Flyers are in Retool Mode, Not a Rebuild

[radoran]

3 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

FIFY. Cam may not have kissed enough hairs on the posteriors, of Flyer front office alumni, yet.

 

He kissed the right ones

https://www.nhl.com/flyers/news/flyers-to-buy-out-final-year-of-cam-atkinson-s-contract

 

Quote

The Philadelphia Flyers announced today that they will buy out the remainder of the contract of forward Cam Atkinson, according to General Manager, Daniel Brière.

 

"Cam will always have a place in the Flyers organization, and we wish all the success for him and his family in the future."

 

You come here for two years on a team that can't make the playoffs and have a job for life.

[flyercanuck]

4 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

Have you seen the Flyers organizational depth chart?

The middling reinforcements are already in house.

I think he and Jonesy are going big name hunting when the cap space becomes available.

 

 

 Well I hope the big names aren't Tavares/Benn/Backstrom/Crosby/Burns/Giroux, all in their mid to late 30s. There are some good players at the peak of their prime like Rantanen/Draisaitl (in the unlikelihood they don't re-sign)...the problem with those guys is they'll want a 7 year contract to take them into the sunset, which puts them at 35-36, no doubt at top dollar. Then we're back to where we are now trying to get rid of bad contracts. Those are "one piece away" guys, not "build a team with ".

 

 That's the problem with trying to acquire your stars through free agency, they usually aren't available until their career is about to take a downswing, and they want paid. You get a few years (as opposed to drafting them and having them for their career) . We've all talked about NOT giving Konecny a long term contract because of this, and at 28 he's one of the younger guys coming up next year for free agency (if he did).

Edited July 9 by flyercanuck

[jammer2]

1 hour ago, Podein25 said:

 

Aren't these actually the same thing lol?

My take:

Flyers Rebuild...scrape, claw and fight for every bit of assets/cap space...burn it down till everyone fits the timeline and the cap is a serious weapon. Do not move forward unless it fits...youth/speed/picks.

 

Flyers Retool:

Floating around with a wishy washy attempt to fool fans into thinking the suckage is done. Requires spending to the cap ceiling with guys that don't fit the timeline. Also required...not enough inner strength to admit the pain the fan base has endured and a dash of pride, sprinkled with arrogance. 

[Podein25]

15 minutes ago, jammer2 said:

My take:

Flyers Rebuild...scrape, claw and fight for every bit of assets/cap space...burn it down till everyone fits the timeline and the cap is a serious weapon. Do not move forward unless it fits...youth/speed/picks.

 

Flyers Retool:

Floating around with a wishy washy attempt to fool fans into thinking the suckage is done. Requires spending to the cap ceiling with guys that don't fit the timeline. Also required...not enough inner strength to admit the pain the fan base has endured and a dash of pride, sprinkled with arrogance. 

 

Pretty good take jammer man. Love ya!

[mojo1917]

4 hours ago, jammer2 said:

My take:

Flyers Rebuild...scrape, claw and fight for every bit of assets/cap space...burn it down till everyone fits the timeline and the cap is a serious weapon. Do not move forward unless it fits...youth/speed/picks.

 

Flyers Retool:

Floating around with a wishy washy attempt to fool fans into thinking the suckage is done. Requires spending to the cap ceiling with guys that don't fit the timeline. Also required...not enough inner strength to admit the pain the fan base has endured and a dash of pride, sprinkled with arrogance. 

With all due respect I don't think either of these scenarios are happening. 

 

I do think this year, 24/25 is a low key tank.

I think they like the 25 draft-much more than this past draft.

 

I also think Konecny may not be a done deal. 

 

This is "a" season where not improving the team short term could be pretty good for the medium and longer term.

 

We'll see what happens. 

[OccamsRazor]

44 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

 

I do think this year, 24/25 is a low key tank.

 

To me it will come down to one thing as far as tanking.

 

If Ersson, now seasoned and Fedotov play up to expectations they will drafting 15th and not 12th if not squeak in as a 8th seed.

 

i think this team can be better than last year. But it also be much much worse with a few key injuries.

 

Guess we'll see...

[Howie58]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

To me it will come down to one thing as far as tanking.

 

If Ersson, now seasoned and Fedotov play up to expectations they will drafting 15th and not 12th if not squeak in as a 8th seed.

 

i think this team can be better than last year. But it also be much much worse with a few key injuries.

 

Guess we'll see...

