Philadelphia Flyers offseason 2024

[SCFlyguy]

12 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

Lol.... Not psychic, but now that they've had a year with Couturier, they can plan his minutes accordingly. There won't be anymore riding Couturier hard. Morgan Frost better be ready because Tortorella is gonna run him hard. He either delivers or gets traded. Those are his only options now.

This reads like a kid's fan fiction.

"Then Couturier will score one million goals and fly to the sun to stop the sun monsters and he will be my friend forever."

[JR Ewing]

12 hours ago, radoran said:

 

I thought we covered this earlier - every team in the league is looking to make a deal to benefit the Flyers.

 

I mean, the Flyers would have taken two 20+ draft picks next year for a top ten pick this year. It's only logical.

 

Except it obviously isn't. Because the Flyers would never have done that.

 

These boards are for people to come on and say what they really wished had happened.

 

And that's one problem with sports fans - they wish something to happen and are disappointed when it doesn't.

 

When you stop wishing, you start understanding what it actually takes the build a winner in this league. And it's not "maybe the 25 year old will suddenly be a 1C."

 

In the last 15 years,  13 franchises have won. And each one of them had at least two top five picks on their roster.

 

 

Heh. Exactly.

 

That's the thing about getting pissed when your team doesn't miraculously trade up to a lottery position... The teams that are already there went through the hell of getting their heads kicked in on a nightly basis and they're not about to trade away that position lightly. Flyers fans should know this already; just look at how much Lindros cost the team to acquire.

 

Fans are frustrated, and I get it. They see what looks like weaponized incompetence and lament that the club didn't do what we can easily see what could have been, even though we don't really know how hard that would be to do or even if it that thing is the right thing to do after all. Even the best GMs make mistakes, and well-run teams run into issues. Look at the Avs: they only have 19 players on their roster and are over the cap by $1.3M. It isn't as if Joe Sakic doesn't know how to run a hockey club; it's hard to do, and the guys on the other have a say in matters, too. Carolina's GM, Eric Tulsky, is an incredibly smart guy, who has multiple degrees and a PHD in physics. He went from working DNA on sequencing to building predictive models for the Hurricanes to running the Hurricanes. I guarantee you, that in Canes forums, Reddit, etc, there are fans bitching about what an idiot he is.

 

[JR Ewing]

2 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

Coots hasn't played a full season in five years,he's gonna be 32, he might be OK on the third or fourth line. Frost definitely has to step up and score more and play more consistent hockey,he definitely has the skill.

 

I mean, Couturier's probably not going to going from being the team's 1C, who plays the most high leverage minutes, to 3C or 4C in one year. The only reason you ask Morgan Frost to take on that assignment is if you really are trying to get the #1 overall pick, because while maybe you see a guy who could be a #1 centre in the NHL, I see a guy who never really produced a lot lower levels, so expecting it in the best league in the world is a big ask.

 

That's not me calling him a bum or anything like that, but slotting him in appropriately. They just played the Stanley Cup Finals... Which of those centres, on either of those teams, would he beat out for a job at the top of the roster? Frost is a high-end 3C or low-end 2C, and unless Couturier's back takes a major step back, he's 1C again this year.

[RonJeremy]

1 hour ago, JR Ewing said:

 

I mean, Couturier's probably not going to going from being the team's 1C, who plays the most high leverage minutes, to 3C or 4C in one year. The only reason you ask Morgan Frost to take on that assignment is if you really are trying to get the #1 overall pick, because while maybe you see a guy who could be a #1 centre in the NHL, I see a guy who never really produced a lot lower levels, so expecting it in the best league in the world is a big ask.

 

That's not me calling him a bum or anything like that, but slotting him in appropriately. They just played the Stanley Cup Finals... Which of those centres, on either of those teams, would he beat out for a job at the top of the roster? Frost is a high-end 3C or low-end 2C, and unless Couturier's back takes a major step back, he's 1C again this year.

I just think that with  Coots breaking down and aging, do we really want to run what's left of him into the ground with first line minutes or preserve his career with less ice time. I agree Frost is not a first line center , but potentially a second line center, this is his last year to prove it. Frost has solid defensive metrics, so he's not a goal hanger or floater. I also think we are gonna be worse than last year.  Our offense will improve with Michkov and guys like Brink,Foerester and Tippett and hopefully Frost improving, but our defense without Walker and Seeler probably not playing as well without him, will be pretty bad. We also don't have Hart, so I'm all for being as bad as possible and getting a top 5 pick.

