Popular Post JR Ewing Posted July 5 Popular Post Share Posted July 5 @flyercanuck It's always good when the Finals have just wrapped between two teams loaded with 1st-overalls and lottery picks, and then somebody says you shouldn't build your team around 1st-overalls and lottery picks. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 Just now, JR Ewing said: @flyercanuck It's always good when the Finals have just wrapped between two teams loaded with 1st-overalls and lottery picks, and then somebody says you shouldn't build your team around 1st-overalls and lottery picks. Its quite comical isn't it ..... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J0e Th0rnton Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 4 hours ago, flyercanuck said: Philly, nor anyone else, can build a team the way Vegas did. Vegas can never build a team the way they did again. So they really aren't a very good example (not sure how many times I've said this and yet you keep using them as an example, and keep mentioning they don't have franchise type players when they have Eichel and Pietrangelo both 2nd overall draft picks) Florida has a franchise player in Barkov...actually they have 1st overall Ekblad, 2-2nd overalls in Barkov and Reinhart, a 4th overall in Bennett, so thanks for proving my point. Both those teams would still be looking for their 1st cup without those players. Again, thanks for proving my point. And next time you want to bring up Florida and Vegas, remember, they have several players that were taken 1st and 2nd overall on their rosters, so thanks for proving my point. Philly has already wasted 50 years NOT chasing a franchise type player, and have won zero cups in that span. Thanks for proving my point. We made the playoffs with Chuck Fletcher (worst GM ever....who you thought was doing a good job!!!) proving that it really isn't anything to hang your hat on. I'd rather have Celebrini on my roster right now than yet another 4 or 5 game memory of a beatdown. Thanks, yet again, for proving my point. And Huberdeau was 3rd overall and they moved him for Matt Tkachuk, who was 6th overall. Ekblad was 1st overall and he turned put merely "ok" like JVR, but won the cup with them. Yeah, they drafted and moved correct pieces and the puzzle came together 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerdog Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 (edited) 5 hours ago, flyercanuck said: Philly, nor anyone else, can build a team the way Vegas did. Vegas can never build a team the way they did again. So they really aren't a very good example (not sure how many times I've said this and yet you keep using them as an example, and keep mentioning they don't have franchise type players when they have Eichel and Pietrangelo both 2nd overall draft picks) Florida has a franchise player in Barkov...actually they have 1st overall Ekblad, 2-2nd overalls in Barkov and Reinhart, a 4th overall in Bennett, so thanks for proving my point. Both those teams would still be looking for their 1st cup without those players. Again, thanks for proving my point. And next time you want to bring up Florida and Vegas, remember, they have several players that were taken 1st and 2nd overall on their rosters, so thanks for proving my point. Philly has already wasted 50 years NOT chasing a franchise type player, and have won zero cups in that span. Thanks for proving my point. We made the playoffs with Chuck Fletcher (worst GM ever....who you thought was doing a good job!!!) proving that it really isn't anything to hang your hat on. I'd rather have Celebrini on my roster right now than yet another 4 or 5 game memory of a beatdown. Thanks, yet again, for proving my point. but then you could also point to the 2011 Bruins..biggest names on those teams were a young Lucic, a rookie Seguin, and a young(ish) Chara and a lot of FA/trade acquisitions, they struck lightning in a bottle much like the 2017 Philadelphia Eagles Edited July 5 by flyerdog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 1 minute ago, flyerdog said: but then you could also point to the 2011 Bruins..biggest names on those teams were a young Lucic and a young(ish) Chara and a lot of FA/trade acquisitions There will always be an exception(s). It happens. However the overwhelming evidence and consensus suggests otherwise. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J0e Th0rnton Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 (edited) 21 minutes ago, flyerdog said: but then you could also point to the 2011 Bruins..biggest names on those teams were a young Lucic and a young(ish) Chara and a lot of FA/trade acquisitions A lot of pieces they had as bait higher picks and prospects = better trade value back. Krejci, Bergeron, Marchand were homegrown talent and their top 3 playoff scorers that year they won. Boston was always good at developing. They at the precap times were just frugal and bad at keeping players. But sure, you will be able to find teams occasionally who don't rebuild traditionally and get lucky and have cap space the year a UFA is available. That's rarer in the cap era though. And the cap isn't going away Edited July 5 by J0e Th0rnton 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 6 hours ago, flyercanuck said: Florida has a franchise player in Barkov...actually they have 1st overall Ekblad, 2-2nd overalls in Barkov and Reinhart, a 4th overall And this is why i don't think the Flyers will ever get to where they need to be to win it all. They just will never bottom out or luck out like they did with Patrick to be able to build a team like you said. But i really really do believe they have once chance to prove they did obtain a key piece in this by stealing a 1st or even at least 2nd overall for a piece of that if Michkov comes through and proves he