mojo1917 Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 @SCFlyguy You make many good points there. I know the sports are different and a hoops team can be transformed from an also-ran into a quality contender much more rapidly than in any other sport. Those Celtics teams remained competitive after Ainge made those moves. They didn't full Penguin. I don't disagree all the way about a Konecny trade. I continue to think it won't happen though. I really think the relative success our fanbase has watched happen with the Pens twice, informs a lot of this "tanking is the only way" thinking. Personally, I thought the way that franchise behaved in pursuit of Lemieux was awful and I was still a teenager, so maybe those neural pathways have been set for too long. Combine that with the fact my favorite baseball team tried it and was terrible for decades. My thought there was no one knew how to win so when there were blips of talent it didn't matter because everyone else was used to taking beatings. The Flyers haven't been terrible until the late Giroux years. I don't want them to "Oriole" when they're trying to "Blackhawk". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FD19372 Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 2 hours ago, mojo1917 said: I don't want them to "Oriole" when they're trying to "Blackhawk". If they're going to "Blackhawk", and not "Oriole", than they should tank. The middling crap they pull, has ruined any legit chance this franchise has, of winning a Stanley Cup. A stupid sense of pride and ego, before progress, ALWAYS...has been their organizational mantra. Again, this Flyers franchise can't get out of its own way. Gary Bettman doesn't even have to work that hard, to keep this Flyers franchise down. The wounds to this franchise, have been self-inflicted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FD19372 Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 4 hours ago, SCFlyguy said: Different sport with different cap and dynamic, but Ainge helped build the foundation of that team (Brown and Tatum) with the picks and assets he got for trading Garnett and Pierce to Brooklyn. At that time, Garnett and Pierce were former champions who could have gotten the Celtics to the playoffs comfortably for several more years, but Ainge realized they were not going to win anything and it was going to be diminishing returns going forward, so he turned these aging assets into younger, better players. This is what we should do with Konecny. The Sixers haven't lost because of the Process; they lost because they squandered the treasure trove of assets they had over the years on terrible picks (Simmons, Fultz), trades (Bridges), and FA signings (Harris over Butler). And plenty of terrible coaching and flawed stars. The NBA is rigged, though. That is certainly part of it. They ticked off the NBA community, with their tanking "Process". Now, they have Daryl Morey, that further angers the NBA powers that be. They hired Colangelo, who was a conman. They're another Comcast "subsidiary", that refuses to get out of its own way. No more NBA talk from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 21 minutes ago, FD19372 said: If they're going to "Blackhawk", and not "Oriole", than they should tank. The middling crap they pull, has ruined any legit chance this franchise has, of winning a Stanley Cup. A stupid sense of pride and ego, before progress, ALWAYS...has been their organizational mantra. Again, this Flyers franchise can't get out of its own way. Gary Bettman doesn't even have to work that hard, to keep this Flyers franchise down. The wounds to this franchise, have been self-inflicted. We'll have to disagree then. Thats alright. The Orioles tanked. Fact. 25 years later they're finally getting back to relevance. Now they're good and will be for the foreseeable future. Thank God the Phillies have been pretty fun this century. Getting rid of competence and accepting losing creates more losing. The Flyers can't stay bad for long. The loser stink will get on them and people will be begging for a time when they just make the playoffs. If that hasn't happened already, they're getting damn close. More losing isn't fixing anything. They will be bad this year, then I hope that's it, I hope they start to climb out of the pit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 36 minutes ago, FD19372 said: The NBA is rigged, though. That is certainly part of it. They ticked off the NBA community, with their tanking "Process". Now, they have Daryl Morey, that further angers the NBA powers that be. They hired Colangelo, who was a conman. They're another Comcast "subsidiary", that refuses to get out of its own way. No more NBA talk from me. Is Josh Harris Comcast? I don't know so I'm asking. His group owns the Devils too my hope is the Sixer stink rubs off on the Devils and they continue to disappoint. Not that I hate them or anything, actually I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FD19372 Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 23 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: Is Josh Harris Comcast? No, he's not. He's a managing partner and part owner of the Philadelphia Sixers. Harris, Blitzer & Adelman, are the billionaire owners of the Sixers. Comcast Spectacor owns the arena, but Harris, Blitzer & Adelman are almost as bad as Comcast. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 1 hour ago, mojo1917 said: The loser stink will get on them and people will be begging for a time when they just make the playoffs. It's interesting to me that you use future tense. This describes the last 11(+) years. I otherwise get what you're saying, but since this is actually not future tense but what has already been happening for over a decade, maybe just for awhile we could try to do it by amassing actual talent. On the other hand, if we're going to continue to ignore the obvious choice when we draft and instead reach... And then continue to reach through an entire draft, then why bother with this approach? I don't have any answers at this point, @mojo1917, so any opinion (not named after the second largest city in Arizona) is equally valid/invalid. I guess I'm just expressing my surrender of hope this ownership is capable of, or even interested in, on ice success or just profit margin on the backs of gullible fans. You know, your orioles probably a bad case study, so maybe there's hope someday, but I'll probably be long gone by then. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FD19372 Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 1 hour ago, mojo1917 said: Getting rid of competence and accepting losing creates more losing. The Flyers can't stay bad for long. The loser stink will get on them and people will be begging for a time when they just make the playoffs. If that hasn't happened already, they're getting damn close. More losing isn't fixing anything. They will be bad this year, then I hope that's it, I hope they start to climb out of the pit. They've only qualified for the playoffs since 2017-18. Meanwhile, they foolishly spend up to the cap, for mediocrity..every single year. They ,in fact, can stay bad for long and have. The Keith Allen days of this franchise are shamefully and disgustedly, long gone. The ownership and management of the team, has never adapted nor seemed willing to adapt to the way the Stanley Cup is won today. The ownership and management of this team, have no shame, nor any feeling of responsibility to their fanbase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 4 hours ago, mojo1917 said: and people will be begging for a time when they just make the playoffs. I beg to differ. The loser stink is already on the Flyers. They've become one of those teams that does nothing. Making the playoffs, when 16 teams do it, is hardly something to beg for. Chuck ( arguably the worst GM in history) Fletcher made the playoffs. If he can do it, anyone can. Making the playoffs shouldn't be a franchises' goal. Not if your franchise is any good. It never used to be the Flyers. Contending for the cup, and winning it, should be the goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 5 hours ago, ruxpin said: You know, your orioles probably ISN'T a bad case study, so maybe there's hope someday, but I'll probably be long gone by then. There really was supposed to be "isn't" in that sentence. I'm having an increasingly hard time typing on my phone! I don't think it's necessarily age yet; just idiocy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzz Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 3 hours ago, flyercanuck said: I beg to differ. The loser stink is already on the Flyers. They've become one of those teams that does nothing. Making the playoffs, when 16 teams do it, is hardly something to beg for. Chuck ( arguably the worst GM in history) Fletcher made the playoffs. If he can do it, anyone can. Making the playoffs shouldn't be a franchises' goal. Not if your franchise is any good. It never used to be the Flyers. Contending for the cup, and winning it, should be the goal. You're exactly correct. Unless I'm wrong they seem more interested in becoming mediocre again. I've yet to see any moves suggesting they're will to make the needed sacrifice necessary to win a Stanley Cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 8 hours ago, ruxpin said: It's interesting to me that you use future tense. This describes the last 11(+) years. At That was purposeful. I really think this organization is at a tipping point. We're real close to becoming the Sabres with less talent. Fans hoping for losing on purpose? They will hate the result they're hoping for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 5 hours ago, flyercanuck said: Making the playoffs shouldn't be a franchises' goal. Not if your franchise is any good. It never used to be the Flyers. Contending for the cup, and winning it, should be the goal. I think you're not picking up what I'm putting down. They keep losing, there's no championships coming from that. There's wilderness and decades of futility. I've seen it. In don't want to see it again. That's what I'm saying. Be bad this year, clean up the cap- it will happen, and start not sucking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digityman Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 On 7/1/2024 at 11:20 AM, mojo1917 said: He's a good player, he's not so old that he can't be a decent piece of the team when the young core takes over. You think he can be like Simon Gagne was in 2010? Kinda what I envision if they were to keep him and let him age with the team. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 6 minutes ago, Digityman said: You think he can be like Simon Gagne was in 2010? Kinda what I envision if they were to keep him and let him age with the team. I think it depends on when the team is actually built. But I do think Travis could be a leader and decent contributor for very good Flyers teams for the next 4 or 5 years. So, if that's what you're thinking about with the Gagner comparison then yes. If they are thinking they're going to open the window for contention in 25/26 then I think signing TK is not the worst thing. One of the things I think is happening is the realization rebuilding the organization may take longer than maybe the big 3 were thinking. I think if they're committed to doing no long-term harm. I think that's why nothing of note happened this off-season and I think why the TK extension isn't complete. The comparable contracts aren't in Travis' favor, if he wants to stay, he's not getting more than Reinhart. If the FO wants to punt until later, I don't see where signing a TK extension is helpful at all. It sort of feels to me like the leadership is banking on 25 to be pivotable year in the rebuilding of the team. The margin for error seems to shrink if they sign TK. I am resigned to the idea this is going to be the way of it for a minute. It's not awesome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 On 7/1/2024 at 9:20 AM, mojo1917 said: Unless there are assets coming from not signing TK. i.e. a trade, why not keep him? Because he will cost too much for too long 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 (edited) On 7/2/2024 at 3:07 PM, flyerdog said: yeah, as dynamic as TK is, the problem with this team in the past has been getting too enamored with a particular player and holding on to them too long Do you mean Scott Laughton? asking for a friend Edited July 10 by CoachX 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 On 7/4/2024 at 9:16 PM, Fuzz said: Unless I'm wrong they seem more interested in becoming mediocre again. Why even type this? Just say it. They seem more interested in becoming mediocre again. No qualifier. BOOM goes the dynamite. Own it man! FWIW I don't think they're sitting around Vorhees saying "you know what I'd really like? to get swept in the playoffs every year for the foreseeable future". Briere and Jones were both sicko competitors, Hilferty probably ate boiled children when he was at BC/BS. Those guys aren't trying to