[mojo1917]

@flyer4ever

I don't see where the Flyers have improved over last season.

I do see where New Jersey, Buffalo, Detroit and the Senators all underachieved last year.

All of those teams have more "talent" than the Flyers. If the talent develops and those teams resume their trajectories, that's 4 spots in the Eastern conference alone that the Flyers will "gain" in a better draft. Moving from 12 to 8.

Who is falling?

Well maybe the Lightning, the Caps and the Islanders...the last two have issues. The Caps are being held hostage by the Ovechkin quest- the Islanders have the prince of lies Lou Lamorello running the show. 

The Flyers aren't sneaking up on anyone, they have two mostly unproven goaltenders. They will be icing a pretty young team, the vets to be counted on all have questions save Tippett, York and Sanhiem. They're not contenders, they're a Konecny injury away from bottom 5.

This season is going to be difficult to watch if a person is entertained by winning hockey.

I think all the folks wishing for a bottom out will see their vision realized....I mean they probably won't watch it ; because who wants to watch their team eat it on a nightly basis?

As far as draft picks being used as capital for this draft.

I wouldn't have traded a 25 first rounder for any spot after 4. History has shown trades out of the top 10 are rare. I don't think the value to get to 4 would come back in that player's game.

More picks in next season's top 64 should provide the opportunity to draft more difference makers

 

 

 

Edited July 3 by mojo1917

[JR Ewing]

26 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

I just think that with  Coots breaking down and aging, do we really want to run what's left of him into the ground with first line minutes or preserve his career with less ice time. I agree Frost is not a first line center , but potentially a second line center, this is his last year to prove it. Frost has solid defensive metrics, so he's not a goal hanger or floater.

 

I agree; and think that dialing back Couturier's minutes would be beneficial. I see it more as a 1A and 1B kind of thing. Frost's defensive metrics were solid, but we should also keep in mind that he faced the soft parade. He was given, by far, the most offensive zone starts among Flyers centres, and faced lower comp.

 

Quote

I also think we are gonna be worse than last year.  Our offense will improve with Michkov and guys like Brink,Foerester and Tippett and hopefully Frost improving, but our defense without Walker and Seeler probably not playing as well without him, will be pretty bad. We also don't have Hart, so I'm all for being as bad as possible and getting a top 5 pick.

 

I think that management was genuinely surprised by the early results last year, but I think the team will look more like the one we saw after the trade deadline, which is fine. They need a high end pick to add something around Michkov; ideally a skilled centre or defenseman who blocks out the sun.

[jammer2]

16 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

We might trade those picks and players for picks in the top 10, but will other teams do that? That's the conundrum with that. Most teams with top 10 picks aren't trading down for a package of players and picks.

Yes, this is not the NFL. Its hard to get into the top 10. GMs are stingy. They know if that trade is messed up, it will be pitchforks for all. Missing on the pick is not as bad as acquiring assets and failing. Its all about keeping your 7 figure job and not taking huge risks that can ruin the gravey train. 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

You know what's crazy about Frost? He was a defensive horse in junior. He was over if the best penalty killers and defensive forwards on Sault Ste Marie. Yet, this franchise found every excuse to not bother using him on the penalty kill. Once again, skill development (and penalty killing is a skill) thrown out the window in order to accommodate system fit. No wonder why the Flyers have had and continue to have prospects who fail. 

 

And yet there's Briere giving glowing commendation to Puckhead and his development prowess in Lehigh Valley after giving him a two year deal. 

[JR Ewing]

Just now, jammer2 said:

Yes, this is not the NFL. Its hard to get into the top 10. GMs are stingy. They know if that trade is messed up, it will be pitchforks for all. Missing on the pick is not as bad as acquiring assets and failing. Its all about keeping your 7 figure job and not taking huge risks that can ruin the gravey train. 