should have been the 2nd overall not Carlsson. So then the Flyers would be able to use a model like the only Cup winner without those 1OAs on it the St. Louis Blues built. They had no 1OA or 1OA on the roster in the last 20 year basically the after the lockout no one has won it all but them without those pieces. I don't like i can't help it i am just reporting facts. So Flyers have to find a way around it. Blues had a 3OA 4OA and 5OA on it though. But their Cup winning goalie was a 3rd round pick so just like Vegas and Bob a undrafted free agent your goalie doesn't have to be some high pick to be able to win it all. So i think if the Flyers can STEAL two more studs i don't can where or how they may have a glimmer of hope. But their 4AO took 11 damn years for his team to finally put it all together so yeah hang on it could still be a long time before we ever even see it....hell i'll be retired by then. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 1 hour ago, flyerdog said: but then you could also point to the 2011 Bruins..biggest names on those teams were a young Lucic, a rookie Seguin, and a young(ish) Chara and a lot of FA/trade acquisitions, they struck lightning in a bottle much like the 2017 Philadelphia Eagles Seguin, though not integral in that run, was a 2nd overall. He came to the Bruins as the result of trading a 5th overall pick (Kessel) which also brought the Bruins 1st rounder, 9th overall , Dougie Hamilton and a 2nd round pick. Top picks matter. And yes, there is an average of maybe one team every 10 years (it's not even that often) who can win a cup without top picks on their team....so when something happens OVER 90% of the time, it's pretty obvious what the common denominator is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 12 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: And this is why i don't think the Flyers will ever get to where they need to be to win it all. They just will never bottom out or luck out like they did with Patrick to be able to build a team like you said. But i really really do believe they have once chance to prove they did obtain a key piece in this by stealing a 1st or even at least 2nd overall for a piece of that if Michkov comes through and proves he should have been the 2nd overall not Carlsson. So then the Flyers would be able to use a model like the only Cup winner without those 1OAs on it the St. Louis Blues built. They had no 1OA or 1OA on the roster in the last 20 year basically the after the lockout no one has won it all but them without those pieces. I don't like i can't help it i am just reporting facts. So Flyers have to find a way around it. Blues had a 3OA 4OA and 5OA on it though. But their Cup winning goalie was a 3rd round pick so just like Vegas and Bob a undrafted free agent your goalie doesn't have to be some high pick to be able to win it all. So i think if the Flyers can STEAL two more studs i don't can where or how they may have a glimmer of hope. But their 4AO took 11 damn years for his team to finally put it all together so yeah hang on it could still be a long time before we ever even see it....hell i'll be retired by then. Most of those top picks are guys who can carry teams on their backs. As good as I think Michkov is, I don't think he's carrying a team on his back. Wingers generally aren't those guys. So ya, he needs an elite centre. And they rarely fall out of the top picks. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 18 minutes ago, flyercanuck said: As good as I think Michkov is, I don't think he's carrying a team on his back I'll double back to this after i see him play a season and see how i feel about him. But you're right those guys are dudes that can carry a team, Piertrangelo is what i sort of envisioned Sanheim being a poor man's version when they drafted him. And he went on to lead Vegas to win another. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 35 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: I'll double back to this after i see him play a season and see how i feel about him. But you're right those guys are dudes that can carry a team, Piertrangelo is what i sort of envisioned Sanheim being a poor man's version when they drafted him. And he went on to lead Vegas to win another. I think Sanheim could have been a little closer to Pietrangelo with proper development....but, you know. When I watched Pietrangelo play in Barrie, I was wondering what the hell he was still doing in junior. He was that much better than most guys on the rink. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyClarkeFan16 Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 27 minutes ago, flyercanuck said: I think Sanheim could have been a little closer to Pietrangelo with proper development....but, you know. When I watched Pietrangelo play in Barrie, I was wondering what the hell he was still doing in junior. He was that much better than most guys on the rink. But we were told that's changing under Laperriere. Apparently he's done a real good job developing players..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyClarkeFan16 Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 Jesus, I'd kill for a Benoit Groulx-type coach in Lehigh Valley. Everyone thinks that Tampa Bay was just lucky when it came to drafting. They also had an incredible minor league system in which late round picks and undrafted free agents were signed and could play right away when called up because the coach down there knew how to develop players. As long as the Flyers think that development is only worthwhile if a player fits the system, we're just going to see more and more waste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 5 hours ago, JR Ewing said: @flyercanuck It's always good when the Finals have just wrapped between two teams loaded with 1st-overalls and lottery picks, and then somebody says you shouldn't build your team around 1st-overalls and lottery picks. 