Howie58 Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 Greetings: I thought this was an interesting assessment of the Flyers' approach to improvement. It reflects what some have argued here for some time--they aren't in an all-out dump mode, with Provorov being an exception. Keeping Konecny all but guarantees the retool model: https://thehockeywriters.com/how-philadelphia-flyers-can-retool-their-roster/ Giampietro is not telling us to despair. The model may work. But the Command Staff has to be careful about cap management and make sure they really are developing good players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 21 minutes ago, Howie58 said: Greetings: I thought this was an interesting assessment of the Flyers' approach to improvement. It reflects what some have argued here for some time--they aren't in an all-out dump mode, with Provorov being an exception. Keeping Konecny all but guarantees the retool model: https://thehockeywriters.com/how-philadelphia-flyers-can-retool-their-roster/ Giampietro is not telling us to despair. The model may work. But the Command Staff has to be careful about cap management and make sure they really are developing good players. My problem is he has no historical context for his theory. Its basically, a "first time for everything" conjecture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howie58 Posted July 8 Author Share Posted July 8 6 minutes ago, jammer2 said: My problem is he has no historical context for his theory. Its basically, a "first time for everything" conjecture. My take is that a full-on rebuild would mean Konecny, Laughton, and other would have been out the door by now in return for picks or assets. Perhaps my take is off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 56 minutes ago, Howie58 said: My take is that a full-on rebuild would mean Konecny, Laughton, and other would have been out the door by now in return for picks or assets. Perhaps my take is off. I agree. Konency is kind of like the swing vote in all this. He does not fit the rebuild time line and his salary makes it impossible to weaponize cap space after this year. That 7-8 mill could all be used to take on bad deals and in general, gather useful assets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post flyercanuck Posted July 8 Popular Post Share Posted July 8 (edited) Flyers are in Retool Mode, Not a Rebuild Gee...who saw this coming? Maybe, just maybe, when Jett Luchanko is GM the Flyers will FINALLY realize their way just doesn't work and do an actual rebuild. SJ sharks - 3 picks in the top 33 including 1st and 11th overall Chicago - 3 picks in the top 27 including 2nd overall and 18th Trade off assets that don't fit into your rebuild plan and load up on top end talent. Flyers - 3 picks in top 60 including 13th and 51st. Anyone see a difference here? No plan, just hang on to guys that "play the right way' even though that never gets you anywhere. Then figure out how to buy them out 4 years after 7 year overpaid contract. It hasn't worked the last 50 times we did it, but this time for sure. Edited July 8 by flyercanuck 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 Does Briere get fired in 2027 or 2028? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllaZilla Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 The Wild have been retooling for the last several seasons and it’s…well…you can see the results for yourself. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homer Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 This was never a rebuild. After 14 years of mediocrity or worse (they became mediocre a millisecond after that stick blade made contact with Pronger's eye), they needed to tear everything down to rebuild. They had no intention of doing that. Instead they're just using the same formula they're always used - contending is not the goal, just improving. They traded two players of any significance, Provorov and Gauthier, not as part of some plan, but because neither was willing to stay here. That's depressing. And worse, even if Michkov is everything we hope he'll be, we may end up just like the Wild. A supremely talented Russian winger surrounded by a middling team. And the beat goes on. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 "They've got a talented winger and the rest of their prospect pool could fill out a nice bottom 6" isn't quite the ringing endorsement of a "Stanley Cup contender" that the author might like. The perfect mark for a "retooling" franchise. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 12 hours ago, Howie58 said: Greetings: I thought this was an interesting assessment of the Flyers' approach to improvement. It reflects what some have argued here for some time--they aren't in an all-out dump mode, with Provorov being an exception. Keeping Konecny all but guarantees the retool model: https://thehockeywriters.com/how-philadelphia-flyers-can-retool-their-roster/ Giampietro is not telling us to despair. The model may work. But the Command Staff has to be careful about cap management and make sure they really are developing good players. They don't have a cap issue so to speak once everyone is on LTIR which seems the plan. In order to utilize all the cap space they must be as close to the cap as they can in order to get all the cap space to lose. Whatever ammount they are away from the cap once the season starts they will lose that cap space. They make a paper transaction to get under the cap and then LTIR the guys they need to do so with and have around 10.25 mill to work with. And yeah we knew they weren't rebuilding because they didn't blow it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 12 hours ago, Howie58 said: It reflects what some have argued here for some time--they aren't in an all-out dump mode, It's not like this tidbit should surprise anyone. Not one of Hilferty Jones or Briere has said anything different. They have said they will not go all out-dump-mode. They have said this repeatedly. They have said they are rebuilding the roster, which has turned over by over 70% since they've taken over. I don't see where anyone has been misled. I do see where all of our internal GMs take issue with how the process is unfolding. It's the fan's prerogative to complain when things aren't going well or as they'd like them too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post jammer2 Posted July 8 Popular Post Share Posted July 8 28 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: It's not like this tidbit should surprise anyone. Not one of Hilferty Jones or Briere has said anything different. They have said they will not go all out-dump-mode. They have said this repeatedly. They have said they are rebuilding the roster, which has turned over by over 70% since they've taken over. I don't see where anyone has been misled. I do see where all of our internal GMs take issue with how the process is unfolding. It's the fan's prerogative to complain when things aren't going well or as they'd like them too. Not ripping it down to the studs is such a flawed approach though. We have seen post after post proving you NEED a few top 5 picks to win the Cup. Basically, by not fully committing to a tear down, you're hoping for that 5% Hurricane/Cam Ward lightning in a bòttle kinda miracle. This approach flies in the face of logic and relies on luck WAY more than a legit rebuild. 