 

Yeah. It sucks to lose, even when a team does it on purpose, and when they decide on that course, they are loathe to trade that pain for a package unless it's a ridiculous over-pay. Can you imagine the response from Philly fans if the Flyers had a brutal-enough year to get themselves a lottery pick, and then traded it away for a Konecny-plus sort of package?

 

 

[CoachX]

I think one of the things being overlooked is the Flyers overachieved last season, mostly because they hired a mouth breathing knuckle dragger of a coach. He was quite possibly the worst coach they could’ve hired and if not for him being so horrible, they most likely would’ve been near, or at, the bottom of the standings. 
 

This is all Tortrella’s fault

[jammer2]

Just now, JR Ewing said:

 

Yeah. It sucks to lose, even when a team does it on purpose, and when they decide on that course, they are loathe to trade that pain for a package unless it's a ridiculous over-pay. Can you imagine the response from Philly fans if the Flyers had a brutal-enough year to get themselves a lottery pick, and then traded it away for a Konecny-plus sort of package?

 

 

Exactly, its easy to envision from trading Konecny...a lot tougher to part with nice draft capital AND have to sign the guy to a huge 8 year deal. 

 

 Plus, like I said, there is some selfish survival involved in the decision making process. Case in point, Trevling. He knows when the Tanev and OEL deals really start to stink, there is a good chance that will be somebody else's mess to clean up. Hes doing what is best in the short term to extend his golden ticket. 

[RonJeremy]

1 hour ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

You know what's crazy about Frost? He was a defensive horse in junior. He was over if the best penalty killers and defensive forwards on Sault Ste Marie. Yet, this franchise found every excuse to not bother using him on the penalty kill. Once again, skill development (and penalty killing is a skill) thrown out the window in order to accommodate system fit. No wonder why the Flyers have had and continue to have prospects who fail. 

 

And yet there's Briere giving glowing commendation to Puckhead and his development prowess in Lehigh Valley after giving him a two year deal. 

I think Frost has a breakout year especially if he develops some chemistry with Michkov.  If we actually had a real dman to run the PP , a guy like Frost and others would have had alot more points.

[JR Ewing]

57 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

You know what's crazy about Frost? He was a defensive horse in junior. He was over if the best penalty killers and defensive forwards on Sault Ste Marie. Yet, this franchise found every excuse to not bother using him on the penalty kill. Once again, skill development (and penalty killing is a skill) thrown out the window in order to accommodate system fit. No wonder why the Flyers have had and continue to have prospects who fail. 

 

In fairness, the Flyers had the 4th-best PK% in the league last year, running Laughton and Poehling as their primary centres. Good coaches find a way to get their depth involved, and when those guys perform, it's an absolute killer to strip minutes away from them. And trust me; Morgan Frost isn't crying because he gets minutes on the PP as opposed to blocking shots on the PK.

 

 

57 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said:

And yet there's Briere giving glowing commendation to Puckhead and his development prowess in Lehigh Valley after giving him a two year deal. 

 

Is he a bad coach, because I'm not sure that I've seen anything damning with him. He's been handed middling prospects, and the Flyers are getting appropriate results so far. You can't set the world on fire if you don't at least light a match.

[ctid]

2 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

We also don't have Hart, so I'm all for being as bad as possible and getting a top 5

This! Hopefully alot of people will continue to progress in their development, meaning alot of the guys will be better than last year. But the main reason we overachieved, for me, was the Hart/Ersson tandem. With that gone, we should be safely within (loosing) lottery pick area/top 5.

Edited July 3 by ctid

[RonJeremy]

Just now, ctid said:

This! Hopefully alot of people will continue to progress in their development, meaning alot of the guys will be better than last year. But the main reason we overachieved, for me, was the Hart/Ersson tandem. With that gone, we should be safely with (loosing) lottery pick area/top 5.

And of course, the surprising play of Walker and Seeler.  Both in their final contract year had careers seasons. I fully expect Seeler to revert to his normal self without having Walker as his partner. Don't forget the Torts factor in his ability to get the most out of mediocrity . Without Torts we certainly were a bottom five.

[JR Ewing]

3 minutes ago, ctid said:

This! Hopefully alot of people will continue to progress in their development, meaning alot of the guys will be better than last year. But the main reason we overachieved, for me, was the Hart/Ersson tandem. With that gone, we should be safely within (loosing) lottery pick area/top 5.