𝕿𝖍𝖎𝖘 𝖎𝖘 𝖓𝖔𝖙 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖌𝖊𝖓𝖎𝖚𝖘 𝖞𝖔𝖚'𝖗𝖊 𝖑𝖔𝖔𝖐𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖋𝖔𝖗. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 6 hours ago, pilldoc said: Its quite comical isn't it ..... Yes, kind of like watching old Hindenburg videos. Fricken hysterical. By the way, where'd the paste go? I mean, the jar was brand new just yesterday! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 (edited) On 7/4/2024 at 9:43 AM, tucson83 said: no one wants to admit that it's difficult to get a franchise changing player regardless of how you do it I admit that. There are people who don't like to admit that there are people who like to admit that because it's easier for them to argue with a straw man than it is to engage the actual points being made in the conversation they're not really trying to have. That doesn't change the fact that it's easier to do it at the top of the draft than hoping a GM lets a 34-year-old Steve Stamkos hit the open market so someone can craft a "title shot" out of it. On 7/4/2024 at 9:43 AM, tucson83 said: look the devils they have been drafting top 5, they havent won jack, sens, sabres, coyotes, ducks, they havent gone anywhere The flip side of this is that of the 9 franchises that have won over the past 12 years they have all had at least two top five picks on the roster. Even Vegas. There's no magic draft pick or picks that give you a championship. It's how you develop them, how you build around them, and - most importantly - how your competition is doing exactly the same thing. Edited July 5 by radoran 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 4 hours ago, flyerdog said: but then you could also point to the 2011 Bruins..biggest names on those teams were a young Lucic, a rookie Seguin, and a young(ish) Chara and a lot of FA/trade acquisitions, they struck lightning in a bottle much like the 2017 Philadelphia Eagles There's a bit of a holdover from the pre-Cap era and some long term contract shenanigans getting worked out, but the Bruins also had a #2 overall (Seguin) and had dealt Kessel who they picked at #5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 (edited) 47 minutes ago, radoran said: That doesn't change the fact that it's easier to do it at the top of the draft than hoping a GM lets a 34-year-old Steve Stamkos hit the open market so someone can craft a "title shot" out of it. If my memory is correct ..(checking my notes) ..... I believe the Flyers "did" tried that route (the route the poster you are quoting is suggesting) once when they signed an aging Vinnie Vince Lecavalier to a 5 year $22 million contract. (Sarcasm font coming up) --> Matter of that deal worked out so great that in his 2nd season with the Flyers Lecavalier’s production plummeted like the Hindenburg. He only scoredexactly 8 goals and 20 points. Things went so poorly that Lecavalier was a healthy scratch for the first time in his career! Seven games into the 2015-16 season, Lecavalier was traded to the Los Angeles Kings to get his salary off the Flyers books. Not wanting to be saddled with the contract as well, the Kings insisted on a provision in the deal that Lecavalier had to retire at the end of the season. But that truly does not even compare to the hum dinger the Flyers brain trust did with the Russain Bear ..... (again ...checking my notes).... The Russian was signed to an eight-year/$51 million deal and quickly proved he wouldn’t be worth that much. The first year was up-and-down. Bryz did in fact earn 33 wins and wasn’t at fault for the Flyers getting bounced by the Devils in that year’s playoffs, but the team had no problem shuffling in Sergei Bobrovsky. Despite that, the Flyers decided to stick with Bryz, trading Bob in the offseason for draft picks. That trade proved to be a big mistake by Philly. The undrafted netminder went on to win the Vezina in 2012-13, while Bryzgalov struggled for 19 wins and was bought out at the end of the season. A decision that still haunts this franchise today considering Bob just won the SCF with Florida. I can’t even imagine how excited Holmgren and the rest of the Flyers’ brass were when Bettmann announced the compliance buyouts after the 2012 lockout ended. More sarcasm font here ..... Such a great transaction this was that the Flyers ARE STILL paying Bryz $1.6 million for 3 more years ........ So I call utter BS when someone even remotely suggests that all you have to do to built a SC winner is my signing big names. The Flyers tried that ... not once but twice and has gotten them absolutely no where ....... @radoran ... your post is spot on! Edited July 5 by pilldoc 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerdog Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 3 minutes ago, pilldoc said: If my memory is correct ..