take steps forward and a few hockey trades are made, the team could be set up nicely in 2-3 years. But everything has to go "right" or at least mostly right. Edited July 11 by mojo1917 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 2 hours ago, radoran said: But, yeah, this isn't "turning around" in the next few seasons. Right....which is the reason it's the perfect time to go for some top end talent in the draft. Three years away from being able to start to add free agents (remember, this isn't the old Flyers that contended all the time and lots of players wanted to play there...it's now one of the league jokes). And you'll have other teams who want those players as well...so as we all know...highest bidder. Not a great way to "build". It's fine for adding a piece. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 9 minutes ago, flyercanuck said: Right....which is the reason it's the perfect time to go for some top end talent in the draft. We'll see where they end up, but by all accounts 2025 is a pretty deep draft and they do have six picks in the first two rounds... 10 minutes ago, flyercanuck said: Not a great way to "build". It's fine for adding a piece. And also "who's available"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 (edited) 1 hour ago, radoran said: We'll see where they end up, but by all accounts 2025 is a pretty deep draft and they do have six picks in the first two rounds... And also "who's available"? Well I mentioned about next years crop...mostly over 35 year olds that used to be good (sound familiar?) along with a couple of interesting names in their late 20s that I have no doubt will be re-signed by their present teams. The year after, McDavid and Eichel are up...well presently, and I doubt by then they are....and after that theres pretty much nothing you'd want to build a team around. Haysee? The sequel? Most of the big names are in their mid to late 30s. Not bad if you're missing one piece for a cup run, but pretty lousy way to build a team...unless of course you were mentored by Fletcher and Holmgren. Edited July 11 by flyercanuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 Just now, flyercanuck said: Haysee? #triggered 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 (edited) 10 hours ago, RonJeremy said: It's gonna take a few years to see if Briere is a good GM or not, but here is a few things we use to gauge if he is another Hextall. We chose Gauthier over Jiricek, we had no way of knowing Gauthier would not want to play in Philly but even if Gauthier stayed, we have to see who turns out to be the better player to know which was the right pick. Danny chose Michkov which according to most experts was a great pick. He chose Oliver Bonk over Gabe Perrault, who was considered a better prospect. He went against the general consensus and picked Luchenko over Helenius and Buim who were rated much higher. So in several cases we went against the draft experts and reached a little. Now we have to see if its better to go with the consensus or if the Flyers scouts/GM are geniuses. If Buim turns into Brian Leetch and Luchenko turns into Tom Gorence , all speed and no hands,then we know the answer. I recall two past instances where we reached and picked a guy way earlier than he was rated, that was Forsbeg and Morin. One was a star the other a flop, so only time will tell. Briere also made one big hockey trade, Gauthier for Drysdale, his hands were somewhat tied and he traded for an injury prone one dimensional defensemen. I hope Drysdale develops into a top three dman and puts up big points but I have doubts .So within three years we will know if Briere was the right guy for the job. Danny Briere is a former flyer. Prosecution rests! Edited July 12 by CoachX 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 9 hours ago, mkscrewy said: Who Jay O’Brien. His value reached its peak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 8 hours ago, mojo1917 said: Since Michkov is here early, Scott may not get traded because of his role in the locker room OMFG! I cannot believe the love affair with a player who fits the skill set most in here have openly stated is not the player you need to build a contender during a rebuild who exactly, what player, has actually benefited on ice from the magic locker room power Laughton is inundated with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 10 hours ago, ruxpin said: Don't forget Jay O'Brien. Hextall 2018 (it's six years already!!!). That turned out wonderfully. Full disclosure: i wasn't thrilled with this pick but was in the "he knows what he's doing" camp at the time. I still think he had the right plan but was hamstrung by some dumb luck and Sleestak "advisors" who were brain damaged and held strings. I don't think O'Brien was an example of any of that, though, in retrospect. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 22 minutes ago, CoachX said: OMFG! I cannot believe the love affair with a player who fits the skill set most in here have openly stated is not the player you need to build a contender during a rebuild who exactly, what player, has actually benefited on ice from the magic locker room power Laughton is inundated with? Did you listen to the opinions in the link? I'm not the person insisting on keeping him. I provided a link to a podcast with a reporter whose conversations with the management inform his opinion. You'll have to ask Charlie and Bill why they think this way. Laughton is a decent NHL player, not the bum you make him out to be. He's versatile and still effective in his ombudsman role. The management thinks he's worth more to the team than just his on ice contributions. Which are fine. They're around him, they must see the benefits he provides frequently. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 (edited) 6 hours ago, CoachX said: OMFG! I cannot believe the love affair with a player who fits the skill set most in here have openly stated is not the player you need to build a contender during a rebuild who exactly, what player, has actually benefited on ice from the magic locker room power Laughton is inundated with? On a team that was built around Kevin Hayes, Tony Deangelo, Rasmus Ristolainen, JVR, Keith Yandle (just think, those guys were picked 24th overall, 19th, 8th, 2nd..... it's a wonder they never led us to a 1st overall) how you chose Scott Laughton to hate is... Edited July 12 by flyercanuck 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCFlyguy Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 20 hours ago, flyer4ever said: unless the Calder Cup is the goal They haven’t won a Calder Cup since the first lockout. This is where I have a hard time taking the retool, not rebuild people seriously. The Flyers are not willing to take the pain of a rebuild to get high end talent. So we are supposed to believe they have acquired/will acquire enough mid-tier talent to make them competitive in the next five years. And yet the Phantoms are just as mid-tier (at best) in the AHL as the Flyers in the NHL! So where is all this talent that is supposedly going to make this team good? It’s not on the Phantoms. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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