 

You can tell that things have been rough when people talk about overachieving because the goalie who gave them a Quality Start less than half of the time is gone.

 

[RonJeremy]

8 minutes ago, JR Ewing said:

 

You can tell that things have been rough when people talk about overachieving because the goalie who gave them a Quality Start less than half of the time is gone.

 

That is called the Law of Diminishing Expectations.  It's very prevalent in today's society. 

[OccamsRazor]

 

[flyercanuck]

16 hours ago, JR Ewing said:

 

You can tell that things have been rough when people talk about overachieving because the goalie who gave them a Quality Start less than half of the time is gone.

 

 

He's the best we had in decades! ..........

[tucson83]

On 7/2/2024 at 3:03 PM, mojo1917 said:

I think the only things Danny wasn't parting with post season were the 2025 picks. 

If that's a deal breaker, and the other team insists, no sale. I think you may think the same way.

I don't think this is a case where teams were clamoring for Scott Laughton or Joel Farabee and Danny said no.

I think Danny was protecting his best assets. It seems to me from my seat here in Pennsyltucky, the 2025 picks are more valuable to him than using those assets to move up to pick a maybe.

and everyone keeps saying just lose, like how is that going to make it better?  look the devils they have been drafting top 5, they havent won jack, sens, sabres, coyotes, ducks, they havent gone anywhere like no one wants to admit that it's difficult to get a franchise changing player regardless of how you do it because of how weak the draft classes are and you have to have luck with it when it does become available as a result you can get a number 2 pick and draft jvr and nolan patricks again.

 

i dont know fans with a straight face can say that they handle a 20 to 25 years of tanking and building thru the draft? because i know buffalo, ottawa, phoenix,anaheim fans arent enjoying all this losing and not making the playoffs.

[mojo1917]

@tucson83

 

I agree with you, losing  sucks. So try not to do it for too long. 

The current league rules prevent teams from collecting talent and building quasi permanent teams.

The salary cap has made the thousandaires resentful of the millionaires while the billionaires rake in the dough.

It's responsible for 16 year championship team captains getting lowballed on their final contract; and I hate it's structure. And that it forces those decisions. 

But those are the rules and parity is valued above greatness.

Dipping into the losing column is the new path to parity.

[tucson83]

8 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

@tucson83

 

I agree with you, losing  sucks. So try not to do it for too long. 

The current league rules prevent teams from collecting talent and building quasi permanent teams.

The salary cap has made the thousandaires resentful of the millionaires while the billionaires rake in the dough.

It's responsible for 16 year championship team captains getting lowballed on their final contract; and I hate it's structure. And that it forces those decisions. 

But those are the rules and parity is valued above greatness.

Dipping into the losing column is the new path to parity.

yup and fans saying we are not going to win a cup for another 50 years, well would you rather make the playoffs for 50 years and have a chance like Florida and vegas did even though they didnt have franchise changing players or waste 50 years chasing pipe dream franchise changing player that you will probably never get and not make the playoffs at all?

Edited July 4 by tucson83

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

1 hour ago, tucson83 said:

yup and fans saying we are not going to win a cup for another 50 years, well would you rather make the playoffs for 50 years and have a chance like Florida and vegas did even though they didnt have franchise changing players or waste 50 years chasing pipe dream franchise changing player that you will probably never get and not make the playoffs at all?

And look at how many first and second overall choices are in the Florida lineup? Then look at how many first round pick players they acquired. Then look at how they did in free agency. Then look at their management. I'd you can't see the stark differences between the Panthers and the Flyers then you'll never get it. Florida has consistently looked for talent. The Flyers have consistently looked for players that fit the system. Now you are why the Panthers are further ahead of the Flyers. Talent matters. Until the Flyers understand that, you're always going to be disappointed and ask the same questions.

[J0e Th0rnton]

12 hours ago, tucson83 said:

and everyone keeps saying just lose, like how is that going to make it better?  look the devils they have been drafting top 5, they havent won jack, sens, sabres, coyotes, ducks, they havent gone anywhere like no one wants to admit that it's difficult to get a franchise changing player regardless of how you do it because of how weak the draft classes are and you have to have luck with it when it does become available as a result you can get a number 2 pick and draft jvr and nolan patricks again.