I agree that the goaltending could be up, down, or sidewise.  I wonder if the absence of a surprise factor will hurt.  Nobody will see them as an easy two points, which was probably the case early this past year.  Inter-division competition should ease.  I don't think the Caps, Pitt, or even the Canes will be what they were in prior years.  I'd say they'll be plus or minus 5-7 points from this year.  

[CoachX]

18 hours ago, jammer2 said:

My take:

Flyers Rebuild...scrape, claw and fight for every bit of assets/cap space...burn it down till everyone fits the timeline and the cap is a serious weapon. Do not move forward unless it fits...youth/speed/picks.

 

Flyers Retool:

Floating around with a wishy washy attempt to fool fans into thinking the suckage is done. Requires spending to the cap ceiling with guys that don't fit the timeline. Also required...not enough inner strength to admit the pain the fan base has endured and a dash of pride, sprinkled with arrogance. 

Flyers Retool: put a-s-ses in the seats no

matter what. It’s a business. Protect management careers at the cost of successful on ice product

[RonJeremy]

13 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

To me it will come down to one thing as far as tanking.

 

If Ersson, now seasoned and Fedotov play up to expectations they will drafting 15th and not 12th if not squeak in as a 8th seed.

 

i think this team can be better than last year. But it also be much much worse with a few key injuries.

 

Guess we'll see...

I think we will be better offensively with Michkov and guys like Foerester, Brink ,Tippett, Farabee and Frost hopefully all stepping up a bit.  The problem will be on defense, Walker is gone ,so I expect Seeler to revert to his old self and I don't think we have anyone who is ready to take on second pair minutes. The goaltending is also a question mark. If Coots is shot this team is finishing no better than 7 or 8th from the bottom.

[FD19372]

1 hour ago, RonJeremy said:

I think we will be better offensively with Michkov and guys like Foerester, Brink ,Tippett, Farabee and Frost hopefully all stepping up a bit.  The problem will be on defense, Walker is gone ,so I expect Seeler to revert to his old self and I don't think we have anyone who is ready to take on second pair minutes. The goaltending is also a question mark. If Coots is shot this team is finishing no better than 3rd or 4th from the bottom.

FIFY.

[FD19372]

20 hours ago, jammer2 said:

My take:

Flyers Rebuild...scrape, claw and fight for every bit of assets/cap space...burn it down till everyone fits the timeline and the cap is a serious weapon. Do not move forward unless it fits...youth/speed/picks.

 

Flyers Retool:

Floating around with a wishy washy attempt to fool fans into thinking the suckage is done. Requires spending to the cap ceiling with guys that don't fit the timeline. Also required...not enough inner strength to admit the pain the fan base has endured and a dash of pride, sprinkled with arrogance. 

Sponsored, endorsed and funded by Comcast Corp., who really don't care about the fans like me that really want to see the Flyers win a Cup again, before we die. They've become corporate ignoramuses and an Alumni Rewards Program.. and it's why I don't take them seriously, though I'll technically still root for them. I've decided to invest my fandom in teams, that realistically have a chance to win it all and are open-minded in their approach toward attempting to win. The Flyers *organization, is indeed way too arrogant. I will always be a Flyers fan, but I don't take them seriously because I know their "business model". Their now too corporate franchise, slapped me in the face, and I won't waste my time with them.

[RonJeremy]

27 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

FIFY.

Even better...

[Lindbergh31]

On 7/8/2024 at 12:21 PM, mojo1917 said:

That's your opinion. I understand it's shared by many others. That's alright by me, I like everyone here well enough to acknowledge that opinion.

I hate losing.

More than I like winning. I ****** hate losing.  I hate that I've seen other teams I've rooted for try the tear down only to be; not just mediocre, but terrible for decades in the Sixers case almost a decade.

With my baseball team, there was a glimpse of some competence in the early twenty teens, but those guys weren't beating anyone, they were just not as terrible as the scrubs that came before and that they were then turned into when it was determined the team needed to tank, again. 30 years of ********. 

Dipping into the losing column occasionally is natural, but it guarantees nothing. 

 

I will stand by my statement that the Penguins being gifted Crosby after disgracefully jettisoning anyone that didn't have a 2nd job to get Lemieux has convinced this fanbase there's only one way to win.

In any team atmosphere there are cycles of success and cycles where there is room for improvement. The good teams figure out ways to minimize those lean times, or use them to modify their practices. 

Creating a false cycle of failure doesn't sit well with me. It never will. 