be middle-of-the-pack anything. Skepticism is fine, there are plenty of reasons to view events with a jaundiced eye. I think questioning these guy's desire to make the club a winner again is ill-informed nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonJeremy Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 On 7/1/2024 at 11:20 AM, mojo1917 said: Unless there are assets coming from not signing TK. i.e. a trade, why not keep him? He's a good player, he's not so old that he can't be a decent piece of the team when the young core takes over. The big problem is, we don't really have a young core, particularly in the most important areas. Look at our top prospects compared to Anaheim, SJ and some of the other bad teams. We have some skilled wingers Tippett and Foerster, but Michkov is the only really hyped prospect we have. We don't have a legit # 1 or 2 center and we certainly don't have a legit # 1 defensemen and it's still up for debate if York or Sanheim are legit # 2 dmen. Our goaltending is also a question mark. Our other top prospects Luchenko and Bonk are not projected as top line guys either, I hope they exceed expectations. Luchenko is 2-3 years away from the NHL and we can't expect a rookie to save the franchise,unless we get some sort of Bedard type pick. Until we have two top centers and at least one top dman, we are just kidding ourselves. In 2025 only our pick has a chance at being top ten, so that isnt gonna suddenly put us in contention,the Colorado and Edmonton picks will be 25-30. We have to hope to finish in the bottom five this year and get a true impact player. We also have to utilize older players and get the maximum return to move this rebuild along. TK, Laughton and Risto have to go. I think we won't see any of them traded until the deadline and that's when you can get the maximum return. Draft picks won't help us from playoff bound teams, we are gonna have to get a top prospect for a guy like TK and picks for Laughton and Risto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 58 minutes ago, RonJeremy said: We also have to utilize older players and get the maximum return to move this rebuild along. TK, Laughton and Risto have to go. I think we won't see any of them traded until the deadline and that's when you can get the maximum return. Add to this perhaps Frost, Tippett and Farabee. I'm hoping Frost gets on a line with Michkov and puts up 80 points. Then he can actually be of some value in a trade. I think with TK there are intangibles, like bringing others into the fight, that I know Jonesy likes. He's said it multiple times on broadcasts. I don't disagree with you out of hand. I think if the FO is dead set on having Konecny retire a Flyer, they needed to do more this off season to make all the things work. Hockey trades where younger players bring back even younger players or picks will need to be explored. I'm 60/40 against resigning TK. I really like the player too. I think keeping him around makes the rebuilding more difficult. It doesn't appear that they're ready to turn on the jets and compete for championships, for me that would be the "math" involved in whether I think resigning TK is boneheaded or "could be worse". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonJeremy Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 8 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: Add to this perhaps Frost, Tippett and Farabee. I'm hoping Frost gets on a line with Michkov and puts up 80 points. Then he can actually be of some value in a trade. I think with TK there are intangibles, like bringing others into the fight, that I know Jonesy likes. He's said it multiple times on broadcasts. I don't disagree with you out of hand. I think if the FO is dead set on having Konecny retire a Flyer, they needed to do more this off season to make all the things work. Hockey trades where younger players bring back even younger players or picks will need to be explored. I'm 60/40 against resigning TK. I really like the player too. I think keeping him around makes the rebuilding more difficult. It doesn't appear that they're ready to turn on the jets and compete for championships, for me that would be the "math" involved in whether I think resigning TK is boneheaded or "could be worse". I agree, I think that Michkov is the kind of guy that can really work well with Frost and a finisher like Foerester. I think that can be a great line. If Frost can't step up with that duo,then he never will. If Frost scores 70-80 points and then we trade him, there is no one to replace his playmaking and them Michkovs game suffers. If we get lucky in the draft and get a can't miss center who can step right in, then maybe you trade Frost. Other than that we have no centers until Luchenko arrives in three years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 5 hours ago, Digityman said: You think he can be like Simon Gagne was in 2010? Kinda what I envision if they were to keep him and let him age with the team. Wut? They trade Gagné in the summer of 2010 to the Bolts and then he went on to win the Cup with L.A. a year or so later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 32 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: Wut? They trade Gagné in the summer of 2010 to the Bolts and then he went on to win the Cup with L.A. a year or so later. he was on the cup final team in 2010. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 37 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: Wut? They trade Gagné in the summer of 2010 to the Bolts and then he went on to win the Cup with L.A. a year or so later. Summer of 2011. Won the Cup in 2012 - played four games in the playoffs. Came back to retire a Flyer. Finished his career with Boston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 11 hours ago, mojo1917 said: I think it depends on when the team is actually built. Yes thanks for explaining what @Digityman was saying i misread that yes maybe he can. Gagne was 32 when he won a Cup and i say the Flyers window if things go as planned be 5 year and TK will will be 28 in his last year of the deal and if they resign him to the right contract 5 years yes he will be going into the last year of it and they will be deciding to either keep him or trade him for a playoff run...or as Digity said just keep him. i'd have traded him at the draft for Askarov was rumored to be on the market and well move one of my goalies is another deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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