 

i dont know fans with a straight face can say that they handle a 20 to 25 years of tanking and building thru the draft? because i know buffalo, ottawa, phoenix,anaheim fans arent enjoying all this losing and not making the playoffs.

Tanking isn't 20-25 years straight. Its usually 4-5 years

 

The Devils are a young team and it remains to be seen how they will do. Last year they were plagued by terrible goaltending after a promising year, but i like their chances in the next 5 years. A lot of players only start making impacts at age 22- 23, and then have a window. Hell, the avalanche started their rebuild in 2013-2017 and only JUST won the cup in 2022. Tampa Bay started their rebuild in 2008-2013 and only just won their cups in 2020 and 2021

 

The Sabres are a comedy club organization. They drafted then put crap coaches in positions to stunt players, and then gave up on players and started rebuilding again. There is a reason buffalo is considered the eventual NHL champions "Farm team" as Eichel and Reinhart hoist lord Stanley

 

The Coyotes are also were joke organization and hopefully Utah turn that around. they rarely drafted high. Never higher than 3rd and they could never build around the players they did draft because they often traded them within 2-3 seasons of drafting them and UFA's don't see it as a desirable destination.

 

The Senators aren't the greatest run organization either. They suffered under a crap owner who is now dead and they only started rebuilding in 2018. They made some bad decisions cutting their rebuild short and trading their 1st round picks in consecutive years for guys they THOUGHT would fit like Debrincat and Chychrun(neither fit)

 

The ducks started rebuilding in 2019-2024 and have amassed some pretty nice young players and prospects and I expect they will be on the rise shortly once they solve goaltending.

 

So yea, I empathize with the fact that you got the short end of the stick and picked a few high picks who turned into duds or a mere decent player like JVR and Nolan Patrick. its incredibly bad luck.

 

I've wanted the Sharks to rebuild since I realized Erik Karlsson was now a lemon in 2020-21. im still in shock we were able to get Pittsburgh to take Karlsson at 10 million, retaining only 1.5 million AND getting their 1st round pick. I fully committed and was happy to finally tank for picks in 2022-23 and I know we will probably keep losing for 2 more years unless Will Smith and Celebrini develop waaaay faster than normal. Those two will make the team next year, but we need to give Dickenson, Musty, Chernyshov, Halttunen, cagnoni and several others some more time to develop. That and the next 2 drafts look.....well, really damn good. Hagens is legit for next draft and Mckenna is 2 years away, but has the Crosby/McDavid/Bedard hype behind him as possible generational player. He is a few weeks shy of being 3 years away from draft Eligible and he is destroying  at a young age.

 

 

Edited July 5 by J0e Th0rnton

[flyercanuck]

17 hours ago, tucson83 said:

yup and fans saying we are not going to win a cup for another 50 years, well would you rather make the playoffs for 50 years and have a chance like Florida and vegas did even though they didnt have franchise changing players or waste 50 years chasing pipe dream franchise changing player that you will probably never get and not make the playoffs at all?

 

Philly, nor anyone else, can build a team the way Vegas did. Vegas can never build a team the way they did again. So they really aren't a very good example (not sure how many times I've said this and yet you keep using them as an example, and keep mentioning they don't have franchise type players when they have Eichel and Pietrangelo both 2nd and 4th overall draft picks)

 

Florida has a franchise player in Barkov...actually they have 1st overall Ekblad, 2-2nd overalls in Barkov and Reinhart, a 4th overall in Bennett, so thanks for proving my point. Both those teams would still be looking for their 1st cup without those players. Again, thanks for proving my point. And next time you want to bring up Florida and Vegas, remember, they have several players that were taken 1st and 2nd overall on their rosters, so thanks for proving my point. 

 

Philly has already wasted 50 years NOT chasing a franchise type player, and have won zero cups in that span. Thanks for proving my point. We made the playoffs with Chuck Fletcher (worst GM ever....who you thought was doing a good job!!!) proving that it really isn't anything to hang your hat on. I'd rather have Celebrini on my roster right now than yet another 4 or 5 game memory of a beatdown. Thanks, yet again, for proving my point.

Edited July 5 by flyercanuck