 

 

What sucks is the Flyers had a homegrown goalie since Lindbergh to build around (Hart) and he decides to do something really stupid that basically ****ed his NHL career and the Flyers are back to square one. I was hoping Briere was going to trade Konecny and Laughton at the draft but that didn't happen. It's disheartening that this organization is truly afraid of tearing it down to the studs and rebuilding. They rather rinse, recycle and repeat the same process. Being a fan since 1972, I highly doubt I'll see another Stanley Cup win before I die but I guess the only saving grace is it could be worse, I could have cheered for the Toronto Maple Leafs instead. Well Briere has 3 first round picks for the 2025 draft, hopefully the Flyers **** the bed this coming season and get a top 5 pick.

[JR Ewing]

On 7/8/2024 at 10:56 AM, mojo1917 said:

My experience with teams I've cheered for helps me to believe a lot of people, especially in this forum,  don't fully grasp all the ramifications of going full loser.

Folks want to cheer for loses and hope for 18-year-old boys to save the franchise? Have at it.

I won't be joining you. 

I won't be overly critical of a management team that is trying to improve, states the goal is to become a contender, and other than hanging on to Scott Laughton too long has shown it's not shining us on with it's actions.

 

I get this 100%... Losing on purpose is really easy to do, but getting back to winning after that is a lot harder.

 

It's one thing to shred talent, but it's another to build it back up. Sure, you can stockpile draft picks, but those picks need to be the right players with the right mix of qualities and at the right positions. If you get any of that wrong, you wander in the wilderness.

 

The right pick has to come along. Not all #1s, even consensus #1 picks, are the player to build a franchise around. Some of those players simply won't pan out for a variety of reasons, ranging from the scouts just had him wrong, to injury, and you can rely on both of those things happening to several picks. You need the right people in player development. You need the right people in the AHL. You need an owner who keeps his nose out of hockey ops.

 

You can't have bad luck. The Oilers had 24 wins in 2015, picked Connor McDavid #1, and by 2017, they doubled their wins and went to 2nd round of the playoffs, but then, 2018 happened. Andrej Sekera suffered a Achilles injury which instantly ended his career as a quality defenseman. The same year, Oscar Klefbom's shoulder soreness becomes life-impacting, sleeping only a few hours a night, and he soon retires at 26, due to arthritis. The next year, Adam Larsson's father dies in his son's arms, across the street from the arena, and Larsson decides it's too painful to remain with the team, walking for no return. The Oilers didn't make any mistakes, but circumstances carve out half of their defense core overnight.

 

Total rebuilds can work, but a lot factors (many of which are completely beyond your control) have to swing in your favour in order for it to go right, and it only take a few things for the rebuild to go devastatingly wrong.

[JR Ewing]

44 minutes ago, Lindbergh31 said:

What sucks is the Flyers had a homegrown goalie since Lindbergh to build around (Hart) and he decides to do something really stupid that basically ****ed his NHL career and the Flyers are back to square one. I was hoping Briere was going to trade Konecny and Laughton at the draft but that didn't happen. It's disheartening that this organization is truly afraid of tearing it down to the studs and rebuilding. They rather rinse, recycle and repeat the same process. Being a fan since 1972, I highly doubt I'll see another Stanley Cup win before I die but I guess the only saving grace is it could be worse, I could have cheered for the Toronto Maple Leafs instead. Well Briere has 3 first round picks for the 2025 draft, hopefully the Flyers **** the bed this coming season and get a top 5 pick.

 

In 218 career starts, Carter Hart gave the Flyers a Quality Start (with a SV% above league average) less than half of the time. The hunt has been going on for many years, but he wasn't the franchise goalie either.

 

[Podein25]

1 hour ago, Lindbergh31 said:

Lindbergh

 

#triggered

[radoran]

14 minutes ago, JR Ewing said:

Total rebuilds can work, but a lot factors (many of which are completely beyond your control) have to swing in your favour in order for it to go right, and it only take a few things for the rebuild to go devastatingly wrong.

 

This is true of any plan to be a competitive team. There are always things out of your control. Luchanko could reverse his ACL next year and never play in the NHL. Michkov could stand too close to a window in Omsk.

 

Weird things happen.

 

The question Flyers fans are grappling with is whether it's better to be the Flyers with one playoff round win in over a decade and Luchanko, Drysdale, and Michkov amongst four first rounders over the past three years or, for example, Chicago who won two Cups, and have Bedard, Levshunov among six first rounders in the past three years and two more firsts next year as a foundation for a new way. Or Edmonton, for that matter, who was one game removed from winning it all last season.