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 (edited) 38 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: I do see where all of our internal GMs take issue with how the process is unfolding. It's the fan's prerogative to complain when things aren't going well or as they'd like them too. None of us knows exactly wtf goes on with Flyer management...but look at it this way....I was glad as anyone when Briere took over. Not cause of what I thought he was, but who I knew he wasn't. Fletcher. Anyone, and I mean anyone, would be an upgrade. He did a few good things...got rid of some players I can't stand and who never should have been Flyers. Got a decent return on a once great defensive prospect that turned to shite. I know his hands are tied with where the team is with the cap (and time will tell if he's just more of the same when he has space...I'm guessing they'd be throwing stupid money at mediocre players just like the rest of them if they could). But the future of this team, to me anyway, would certainly be a hell of a lot brighter if we had a year or two of top 5 picks to look forward to, to go along with Michkov/Gauthier/Buium than it does with mid-round picks and Michkov/Drysdale/Luchanko. But that's just me. I get that certain players don't want to come to Philly, but why is that? Because they look at where this org. is at, and figure they likely aren't going anywhere ever, because it's just the same mentality over and over? Cause it's certainly appearing that way. And as jammer mentioned above, hoping you luck out that mid-round prospects end up elite is hardly a great strategy. Edited July 8 by flyercanuck 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 33 minutes ago, jammer2 said: Not ripping it down to the studs is such a flawed approach though. That's your opinion. I understand it's shared by many others. That's alright by me, I like everyone here well enough to acknowledge that opinion. I hate losing. More than I like winning. I ****** hate losing. I hate that I've seen other teams I've rooted for try the tear down only to be; not just mediocre, but terrible for decades in the Sixers case almost a decade. With my baseball team, there was a glimpse of some competence in the early twenty teens, but those guys weren't beating anyone, they were just not as terrible as the scrubs that came before and that they were then turned into when it was determined the team needed to tank, again. 30 years of ********. Dipping into the losing column occasionally is natural, but it guarantees nothing. I will stand by my statement that the Penguins being gifted Crosby after disgracefully jettisoning anyone that didn't have a 2nd job to get Lemieux has convinced this fanbase there's only one way to win. In any team atmosphere there are cycles of success and cycles where there is room for improvement. The good teams figure out ways to minimize those lean times, or use them to modify their practices. Creating a false cycle of failure doesn't sit well with me. It never will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 44 minutes ago, flyercanuck said: hoping you luck out that mid-round prospects end up elite is hardly a great strategy. Thing is, they've actually connected on a number of 20+ picks. Giroux, Konecny, Laughton. They have some good players from the teens - Sanheim, York. Hell, Morgan Frost is about to break out as a true #1 C in the NHL at age 25 and he was 27th overall. All of that has gotten them over a decade of a middling, bubble playoff action and four - going on five - straight years missing the playoffs. Surely if they continue on this path, they will find their way to the promised land. It's inevitable. This is the Philadelphia Flyers we're talking about here. Just a few tweaks and the 12th overall that will in a few years inevitably be in a position to supplant Morgan Frost as the team's stellar, dominant #1 C. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 5 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: The good teams figure out ways to minimize those lean times, or use them to modify their practices. This is pretty much what separates the good teams from the Philadelphia Flyers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 1 hour ago, mojo1917 said: That's your opinion. I understand it's shared by many others. That's alright by me, I like everyone here well enough to acknowledge that opinion. I hate losing. More than I like winning. I ****** hate losing. I hate that I've seen other teams I've rooted for try the tear down only to be; not just mediocre, but terrible for decades in the Sixers case almost a decade. With my baseball team, there was a glimpse of some competence in the early twenty teens, but those guys weren't beating anyone, they were just not as terrible as the scrubs that came before and that they were then turned into when it was determined the team needed to tank, again. 30 years of ********. Dipping into the losing column occasionally is natural, but it guarantees nothing. I will stand by my statement that the Penguins being gifted Crosby after disgracefully jettisoning anyone that didn't have a 2nd job to get Lemieux has convinced this fanbase there's only one way to win. In any team atmosphere there are cycles of success and cycles where there is room for improvement. The good teams figure out ways to minimize those lean times, or use them to modify their practices. Creating a false cycle of failure doesn't sit well with me. It never will. I hate losing also. Just going by actual rosters, there has been 2 teams win it all in the past 20 years that did not have a top 5 pick. How do you get said top 5 pick? 1)You suck really bad. 2)You overpay to the point where its not worth it Unless you think the Flyers can be that 3rd magical addition to non top 5 club, those are the options. I'd rather really suck then continue this perpetual cycle of treading water in the deep end...but to each their own. They can still be entertaining and finish bottom 5. You just need 2 stinky, rancid like Goalies. Judging by last year's final month, that may indeed be the plan...lol. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 Everyone knows the year to throw in the towel was 2023 when the Flyers took the pipe, the Fletcher trade for Ellis didn't work out some guys got hurt. The team was bad, but there were some pieces that could be used to rebuild. Instead of making a move then, they doubled down on Risto and didn't ship Giroux off to Colorado where the better package was offered. I wasn't a fan of what Fletcher did then. But I would have been on-board with a fire-sale at that deadline. It was a lost season, try to use it. They didn't. This concept isn't some kind of higher math that I'm not understanding. I get it. I don't like it. My experience with teams I've cheered for helps me to believe a lot of people, especially in this forum, don't fully grasp all the ramifications of going full loser. Folks want to cheer for loses and hope for 18-year-old boys to save the franchise? Have at it. I won't be joining you. I won't be overly critical of a management team that is trying to improve, states the goal is to become a contender, and other than hanging on to Scott Laughton too long has shown it's not shining us on with it's actions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 (edited) 24 minutes ago, jammer2 said: there has been 2 teams win it all in the past 20 years that did not have a top 5 pick. The '06 Hurricanes and the '08 Red Wings? Two teams you can't re-create in a capped world that understands that European scouting exists? The past 16 Cups have gone to teams with at least two Top 5 picks on the roster. Edited July 8 by radoran 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 (edited) 1 hour ago, mojo1917 said: I will stand by my statement that the Penguins being gifted Crosby after disgracefully jettisoning anyone that didn't have a 2nd job to get Lemieux has convinced this fanbase there's only one way to win. In any team atmosphere there are cycles of success and cycles where there is room for improvement. The good teams figure out ways to minimize those lean times, or use them to modify their practices. Creating a false cycle of failure doesn't sit well with me. It never will. Now just hold on a minute there my friend....I'm basing my opinion of a short term tank on how pretty much every single team has built a champion over the last couple decades, not solely on the Pens. We've been over this enough times, and the proof has been put up right front and centre...teams that win cups almost every single time have 1st and 2nd overalls on them. Chicago did it, won 3 cups, and is in the process of doing it again. The most up to date prospect pool (can't find one including the June draft) I can find has the Flyers ranked 20th, and that's including Michkov. Chicago is ranked 10th and that's NOT including Bedard and Korchinski who are both already contributing in the NHL. That's where a team that is...whatever they want to call it, rebuilding or retooling, should be. Not with all the cup contenders and a couple of franchises that have no clue what they're doing. Oh...wait a minute.... And I doubt what they did in this years draft moves them up the ranks much either. https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-farm-system-rankings/ Edited July 8 by flyercanuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 28 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: Everyone knows the year to throw in the towel was 2023 when the Flyers took the pipe, the Fletcher trade for Ellis didn't work out some guys got hurt. The team was bad, but there were some pieces that could be used to rebuild. Instead of making a move then, they doubled down on Risto and didn't ship Giroux off to Colorado where the better package was offered. I wasn't a fan of what Fletcher did then. But I would have been on-board with a fire-sale at that deadline. It was a lost season, try to use it. They didn't. This concept isn't some kind of higher math that I'm not understanding. I get it. I don't like it. My experience with teams I've cheered for helps me to believe a lot of people, especially in this forum, don't fully grasp all the ramifications of going full loser. Folks want to cheer for loses and hope for 18-year-old boys to save the franchise? Have at it. I won't be joining you. I won't be overly critical of a management team that is trying to improve, states the goal is to become a contender, and other than hanging on to Scott Laughton too long has shown it's not shining us on with it's actions. Well, time is on your side....history on the other hand.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 35 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: Folks want to cheer for loses and hope for 18-year-old boys to save the franchise? Have at it. The biggest hope this franchise has had in forever is....19. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 43 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: My experience with teams I've cheered for helps me to believe a lot of people, especially in this forum, don't fully grasp all the ramifications of going full loser. Hi, lifetime Philadelphia sports supporter here. Remember 1983-2008 Very Well, thanks. Also, lots of friends in Buffalo so know very well how things have gone there. The last 16 Cups have still been won by rosters with at least two top five picks on them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer4ever Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 This isn't a retool. This isn't a rebuild. It's not a tank. It's simply a continuation of dysfunctional asset management and a hockey ops that is equal parts ignorant and arrogant. TK will get his 8 year deal and it will solidify another decade of striving for mediocrity. By then Scott Laughton will be the president of hockey ops and Couturier will be the GM, and we will all be typing I told you so messages on this board. I give Briere until this time next year to play his hand and get his retool pieces from the prospective deep 2025 draft, and then I will have a yard sale of all my Flyer memorabilia. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 @jammer2 @flyercanuck @radoran Not arguing top 5 picks, as established I can read. I don't like the idea of losing on purpose. All of you all can enjoy the sport however you like. I'm not going to join in the hoping for loses and deliberately putting an inferior production on professional ice. You do you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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