(checking my notes) ..... I believe the Flyers "did" tried that route (the route the poster you are quoting is suggesting) once when they signed an aging Vinnie Vince Lecavalier to a 5 year $22 million contract. (Sarcasm font coming up) --> Matter of that deal worked out so great that in his 2nd season with the Flyers Lecavalier’s production plummeted like the Hindenburg. He only scoredexactly 8 goals and 20 points. Things went so poorly that Lecavalier was a healthy scratch for the first time in his career! Seven games into the 2015-16 season, Lecavalier was traded to the Los Angeles Kings to get his salary off the Flyers books. Not wanting to be saddled with the contract as well, the Kings insisted on a provision in the deal that Lecavalier had to retire at the end of the season. But that truly does not even compare to the hum dinger the Flyers brain trust did with the Russain Bear ..... (again ...checking my notes).... The Russian was signed to an eight-year/$51 million deal and quickly proved he wouldn’t be worth that much. The first year was up-and-down. Bryz did in fact earn 33 wins and wasn’t at fault for the Flyers getting bounced by the Devils in that year’s playoffs, but the team had no problem shuffling in Sergei Bobrovsky. Despite that, the Flyers decided to stick with Bryzgalov, trading Bobrovsky in the offseason for draft picks. That trade proved to be a big mistake by Philly. The undrafted netminder went on to win the Vezina in 2012-13, while Bryzgalov struggled for 19 wins and was bought out at the end of the season. A descion that still haunts this franchise today considering Bob just won the SCF with Florida. I can’t even imagine how excited Holmgren and the rest of the Flyers’ brass were when Bettmann announced the compliance buyouts after the 2012 lockout ended. More sarcasm font here ..... Such a great transaction this was that the Flyers ARE STILL paying Bryz $1.6 million for 3 more years ........ So I call utter BS when someone even remotely suggests that all you have to do to built a SC winner is my signing big names. The Flyers tried that ... not once but twice and has gotten them absolutely no where ....... @radoran ... your post is spot on! "Buying" a championship has only worked once (imo)...the Florida Marlins...You could say that the Eagles "bought" the 2017 championship...as they did have a lot of players that were brought in that year or the prior year, but this is arguable...everything just clicked that year, and they got all the bounces, so to speak... The problem goes deeper...with the Flyers... one could point to several things... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 19 minutes ago, pilldoc said: So I call utter BS when someone even remotely suggests that all you have to do to built a SC winner is my signing big names. The Flyers tried that ... not once but twice and has gotten them absolutely no where ....... If by twice you mean EVERY SINGLE YEAR ON FREE AGENCY DAY....the Flyers were always chasing the big name FA (because they could never get a superstar drafting because they would never rebuild). Not only didn't that route EVER work (never won a cup, and that is the ONLY goal that matters) most of those players careers ended up falling off a cliff well before the contract ended. Yet another reason to draft your star players...you get their best years. Some of them at reasonable cap hits, unlike the grossly overpaid FA route. In before radoran also mentions despite Holmgrens terrible free agent signings, poor coaching, lousy trades, crap drafting and mediocre playing, he's in the Flyers Hall of Fame. That's some legacy they have going on in the ol' Boys Club. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 (edited) 15 minutes ago, flyerdog said: "Buying" a championship has only worked once (imo)...the Florida Marlins...You could say that the Eagles "bought" the 2017 championship...as they did have a lot of players that were brought in that year or the prior year, but this is arguable...everything just clicked that year, and they got all the bounces, so to speak... I would argue that both the NFL / MLB is slightly different, however, your original premise is correct ..... Edited July 5 by pilldoc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 9 minutes ago, flyercanuck said: If by twice you mean EVERY SINGLE YEAR ON FREE AGENCY DAY....the Flyers were always chasing the big name FA (because they could never get a superstar drafting because they would never rebuild). Not only didn't that route EVER work (never won a cup, and that is the ONLY goal that matters) most of those players careers ended up falling off a cliff well before the contract ended. Yet another reason to draft your star players...you get their best years. Some of them at reasonable cap hits, unlike the grossly overpaid FA route. In before radoran also mentions despite Holmgrens terrible free agent signings, poor coaching, lousy trades, crap drafting and mediocre playing, he's in the Flyers Hall of Fame. That's some legacy they have going on in the ol' Boys Club. spoken with a voice of clarity and reason .... absolutely spot on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 55 minutes ago, pilldoc said: I believe the Flyers "did" tried that route (the route the poster you are quoting is suggesting) once when they signed an aging Vinnie Vince Lecavalier to a 5 year $22 million contract. Yes, we've seen this before in orange and black. That said, I think VLC (having been bought out) vs. Stamkos (left of own volition) are two different players at this stage of their careers. Trotz is putting everything out there "to compete for the Stanley Cup." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 11 minutes ago, radoran said: That said, I think VLC (having been bought out) vs. Stamkos (left of own volition) are two different players at this stage of their careers. Agreed ....but you get the premise of my point. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheesesteak Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 5 hours ago, flyercanuck said: Most of those top picks are guys who can carry teams on their backs. As good as I think Michkov is, I don't think he's carrying a team on his back. Wingers generally aren't those guys. So ya, he needs an elite centre. And they rarely fall out of the top picks. Yeah, Michkov is definitely going to need a high-skilled partner on that top line to truly reach his potential...maybe they'll suck enough this season to get that guy in 2025 or Jett can turn into that guy with his speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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