 

The Flyers haven't been that close since... 1987. When they lost to... Edmonton.

 

The through point on everything is that no team has won any of the past 16 Cups without at least two Top Five picks on the roster. There's nothing that says they have to be drafted. If you can get some idiot to trade you Jack Eichel, go right ahead and do it. Worked for Vegas.

[Podein25]

3 minutes ago, radoran said:

Luchanko could reverse his ACL

 

I did this once, playing lacrosse: my ACL went in reverse, backwards, past the 90 degree mark, if you know what I mean. The sound of it was extraordinary, like a gun shot. Still threatens to haunt my dreams (thank god for the sheep).

[RonJeremy]

57 minutes ago, JR Ewing said:

 

In 218 career starts, Carter Hart gave the Flyers a Quality Start (with a SV% above league average) less than half of the time. The hunt has been going on for many years, but he wasn't the franchise goalie either.

 

He was Bernie Parent the second compared to the stiffs we had for the past thirty years . 

[JR Ewing]

9 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

This is true of any plan to be a competitive team. There are always things out of your control. Luchanko could reverse his ACL next year and never play in the NHL. Michkov could stand too close to a window in Omsk.

 

Well yes, this is my very point. These things can happen to any NHL team, but in this scenario, the team has stripped away all useful talent in an effort to get the pieces which are now injured..

 

9 minutes ago, radoran said:

Weird things happen.

 

The question Flyers fans are grappling with is whether it's better to be the Flyers with one playoff round win in over a decade and Luchanko, Drysdale, and Michkov amongst four first rounders over the past three years or, for example, Chicago who won two Cups, and have Bedard, Levshunov among six first rounders in the past three years and two more firsts next year as a foundation for a new way. Or Edmonton, for that matter, who was one game removed from winning it all last season.

 

The Flyers haven't been that close since... 1987. When they lost to... Edmonton.

 

I understand the problem at hand, and I'm not saying that the Flyers should keep on doing what they've done for years. Where I differ is on a more fundamental point: a lot of people seem to feel that the only way to rebuild is to strip everything out of the roster and start up again and, having watched that approach up close for a decade, I'm not convinced that it's the best/only way to do build a winner.

 

I think the Flyers missed their chance at the deadline this year.

 

9 minutes ago, radoran said:

The through point on everything is that no team has won any of the past 16 Cups without at least two Top Five picks on the roster. There's nothing that says they have to be drafted. If you can get some idiot to trade you Jack Eichel, go right ahead and do it. Worked for Vegas.

 

Between no state taxes and the fact that the existing teams paid them to take players off their hands, the Golden Knights almost don't count. They were given such a head start that they almost won the Cup out of the gate, before Eichel even arrived.

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, Lindbergh31 said:

I was hoping Briere was going to trade Konecny and Laughton at the draft but that didn't happen.

 

Yep should have traded Konecny for Askarov from the Preds who are trying to move now since they signed Saros to the 8 year deal.

 

Then you coould have traded Ersson or even Fedotov but nah they are the smartest guys in the room.

[OccamsRazor]

44 minutes ago, radoran said:

Weird things happen.

 

Yep had the Oilers gotten the #2 overall Reinhart insead of #3 Draisaitl well they would have had their #1 and #2 overall to help guarantee the Cup but nope.

 

That dude helped the other team win it all this year.

 

All those top 5 picks they had squandered.

[JR Ewing]

Just now, OccamsRazor said:

 

Yep had the Oilers gotten the #2 overall Reinhart insead of #3 Draisaitl well they would have had their #1 and #2 overall to help guarantee the Cup but nope.

 

That dude helped the other team win it all this year.

 

All those top 5 picks they had squandered.

 

???

[OccamsRazor]

4 minutes ago, JR Ewing said:

 

???

 

Cup winners have to have a #1 and/or #2 on their roster to win the last 20 years besides the Red Wings in 08 and Blues who had the 3rd OA 4th OA and 5th OA on their roster.

 

Them the facts.

 

 

 

Edited July 10 by OccamsRazor

[JR Ewing]

Just now, OccamsRazor said:

 

Cup winners have to have a #1 and/or #2 on their roster to win the last 20 years besides the Red Wings in 08 and Blues who had the 3rd OA 4t OA and 5th OA on their roster.

 

Them the facts.

 

Oh; ok. Where they were picked doesn't mean that the pick was correct, and Draisaitl is a good example. In a re-draft Draisaitl goes #1 in 2014, over Ekblad and Reinhart, but that's cool. I just wasn't sure what you were meaning there.